Continued discussion ... no whiners or crybabies.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:54 am

Honestly, I feel like I can't go about my life without everyone misbehaving while I'm not watching. That goes for players and GMs alike.

Obviously something very vague and sinister took place and discussing it is forbidden for some reason. I am always the one with the unpopular opinions, so I am going to give discussing this another try. I am wondering how the community at large feels about an in game witch hunt like this. I know it makes me feel very uncomfortable in light of the staff secrecy in the matter. I can't help but wonder what will happen if rich, sassy crafters become unpopular. Will Fianna be next in the GM gallows?

Maybe forum accounts will be banned for spamming and flaming (( I can only hope )) or for voicing unpopular opinions?

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:28 am

*giggles* Fianna isn't sassy! She is nice, and clever!

I dunno...I kinda want to kno what happened..it is like a car wreck, I wanna know what happened, but I can't tell and the police keep telling me to move on..but I can't.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:06 am

Vern Kron wrote:*giggles* Fianna isn't sassy! She is nice, and clever!

I dunno...I kinda want to kno what happened..it is like a car wreck, I wanna know what happened, but I can't tell and the police keep telling me to move on..but I can't.

"Move Along People......Nothing to see here!"

Brought to you by the Illarion Staff:

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:09 am

So to summarize:

The thing everyone is hyped about is not the punishment per se but the feeling of being left out upon the decision by the staff not telling the public what happened?

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:12 am

Well...I am not sure the decision was fair either, but I can;t really decide till the full story comes out...

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:15 am

Faladron wrote:So to summarize:

The thing everyone is hyped about is not the punishment per se but the feeling of being left out upon the decision by the staff not telling the public what happened?

No, Faladron. The problem as I see it is making the community enforce the punishment the GMs have decided on. Rather than handling it administratively, it looks like hunting season has been declared. The possibility for abuse makes me very uncomfortable.

Jaren · Post by **Jaren** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:15 am

I believe your missing the point Faladron. What people are hyped up about is not that we do not get all the juicy details. It is that the illarion staff seemingly has decided what to do with two characters who have no broken any known rules and the staff isn't saying they broke any rules. And that is a very dangerous precedent.

And to address what you wrote in the other thread. You said something along the lines of the Gms can do with characters whatever they want. Of course they have that power technically. But if they started doing that how many people would stay. Why would we need players in illarion?

A player who broke no rule shouldn't be punished. It is as simple as that.

If we are told that william and dominic broke some serious rules, then yes I will change my mind completely on the issue. But this seems it is more of hurt pride and frustration that the two characters are so powerful more then anything else.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:23 am

Vern Kron wrote:Well...I am not sure the decision was fair either, but I can't really decide till the full story comes out...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And when will that be?

NEVER!!!

The Staff had made it very clear that Illarion is a 'privately' owned game by the "Illarion Society" (whatever that exclusive club is), and the GM's, Devs and staff have the (Actual) right to add, delete, edit and do any damn thing they want to you, me, or any other player they want.

In short (for anyone that didn't get it yet?),

Screw the Players, Staff are Gods!!!

You don't like it, play runescape.

We all play this game because we are addicted, love the game and are willing to put up with BS like this. Nothing new here has happened, and it won't be the last time. Just admit that life sucks, you're addicted and play the "Smiling" game.

As the great American Philosopher "Eric Cartman" once said:

"Quit yer Bitchin'!!"

P.S.:
Just my Opinion, but I think I finally understand this "smiling" game.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:32 am

*cough*

No whiners or crybabies, Juniper Onyx. Please keep it clean.

Lance Thunnigan · Post by **Lance Thunnigan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:32 am

/me whines and cries like a crybaby.

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:34 am

Jaren, what makes you believe that they will handle each and every similar case as they did this time in future?

Fianna, that is not the problem in my opinion.
This is one time they decided not to dive in and just erase a character out of the game without the PO being able to explain what happened (or having to make up a story after the ban) but just a meassure to help the community "heal" itself I would say.

I dont think decisions like this will become the rule in future.

And juniper the Illarion Society (or whatever that exclusive club is) is located here:

http://illarion.org/community/Illarion_ ... atzung.pdf

You should understand some german but I will give a short explenation too:

Its a society founded to pay for the server that hosts both the webpage and the game itself and before you assume anything more about whatever "rights" or priviledges this society might have, please read the whole text.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:44 am

Faladron wrote:And juniper the Illarion Society (or whatever that exclusive club is) is located here:

http://illarion.org/community/Illarion_ ... atzung.pdf

You should understand some german but I will give a short explenation too:

Its a society founded to pay for the server that hosts both the webpage and the game itself and before you assume anything more about whatever "rights" or priviledges this society might have, please read the whole text.

That's a BS answer and you know it!

There are no signatures or names attached to that document. The one actually filed with the State would have 'Member" positions of all the "Board Members". They are the people who have absolute rule over this game and it's 'hosting'.

I've started non-profits (501 c-3), as well as for-profit groups and they are all the same. I know that whoever's name is attached to the actual 'legal' document, and maintains annual updates with the State (I assume Germany or Austria) is the 'De-Facto' Owner of the website and the game. The State doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone else, but who is on that document and those updates. Those are the ones legally liable for any 'mishap' or legal repercussions that may occur. They are the ones that have the right to do what they please.

Another quote:
"Don't Piss on my back and tell me it's raining!"

Konrad Knox · Post by **Konrad Knox** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:45 am

Why don't Will and Dom simply tell us what happened themselves?

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:46 am

The fact you write this above shows that you even have some doubts about this. Who says they won't do this again. There is nothing stopping them. This is why the players are mad all of the sudden. This is the only game I have ever played that was like this: We have no story line, but the society decides if the storyline that is happening is correct.

Jethro · Post by **Jethro** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:48 am

Im not sure what this is about. . Could someone explain to the rest of the noobies and me?

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:48 am

Well yes, one of the staff members is chairman of this non-profit organisation, so they are legally able to accept donations from supporters who wish to help maintaining server costs.

Your point being?

None of the board members have ever been anal about "owning the game and doing whatever they please" with it so why bring that up anyway.

I just wanted to point out that the Illarion Society is no "whatever club" as you pointed out...

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:51 am

Faladron wrote:Well yes, one of the staff members is chairman of this non-profit organisation, so they are legally able to accept donations from supporters who wish to help maintaining server costs.

Your point being?

None of the board members have ever been anal about "owning the game and doing whatever they please" with it so why bring that up anyway.

I just wanted to point out that the Illarion Society is no "whatever club" as you pointed out...

You brought it up...and wtf...you were the one that called it a club...err...stop posting rubbish.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:51 am

Jethro wrote:Im not sure what this is about. . Could someone explain to the rest of the noobies and me?

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=25789

This is what the discussion is about.

Azuros · Post by **Azuros** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:53 am

Faladron wrote:Well yes, one of the staff members is chairman of this non-profit organisation, so they are legally able to accept donations from supporters who wish to help maintaining server costs.

Your point being?

None of the board members have ever been anal about "owning the game and doing whatever they please" with it so why bring that up anyway.

I just wanted to point out that the Illarion Society is no "whatever club" as you pointed out...

Not exactly true...

Get along with the point Illarion belong not to the players. It belongs to the society. We maybe do desicion you do not like. Then you have just two options. You leave or you get along with it.

I don't know if the one who posted this is part of the society or not, though that is still there. If I recall correctly, Dji also posted some things similar to "they own it, get over it". I don't mean to attack Nitram or Dji, I just thought that this needed to be pointed out for the sake of the argument.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:58 am

Faladron wrote:Your point being?

.....

I just wanted to point out that the Illarion Society is no "whatever club" as you pointed out...

My point is that abuse by staff stems from a management problem.

"Crap rolls downhill"

The players are upset because the staff "delude" them to think that they actually make a difference, when in reality, the Staff just do whatever they please, when they please. Why do staff think like this? Because they have been allowed to do this for years. "Absolute Power corrupts absolutely". There is little to no concern for players.

This is the way it's been since I began.

I'm willing to accept this BS because I like the Game. Ever notice I don't give a damn about the quests? I try not to interact with Staff too much. I'm allergic to 'Power-mongering' and 'ego-mania'. I just like to stir the 'crap' once in a while.

Also, I don't see anywhere in that document you quote, anything about "how" someone becomes a "member" of the "Illarion Society" or even if it's possible. It's a closed group to anyone but the closest of friends. So, it is an "Exclusive" club.

Just my opinion, but nothing you've said even comes close to the naked truth. Think about it and STFU.

Jaren · Post by **Jaren** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:00 am

Lets keep this thread clean juniper, this is a thread in the off topic that can you write all sorts of allegations in.

I would rather get to the bottom of it because even though Faladron feels this won't become a regular thing, I am not so certain.

Once you start punishing players for not breaking any rules, you may find it easier to do it a second time and a third and so on.

And again, if with william or dominic of the staff would just say which rule the players broke then I would retract all my statements.

I am just a concerned player.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:01 am

Azuros wrote:
Get along with the point Illarion belong not to the players. It belongs to the society. We maybe do desicion you do not like. Then you have just two options. You leave or you get along with it.
I don't know if the one who posted this is part of the society or not, though that is still there. If I recall correctly, Dji also posted some things similar to "they own it, get over it". I don't mean to attack Nitram or Dji, I just thought that this needed to be pointed out for the sake of the argument.

Signed. I've seen this too many times.

If I had a nickel everytime a staff said this in the forums.......

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:03 am

Lrmy wrote:The fact you write this above shows that you even have some doubts about this. Who says they won't do this again. There is nothing stopping them. This is why the players are mad all of the sudden. This is the only game I have ever played that was like this: We have no story line, but the society decides if the storyline that is happening is correct.

I do not have doubts, I simply don't know exactly what will happen in the future and neither do you.

And if you are allowed to preach worldsend because of what has happened then why shouldnt I be allowed to argue against it.

And about the storyline part:

Yes that's true but I for one grant the gamemasters the right to
"influence" said storyline as they see fit if certain actions in-game breed miscontempt as they did with those two.

I think of the gamemasters in Illarion like a game or dungeonmaster in D&D. They have the power to decide whatever happens to your character but most of the time they dont force you to do something and you are free to do whatever you wish to as long as you dont make their set up universe implode.

This doesn't mean that they do not posess the power to do so, nonetheless they simply dont use it, and thats a good thing, I can agree upon that aswell.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:05 am

Jaren wrote:Lets keep this thread clean juniper, this is a thread in the off topic that can you write all sorts of allegations in.

I would rather get to the bottom of it because even though Faladron feels this won't become a regular thing, I am not so certain.

Once you start punishing players for not breaking any rules, you may find it easier to do it a second time and a third and so on.

And again, if with william or dominic of the staff would just say which rule the players broke then I would retract all my statements.

I am just a concerned player.

Oh well, their RP wasn't proper. I don't think you'll get an answer that is much better. Unless they clouded some one with no RP reason or were acting in extreme violence, or raping other characters, there is no reason for that kind of ban. It is for just those characters, so you know it is not a ban that is breaking any serious rules. To say they broke any serious rule would be contradicting the ban itself.

I think of the gamemasters in Illarion like a game or dungeonmaster in D&D. They have the power to decide whatever happens to your character but most of the time they dont force you to do something and you are free to do whatever you wish to as long as you dont make their set up universe implode.

Which is where you went wrong. Other players aren't forced into quests in Illarion. So a Gm and a Dm differ there. Some how people have it stuck in their heads the "bad" guys have to participate in these quests. Of course they can't play in character in quests that don't directly involve them because it ruins the quest.

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:06 am

Juniper Onyx wrote:
Faladron wrote: Also, I don't see anywhere in that document you quote, anything about "how" someone becomes a "member" of the "Illarion Society" or even if it's possible. It's a closed group to anyone but the closest of friends. So, it is an "Exclusive" club.

http://illarion.org/community/Illarion_ ... schaft.pdf

Thats the formular one has to fill in to become a member. My fault not to provide you with this:

http://illarion.org/community/de_society.php

where there are hyperlinks to both documents, my bad.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:06 am

Jaren wrote:Lets keep this thread clean juniper, this is a thread in the off topic that can you write all sorts of allegations in.

Who's making allegations?

I'm just pointing out the 'naked' truth of this situation........and every other situation like this that's happened in the past, ad nauseum. I am so sick of flaming threads like this and every other one like this when something 'upsets' the players.

Players complain.

Nothing changes.

The Game goes on.

There's always more players to replace you or me.

Staff will always have Power to do what they want.

Nothing Changes.

JMHO.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:10 am

Faladron wrote:
http://illarion.org/community/Illarion_ ... schaft.pdf

Thats the formular one has to fill in to become a member. My fault not to provide you with this:

http://illarion.org/community/de_society.php

where there are hyperlinks to both documents, my bad.

Thank you. I'll apply and see.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:14 am

Juniper Onyx wrote:
Faladron wrote:
http://illarion.org/community/Illarion_ ... schaft.pdf

Thats the formular one has to fill in to become a member. My fault not to provide you with this:

http://illarion.org/community/de_society.php

where there are hyperlinks to both documents, my bad.
Thank you. I'll apply and see.

Erm... not to start flaming in a different direction...
Those documents were in German in my world. Do they exist in English?

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:16 am

Well I guess not, as the society is constituted in germany

(I am not profund in how a society works, but maybe I just stabbed a weak spot as to offer an english form of application to raise more funds for the server?

)

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:17 am

I assume not. On the community section in the German page there is an extra link to those documents. There is not one on the English page.