Continued discussion ... no whiners or crybabies.

[Fianna Heneghan]

See, that just hurt my feelings.

[Lrmy]

See, that just hurt my feelings.

It shouldn't have. The game was made by Germans and is run in Germany, honestly, this isn't to bad to have only in German. Though, it would not HURT if it was in english.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Perhaps they just haven't had the time or someone to translate it over?

[Fianna Heneghan]

Perhaps they just haven't had the time or someone to translate it over?

Maybe, but I'm not feeling the love.

[Noradur]

*loves*

i think its a bit difficult to found an international society like that, though i am not really sure, and dont understand much about this kinda laws.

its nothing offending

[Juniper Onyx]

Perhaps they just haven't had the time or someone to translate it over?

Maybe, but I'm not feeling the love.

*Chester Really Loves You*

I don't think it's been an issue until now.

I didn't even know there were forms, but that was because they don't exist in the English side.

I have noticed that the Germans find it difficult to translate anything but the most important items as they come up. I can't say I blame them because they try harder than most "English-speakers" I know to translate anything into another language. Also....ever notice the huge ratio of 'Germans' to 'English' players in the game? It's like 4 to 1. Sure many do speak English, but most would rather RP in their native tongue.

Hopefully someone can translate these now.

[Djironnyma]

We simply hate all not german speaking people, you know, because some little Austrian an his politic in the history of germany.

Thats why the staff ban no-german coincidentally and thats why the society do not wand english speaking people.


oh guys, go adult.....

[Werner von Mintraching]

Thats why the staff ban no-german coincidentally and thats why the society do not wand english speaking people.


oh guys, go adult.....

[ironic]
Oh indeed?
Is the staff so broadminded?
I at my selfe hate every thing whos not bavarian. o_O
Dantagon didn't you feel it some times?[/ironic]

The fact is

[Werner von Mintraching]

Mei woast, es is hoid ned a so einfach as übasetzn. De faschtängand mi ja so schon fast ned, iaza muas i hochdeitsch schreim, sonst miassad i aloa spuin.
Nacha suidad i ano des amerikanische do schreim und sprecha heanoch ah no?
Na des bring i ned zamma.

Kund des bitte oana füa de andan übasetzn?

[Dantagon Marescot]

Thats why the staff ban no-german coincidentally and thats why the society do not wand english speaking people.


oh guys, go adult.....

[ironic]
Oh indeed?
Is the staff so broadminded?
I at my selfe hate every thing whos not bavarian. o_O
Dantagon didn't you feel it some times?[/ironic]

The fact is

[Sarcasm] Oh yes, Werner. You hate me so much don't you. Just know that I hate you back.[/Sarcasm]

[Thorvald]

No, Faladron. The problem as I see it is making the community enforce the punishment the GMs have decided on. Rather than handling it administratively, it looks like hunting season has been declared. The possibility for abuse makes me very uncomfortable.

We are not making you enforce *anything*.

the Illarion staff decided to declare the permission to kill two characters without the agreement of the players.

Let me put it into other words for you: IF there is any kind of ingame instance (like for example: TB Government, Grey Rose, Silverbrand) that for a reason catches W.E and D.F. and wish to execute them, then they are allowed to do so. Yet no one is forcing any of the ingame instances to do so ever.

Again, hearing the whole 'it's their char concept' idea:
If it is your char concept then live with the god damn consequences. That's the problem some of our players seem to have. They want to play something specific and then are not ready to stand up for the outcome or the reaction? If I pull a dragons tail recklessly, then hell, the dragon will kill me. (This happened ingame.)
If I run after the whole way after two drows who don't appear very friendly and even provoke them. Or if I make jokes about a quite powerful lich standing infront of you.
All this and more happened already ingame, done by various players. In the second two examples NOTHING, not even a scratch, happened to the chars. And for the sake of our playersbase also in the next time this won't change.
The decision that has been made for W.E and D.F is not going to be 'common' at all. But there IS a border. Point is after all that happened the last action of them was something IC , so there will be an IC punisment. MAYBE.
You have to consider that NOTHING happened yet. No government said now "Oh sweet, lets go and kill them off." This decision will hopefully only one effect: That the PO W.E. and D.F. maybe consider next times their character are doing something ingame:

"Oh wait. This might have consequences for me. Does my character want to die?"

[Jaren]

I seem to have completely misunderstood that post. I had thought originally thought William and Dominic were going to be executed by gms and no one could change that. Thorvald however completely cleared up and made things alot more understandable.


I agree now with what the GMs have decided.

[Ambrosine]

So this is an extreme case of fixing the "death fear" problem?

[Thorvald]

Hm. I guess so. But the way you put it implies again that this is now going to be a more often solution. Which is not the case. (No matter how often PO Edward tries to convince us... )

But it's not the first time at all that the char W.E. does something so completely stupid that his char should die instantly for. And it's not the first time the player completely annoys/angers/frustrates a whole bunch of other players with the whole way his character acts. And it's not like the PO is having a perfect, clean slate OOC-wise.
Again, there has to be a border. The staff has made this decision because it occured to us that there is *no* other way to show those two players the borders, than to show them that this game also, occasionally, DOES have consequences for their characters.

I remember how my character once stepped in infront of a dragon to exchange her life for the victims. This was brave of my character and it was stupid. And before *I* let my char made this decision I have been considering, that I can't do this without expecting that my character is dying now. And then I thought: "But I stick to my char concept". So the dragon agreed on that exchange and I, as the player, was very well prepared to let my character die in this moment, if the GM/Quester of this dragon would have decided so. It would have just been fair.

And then I have the other example of me playing a Lich who was just on his way to leave. And the char Samantha kept teleporting herself infront of the lich. The lich warned her and walked on. I got pretty annoyed. Samantha kept teleporting herself infront of the lich, provoked him, provoked him to fight. I went on walking, ignoring her. And at the third time Samantha teleported herself *again* infront of this obviously very powerful lich to annoy him, I engine-killed her. And what I received were massive complaints of PO Samantha. I have given her so many chances to just let her character go away unharmed, but the PO kept resisting on provoking. He said to me, that it was his char concept. Then I have to say: Yes, and this were the consequences you have to expect.
It's like Avalyon attacked the people in the Grey Rose. I don't agree with him to immediately go into engine-fights when he could avoid it, but I understand when someone provokes him that at some point he has to take action.

... anyway,.. I'm drifting off.

[AlexRose]

Why don't Will and Dom simply tell us what happened themselves?

First of all there was a buildup of complaints due to many things. There were the pking from Dom. I got found bug abusing, which was punished. Using ooc talk quite often ig, and "Basic Rule:

Illarion is a roleplaying game. Actions not related to roleplaying have to be reduced to a bare minimum. One must not spoil the fun of others playing this game."

The "Trigger" of this, was when we went to Silverbrand. I'd got the portal spell so we were seeing where we could go, and we decided to go down to Brágon's shrine. On the way we saw a dwarf. On our way back there were four dwarves: The king, a cook, a dwarfess and another dwarf. They said "We'll go mining now" and Dom asked if he could come too. The next 10 minutes was spent with one person repeatedly pushing Dom out of the door and Dom walking back in. Eventually the dwarves said "Okay you can come" and took us round. We then came to the Hall of the Axe, where Dominic said in human that it was a trap, so to make sure, Thorwald was asked to go first, and a wall was summoned on the door behind us so we couldn't get locked in. We were quite confused as to what was going on because of the large amount of German, but regardless, we then went downstairs where he took us to the prison. Now this seemed highly dubiable, so we put a wall over the entrance and summoned a portal, then removed the portal because it seemed a little harsh. Finally I decided to teleport back to Silverbrand to remove the original wall and let the dwarf out, which I did, then went back.

The dwarves then complained on their internal boards that we're impossible to punish or so (Which I personally think isn't true; I just think a dwarf and his cook can't punish a mage and a fighter). Later on the thread appeared on the forum, and on the Silverbrand internal board a post from Arien with a link saying "Merry Christmas".

That's basically it.

[Mr. Cromwell]

The punishment has been given, the judges administrating the punishment (the 'good players', apparently) are sure to be partial and two players (and the characters) have basically been thrown to the wolves.

How you can still play the punishment down with a straight face is simply beyond me.

Besides, the sticky-post of Arien, on the contrary to what you insinuated in your post, makes no reference to the point of the killers having to be part of any group or have an authorization from them. Thus, anyone could 'execute' them.



That is the aforementioned (by Alex) post on the SB forum by Arien. What the hell is that? If that kind of response doesn't give the impression of good old buddy-pat-patting, then what else would? A christmas present alright..

Your own character is entirely other case, because 1.) it was interaction during quest and 2.) you were willing to risk the character, and knowingly did it (like your post pointed out). This case is different as it is simply a conflict between two player groups. Have Dominic and William been causing havoc in the game? Hell yes, nobody is going to waste time denying that. However, everyone seems to be forgetting that the characters of the 'good players' are still keeping them as wanted for the murder of Siltaris. AFAIK, this would include the dwarves. Maybe, it would be time for the GR/SB/ETC players to drop that matter ingame before they should 'expect WE and DF to bear the consequences of their actions', because the pointless clining on to the fact that these groups want these two (and other) characters punished is probably the main contributing factor to the fact that they (and their members) are experiencing these violent problems to begin with. Of course, it is pointless to expect the 'good players' to bear the responsibility for their actions, and rather have the gamemasters punish the players (/characters) on the opposite side of the fence (because they don't have buddies handing out presents here).

What the staff does now is simply to single out two players who are disliked by others (without or with merit) and give them different treatment than anybody else 'not fearing the consequences of their actions', and that's a whole bunch of people here as it has become obvious over the past weeks. If the staff really was interested in getting players to care for the consequences of their actions, the first step would be the contrary. Stop pushing and bailing out players who can't help but to throw their characters on the way of the most formidable bad people in the game, and then be upset about it ooc ad nauseam. If someone is extremely strong ingame, maybe it's time to make concessions and try to appease them rather than try to end the conflict violently. If you want to be uncompromising (in or out of character) with it then face the consequences of that decision, or compromise. No need to punish anyone for simply playing against the wrong characters in the game.

It's a two way street. Yout can't expect to shovel shit on people and when they throw it back, demand that 'they' should be held accountable for 'their' actions, while you just shovel shit on someone else after a while. You either make everyone suffer the consequences of their actions or nobody, there's no other way to do it fairly. What this is, is simply playing (un)favourites. I might add that this is something that I don't expect from the staff, simply because I actually think more highly of you guys than that.

[Alytys Lamar]

This isn't true ????????????

[Thorvald]

Tell me how you would handle the case of W.E. and D.F., Edward.

[Alytys Lamar]

Well look at this ... I simple think this is too much... PO Magda said there was nothing, NOTHING what was wrong at this time ....

OKAY... this looks more than cynical for me

"We gave up educating with no result.
Now they will be erased.
We could have banned them but we wanted to grant the annoyed players the fun to take their frustration out on them.

GM Arien Edhel"

Sorry for not translate all, but I'm sure other can do this immediately

[Juliana D'cheyne]

I would appreciate a translation from someone?

[Mr. Cromwell]

Tell me how you would handle the case of W.E. and D.F., Edward.

I would remove the punishment, simply as nothing was violated this time, regardless of what the POs have done in the past. This is to salvage what is possible from this clusterfu.. and to prevent even more people from leaving when some 'good players' eventually put the ill-deserved punishment in action. You won't punish them for something where the other groups want to be pig-headed with their decisions but want to force others to bear the consequences of actions which partly stem from the aforementioned pig-headedness itself.

Now, if there is a broader dissatisfaction with some people and the po's of these two characters, I would somehow try to bring them together to discuss the possible problems and how things can be sorted out (if this really is necessary). The good guys now have their million-dollar chance to take over the town again anyway, and if they need a quest before they can be persuaded from getting up from their pampered collective behinds and do something, make a quest which enables them to consolidate their power on the Town. Hell, give it over to Archduke Archibald the Artistic, an NPC. The good guys can have and manage it (thus probably making TB the target of all havoc again..), when they are willing to deal with the consequences that may follow for their characters.

However, this should be the last resort (in case the 'good players' can't get anything done for real) as I've been saying all along: Lets just keep on playing it IG. If someone clouds WE and DF for their actions, I guess that they (the POs) are quite cool and can accept that much easier than a good chunk of others. There's no reason to punish them any more than that, unless they actually go about and break the rules. Which, as we all know, is not the case here.

And for the future, I would consult me first before jumping to make such rash, unfair and ill-adviced decisions. Especially during the holiday season when there is such 'present-giving' mentality in the air..

It sucks to be right sometimes.

[Thorvald]

The thing is that you don't see the whole picture, Edward. Your idea of it sounds very nice and very utopic, but in this case there is more to it than just this last complaint.
Maybe instead of us consulting you, you just come into the staff and make things better than we do.


And lastly before I'm going on a short forum break:

Even if Arien has been insensitive with his post in the SB forum, I find it amazing how it causes so much more fuss than a player calling another player 'cocksucker'. No one seems to be shocked about this. The GMs are not without failure, but neither is anyone of you.

My kudos go to Alex and PO Dom who are the two affected and did not bitch, whine or flame on the boards but instead have been talking to the staff and in the end came to another kind of agreement on this matter.

And now I wish everyone a merry christmas and we hear from each other next year again.

- Thorvald

[Ivar Kraftimarm]

Well look at this ... I simple think this is too much... PO Magda said there was nothing, NOTHING what was wrong at this time ....

i think there is something wrong in this translation. there was ALL wrong, but there was nothing, what makes a ban legitimate.

the correct translation of the sentence from magdha is like:
that terrible that action was, i don't think you can report it.
(or so)

[Kevin Lightdot]

To shed light on it then, I called him a cocksucker mainly cause it looked and was like they where punished only for attacking Silverbrand, who was generally messing with them too, as they apperantly tried to imprison them.
If you try to imprison someone, what do you think someone else will want to do?
Basicly I was(and still am) pissed about how it seems whenever someone messes with Silverbrand they get hated and fucked over by them with ooc stuff ,(Them mostly being most of the old german community including Arien).
It happened with Stephen Rothman, even though it was again Silverbrands own fault to piss Stephen off, what do you expect the leader of a knighthood to do after this? No, they whine about how we messed up their mass.

Then now for Will and Dom it appeared exactly the same thing.
First Nalcaryos with SB's dwarves come and PK Dom and whoever else in Bane, then later SB tries to jail them.. I think THEY should be the ones to live with the conciquences.

But then what really pissed me off even more is Nalcaryos gets to go around Trollsbane on a pktrip and not recieve this treatment at all, all that happened to him is eventually getting PKd back and having his wind wand nicked. Rofl, we loose our stuff often enough too, sure not wind wands, but we're not stupid enough to carry them around with these kind of things.


Apperantly they did more stuff, but hey, they already got punishment for the bug abuse, and the rest doesn't seem that horrid seeing others appear to get away with it and more without any shit.

[Nitram]

I slowly get really annoyed.

Everyone who is not effected even slightly: Shut up.

There is no point of discuss anything. PO William and PO Dominic did misstakes with their characters and they will get punished. The punishment is a permanent character. The staff did nothing but offering the possibility to let their character come to a good end.
Thats it.

Noone of you has any right to get informed what THEY did wrong. It the two player inform you, its their things. But it would be worse from the staff side to blame them public for their misstakes with all details.
That was never done and that will never be done.

You fear that this could happen to you?
There are the rules: http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules.php
If you don't break that rules nothing will happen and all is fine. If you break them once to often it can happen. Those rules are not there to be ignored. You must follow them if you want to play Illarion.

The Silverbrand stuff was maybe the "trigger" for that final punishment. But not not the reason.

Thats it.
Nitram

[Mr. Cromwell]

Because "Cocksucker" is just an expression of anger, whereas "We could have banned them but we wanted to grant the annoyed players the fun to take their frustration out on them*" is something extremely malicious, griefing and bordeline abuse of power (IMHO). Why does that cause more fuss? Because she is in a position of authority and power, and at such any misbehaviour from her is much graver threat for the entire community than someone saying "cocksucker". That while possibly upsetting the person who gets said that to him/herself (which is bad) it will leave there. When the gamemasters begin to punish people at will in unfair manners, simply because their playmates are annoyed by the power/behaviour of these characters.. do you think, that it is a slightly more serious thing?

Maybe my way is utopistic, but at least it's the right thing to do. Which is more than can be said of the actions taken by the staff recently in regards to this event.

As for me becoming a staff member, maybe. Some around there seem to need a whip being cracked at them, and since I'm already doing pretty good job with alienating the entire staff from me (:mrgreen:) I could very well be the new handicapper-general of the game.

[Korm Kormsen]

just two points:
1) we players are guests on a privately owned webserver. if the owners think, one or more of us do not fit in their private world, they have every right to any measure.
this is no democratics.

2) this thread, if not closed will be the complete mirror image of that long thread from some days ago.
just, because now players from "the other group" feel molested.

edit: cromwell, "cocksucker" said to an homosexual is more, than a mere expression of anger.

[Thorwald]

Wir Spieler aus Silberbrand haben in keinster Weise eine Bestrafung der beiden Spielerchars William und Dominic gefordert verlangt oder sonstwas dergleichen .
Wir haben nur beschloßen sie und ihre Aktionen Ig nicht mehr zu beachten .
Auch haben wir das was sich die beiden in Silberbrand erlaubt haben an einen Gm unseres Vertrauens ( natürlich vertrauen wir jedem ) weitergegeben , was das gute Recht eines jeden Spielers ist .

Das dieses Weitergeben das berühmte Faß zum überlaufen gebraucht hat dafür müßen wir uns nicht endschuldigen .
Das GM Arien uns das Ergebniss eines Staffbeschlußes ins OOCforum geschrieben hat , dafür bedank ich mich , weil es doch einige Spieler gibt die nicht im Illarionforum jeden Beitrag lesen .

Ich persönlich finde es immer Schade wenn man Spieler aus dem Spiel endfernen muß weil sie sich nicht an die wenigen Regeln die es gibt , zu halten glauben müßen .
Aber bevor solche Spieler andere Spieler aus dem Spiel vertreiben durch ihr handeln muß es eben sein .

[Werner von Mintraching]

As fare as i know:

• The Server is private financed and maintenaced from the staff.
  
  A lot of the Stuffmembers waist more than 10h WORK per day! for keep the game on runing!
  
  They offer us a produkt fore 0,- € / $ wich else would cost a lot!! of money!
  
  They did it, to make us, the community a gift, it's called Illarion, Gobiath or Gobaith and they still work hard for that gift.

At the other hand there is the problem, you can't please every one, so there will be diffrent intrestings and some time the in terest for few against the intrest of more.

If you want to get respekt there are only one way, you pai respekt back to them you want respekt from.

I dont think that they did theyr desission with out an good reason.

[Alytys Lamar]

I feel i should remind on this post

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=25776

and this one...


http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 448#480448

We should all calm down now, all is said isn't it ?