Fighting System

[Cliu Beothach]

And no, please don't tell me about realism. Realism sucks.

Then why are you complaining about people being unrealistic to your thief rp

[Bloodhearte]

They're not being unrealistic, they're just being illogical...most people would wet their pants or comply with a guy holding a sharp object to their throat.

I'm not sure if Karmane experienced bad thief RP or not lately, but I can see where he's coming from...no, it isn't possible in the game now to sneak up behind somebody and stab through their throat, so I don't see the problem with cutting through a few corners.

I for one am currently enjoying my mugger-in-training.

[Cliu Beothach]

t isn't possible in the game now to sneak up behind somebody and stab through their throat

I have threatened people like this, you just have to go about it the right way.

[Konstantin K]

And no, please don't tell me about realism. Realism sucks.

Then why are you complaining about people being unrealistic to your thief rp

Excuse me, two totally different things.
I want realism in RP. But I do not want realism in client.
This client never has a chance for realistic gameplay.

I don't like just standing in combat, not doing shit, having the "game do it for me". I want action in combat. I want my gamer skills to be useful against someone who has none and chooses to become a combatant.

My question is: will you make it possible? First step would be faster jumping. Second step would be introduction of mounts - like horses, that let you "joust", slamming through the enemy at high speed, or moving several tiles away from the enemy.
Third step would be introduction of an actual hiding skill, which renders you invisible as long as you don't move.

Combat in Illarion is not fun. But it can be made fun.

[Konstantin K]

I have threatened people like this, you just have to go about it the right way.

I am faced with prejudice. Player sees me. Everybody knows that I am trouble. Player knows that I have bad reputation, and they can report me to GMs, and I will be banned. Player does not react.

Take Caitlin: I approach with death-threatening monologues, and she is just sitting by the river. Read my log. Her RP #me command.
"Either she isn't impressed or she just hasn't listen. "

Well, woman, your own fault. Next time you listen when a killer approaches. You RP a peaceful person - act like one. Either flee, or die resisting. But ignoring a killer will only infuriate one.

Take Mia Handur.

Karmane grabs the woman by the wrist, putting a dagger to her chest.
Mia Handur breaks out and runs off "Ha ha, don't even try to fulfill your robber fantasies with me".

What the hell?
By all means Karmane is stronger than Mia. One move - and her throat would be cut.

Do I need to name more names? Do I?

Fine. Okay. I will compromise some more of you.

Alora Ironforge, my favourite subject.

Everyone knows I am dressed in black usually, tight-to-body military gear, huge double sided overcoat with a deep hood. COlorful, easy to recognize. This renders for some disguise possibilities.
One sunny day, I come into town during a ban, and #me this:

Karmane enters the gates quietly, dressed in a dirty brown cloak, farmers yellow pants, a green leather hat, a merchants bag full of oranges, on his shoulder.

Karmane hunches, concealing his height, and carries a box of apples on his shoulder, concealing his face frm the sentries. He tries to mix with the crowd of market traders, and steadily makes his way between the people.

Now, Alora and Irenicus are standing at the plaza, facing me with their backs, having a conversation.

Suddenly both RP turning around, and Alora shouts

Karmane! Stop right there! You know you're banned from town.


Need more examples?

My character Trogan Darafin Wolfwood was a spy of Moshran.
While other dwarves got accepted to Sivlerbrand in a meer week, Galim and Caranthir kept prolonging Trogan's acceptance for months for some odd reason... hmmm?

What could have that been? You wouldn't think because I told them OOC that Trogan is my character, would you?

[Cliu Beothach]

I want realism in RP. But I do not want realism in client.

The client is a tool for our rp. If we use it unrealisticly then we are rping as such.

You should always give the player a chance to escape, and do not get angry when he/she does. It is ultimately there decision. If you respect this, they may respect you.

As far as the Alora/John incident I agree, you shouldn't have been notice, or atleast mroe indepth rp should have been taking to identify you.

I am faced with prejudice. Player sees me. Everybody knows that I am trouble. Player knows that I have bad reputation, and they can report me to GMs, and I will be banned. Player does not react.

You do not just get a "bad rep" from doing nothing. Somewhere, along the line you must have broken the rules. Although this does not exempt them from their RP with you, you should have been more careful. I know we can get carried away, and in the action get over-excited. Some mishaps can be understandable.

I agree with you on the idea that some people may use OOC ingame, but your demeanor on the board, and ingame character I have seem correlate rather well. My opinion is that you persona play and you do not have an "unusual character" or were you a paradigm to all the other "bad guys" in illarion. Infact, I feel you have created sub-par image for the others which relies heavily on clichés.

[Konstantin K]

ok. I'm tired of arguing. Let's just put everything behind.

[Moirear Sian]

And, as an argument for the keeping jump/push/whatever function: It helps greatly in my RP, and I'm certain it also does in other's RP.

I agree.

If "jumping", or simply pushing yourself is removed, I am going to riot.

Seriously, the "self-dragging" serves alot of purposes:
• slipping past, in between two characters standing diagonally to eachother
• "jumping", as well as, as is, also as in "jumping" in combat (surprise maneuvers)
• saving yourself out of a bugged spot by dragging your char to another
• was anybody in on the "epic quest" before the wipe? There was a cave bottleneck which—you guessed it already I hope—you could only slip through the crevices of the bottleneck with this function. A train of people was stuck in there. The whole scene was beyond hilarious.

[Galim]

I don't like just standing in combat, not doing shit, having the "game do it for me". I want action in combat. I want my gamer skills to be useful against someone who has none and chooses to become a combatant.

so you want an ooc benefit for your ingame fights? winning should depent on the skills of the characters, not of the players. if you think like that, wrong game for you. play counterstrike than, but not illarion.

and no.why should fighting make fun in illarion? read the starting page. one of the first things written there is "this game is NOT about fighting". so again, accept that, or search yourself an other game.

and no, me and caranthir didn't know that trogan is your dwarf. it took so long because just the king was able to accept dwarves at that time, and when not the king, than, later, caranthir. but they both were very busy or never around. and trogan got rejected because of your rp with him. you used an "key" with him and told us he got it from tialdin and that tialdin knows about him, we asked tialdin ig and he never heard of you. so you got rejected because of lying, involving the king and entering silverbrand without alowness. (and that you "played" that you have a key was bad rp, sorry.)

[Alora Ironforge]

Now, Alora and Irenicus are standing at the plaza, facing me with their backs, having a conversation.

Suddenly both RP turning around, and Alora shouts

Karmane! Stop right there! You know you're banned from town.


Need more examples?

Actually here's EXACTLY what happened, with your little OOC to let us all know what your doing:


Karmane is cloaked in a dirty brown merchant coat and moves along the walls, blending in with the crowd. ((Dont even think of recognizing me unless ur char has like over 10 perception )).

John Irenicus draws.

John Irenicus: Stop

Alora Ironforge: hmm

Rand Kalhan Al'Vega: I didn't think he would come

Kasume: Ooh...

Kasume: Droopy man!

John Irenicus: Stop I said

Alora Ironforge: What is it john?

Karmane: me?

Karmane: Me, sir?

John Irenicus: Of course you

Karmane stops.

John Irenicus: You are the banned one

Alora Ironforge: what is it John? Do you know him?

Kasume: Quite suspicious of a man to walk so abrubtly with full black capes thrown over your head.

Alora Ironforge looks at the man.

John Irenicus: This is Karmane

Alora Ironforge reaches to remove his hood.

As i believe John had over 10 perception.
Anyway...good to fly back into the forum and see you throwing lies around again..just like old times!
Stop trying to make it out that you were hard done by! Everyone played your stupid games....all your tricks about boats or disguises or whatever the hell you came up with.

Oh yes and let us all never forget the great magic you had ingame with your wonderful ways of ditchin a RP in town while 12 stood around you....i believe it went...

Karmane wraps his coat around himself and vanishes into a cloud of smoke.





*kisses* All my best!

[Bloodhearte]

In regards to Karmane holding a freakin' weapon to victims, and the victims responding with "I-too-brave" nonsense...yeah, the character deserves to die in game for ignoring a killer like that. They bring it on themselves and have no room to complain.

I RP'ed with Karmane a lot, both with a character on his side and against him. Not once did I happen to have a problem with how he role plays.

As for the situation with being seen in disguise...Karmane shouldn't have used the OOC tag ((Dont even think of recognizing me unless ur char has like over 10 perception )). Chances are he'll be seen whether the guy has over 10 perception or not...he can cheat. Players can't find out other player's perception, so whether he has 1 perception or 20, he'll choose to see you to stir things in motion for his character against your own.

Besides, no matter how much "perception" one has, a disguise can fool pretty much anybody, unless something very unlikely happens (you get face to face with the seeker, you act obviously secretive, etc).

@Galim - Actually, it would be more fun to have more influence over your own character in combat.

But you say there would be OOC influence for victories? Well, I'm sure we use OOC means to gain the skills necessary to fight...we use OOC means to play our own characters...we use OOC means to use the Ctrl+click function to begin fighting...

Why don't we just stop letting all characters be controlled by players, assign them NPC roles and do nothing more than watch them?

There's player influence all the time, and there's nothing wrong with it so long as it doesn't interfere with another person's fun.

[Moirear Sian]

I agree with Bloodhearte here.

Now please; somebody.
Lock this topic. Lo-o-o-o-ock.

[Keikan Hiru]

Back to the fighting system:

Intresstingly Galim and Bloodhearte are saying the same, unfortunatly both dont understand the point of the other.

Our characters decide when to start a fight, the only "ooc influence" at this time is our finger clicking ctrl.
But in the end it is the same as rolling the dice in an old school rpg, and you dont lable these dices as ooc there, now do you ?

It represents a action of our character, it sums up all his attributes and abilties, and compares it to his target and vice versa.
There isnt much ooc involved into this action.

On the other hand,
if we require real player skills, like clicking in a time frame of 5ms, or having 5000apm's (actions per minute) to just stay up par in Illarions-Combats, that we are greatly decreasing the fun of everybody.
Because just those who can spend hours a day, training thier real life Illarion-Combat skills, we can really just turn our back to this game and play a first person shooter or real time strategy game.
Players like me, with crappy 56k modem connections, will be hopelessly underpowered just because we might have a higher ping.

Illarion has to stick combatwise to its roots.
"I am attacking the fierce Goblin that jumped out of the darkness. Now let's rool the dice!"



So I close with Blootheartes words:
"There's player influence all the time, and there's nothing wrong with it so long as it doesn't interfere with another person's fun."

Edit:
To fullfil the circile:
"Jumping" is heavily bound on players reaction time and ping, thats why never balanceable this way as real feature of combat.
Aside, "dodging" is already calculated beside "blocking", "missing" and "parrying" a blow.

[Konstantin K]

so you want an ooc benefit for your ingame fights? winning should depent on the skills of the characters, not of the players. if you think like that, wrong game for you. play counterstrike than, but not illarion.

and no.why should fighting make fun in illarion? read the starting page. one of the first things written there is "this game is NOT about fighting". so again, accept that, or search yourself an other game.

LOL, dude you're such a sad hateful little man.
I do play another game. In case you didn't notice, I don't play Illarion. I mostly observe the forums.
But on the other hand, this game is not about crafting either, and becoming a grandmaster smith ASAP. And not about herb lore. And not about mining, and not about fighting. Then what the hell is it about? If you prohibit me to have fun in the way I like it?

Fighter likes to fight. Crafter likes to crafter. Whiner likes to whine.

If fighting is not the point - why the smile do we even have weapons?
Galim, you're seriously pissing me off with this crap. I can't even logically think of how to reply to your flaming. I'm just blowing up.

Apparently, it's you who got no idea what Illa is about. Contract killers existed in Illarion since forever. Thoer, Dax, Cody, Bloodhearte, Xerake. I am simply continuing a tradition.

Dude, just please, don't bother replying to anything I post. I am a fool. I post nonsense. Don't lower yourself to my level. Just shut it. I'm wrong. You're right. Okay? Okay.

[Bloodhearte]

I agree with you there Keikan (with me also being one of the 56K modem underpowered ).

But even with my equally crappy modem, I have to confess: jumping helped a lot, and when other players got the hang of the "pattern," they could go fast too. Not necessarily in a combat oriented context, the freedom of movement was enjoyable.

But I noticed that it is now possible to escape from monsters without jumping...so I wouldn't cry too much about the jump feature.

Galim,

This isn't meant to be a criticism of you, the person, but - don't be a weenie. Combat is a huge thing in Illarion, whether you want to live a "peaceful" life or not. No, fighting shouldn't be a requirement, but it's popular for the same reason Grand Theft Auto is popular.

In the Real World, any douche can go out and plant some seeds, talk with strangers, and get drunk at some bar. It can be fun at times, but for some of us...boooring.

But in the Real World, you can't go out and beat up people without major consequences and/or liability expenses (:lol:)...in Illarion, you can.

[Misjbar]

LOL, dude you're such a sad hateful little man.
I do play another game. In case you didn't notice, I don't play Illarion. I mostly observe the forums.
But on the other hand, this game is not about crafting either, and becoming a grandmaster smith ASAP. And not about herb lore. And not about mining, and not about fighting. Then what the hell is it about? If you prohibit me to have fun in the way I like it?

Fighter likes to fight. Crafter likes to crafter. Whiner likes to whine.

If fighting is not the point - why the smile do we even have weapons?
Galim, you're seriously pissing me off with this crap. I can't even logically think of how to reply to your flaming. I'm just blowing up.

Apparently, it's you who got no idea what Illa is about. Contract killers existed in Illarion since forever. Thoer, Dax, Cody, Bloodhearte, Xerake. I am simply continuing a tradition.

Ever heared of RP? And how you can use the weapons in your RP? How you can use the killing of the monsters in your RP? And how you can RP jumping? I thank you very very much.

[Konstantin K]

Uuuuh... no?

[Mimblethorp]

Ever heared of RP? And how you can use the weapons in your RP? How you can use the killing of the monsters in your RP? And how you can RP jumping? I thank you very very much.

Come now, the whole reason for the Stats and Ctrl Click system, etc... is to avoid - to quote a popular Pen & Paper RPG that shall remain nameless in order to avoid copyright infringements - the classic Cowboys & Indians problem of "BANG! I got you!" "No you didn't, you missed." problem. RP can actually be aided quite a bit by game mechanics.

[Misjbar]

That is somewhat what I meant Mimblethorp. I always have problems putting it into words. Thank you.

[Nandus]

I believe it's good so, how it is.

But although I give a porpose for duells (for hunting, it's to complicated):


If you duell someone the game began to be roundbased, so none of the poor 56K-user (I'm so lucky that I have ADSL since February) would be "pinged-out".

The other charactes see a cloud like in "The Sims", or could see the two "dancing" around the others and only see, when one hits the other.

So you could involve complex manovers.



But as I said, I belive it's okay like it is. And this system would be much to complicated to programm in at this time, if you ask me.


--- Philipp

[Estralis Seborian]

3. Insults

All insults directed at the person behind the screen, and not the character, are frowned upon, and will not be tolerated. Neither will all racist and/or sexist remarks.