on magic and armor

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:53 am

i read several postings in the past few threads (mostly about "PKing"...) where a thing was mentioned which seems somehow a potential source of troubles (as i know it from all other online-rpg's i've played

):
the use of magic and armor.

magicians (or any individual which performs some level of magic) should not wear heavy armor, whereas fighter with armor should not be able to cast magical spells. so far, i agree, that isn't the problem. the problem occures somewhere else: how should magicians ever be able to go into a dungeon or defend themselves against fighters?
yesterday, i saw a troll for the first time in my live (in illarion - i mean, i made the graphic... i saw them before

), i didn't know how strong they are, my char is a low-armored (human) magician without any mentionable fighting (or parrying-)skills, my first reaction was to RUN like hell. but somehow i wanted to kill this damn monster; running and casting is nearly impossible, so i tried to get some metres away from the beast and cast some spells at him. i had not much time, the first ice-bolt didn't hit, the troll was standing nearly next to me, i decided to run. after some steps i again had enough distance to try another ice-bolt. i missed again. this repeated several times, i drank a mana potion, and someho i managed to cause the troll to stand still behind some stones. that was his death *g*.

however, this shouldn't be the life of a magician. whenever i want to kill a monster seriously, i have to wait until it attacks me directly (=standing next to me, beating hell out of me

), and then fire some spells at him. that's not how i think it has to be. think about it (i'm not sure how much magicians are there around in illarion who have fighting experiance...).

martin

Novus · Post by **Novus** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 8:01 am

That is SO true. We shouldn't weaken mages even more than they are, already.

Novus, part-time wizard

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 5:39 pm

Magicans,

Greetings all. Here is my input so brace for a long post AGAIN.

Fighters are the brunt of a force. They are able to battle close even hand to hand and they use armor to protect themselves from heavy attacks, using skill to dodge whatever else comesa thier way. Some warriors Don't wear heavy armor for "absorbtion" protection and use thier quickness to avoid attacks while fighting, though most of them would use quick weapons instead of large Axe or swords.

Magicians have Many offensive magics. They are a great Allie in the field. Very few magicians wear armor because they must move about to avoid beingattacked since thier skills are concentrated on learning and substaining thier magic which takes alot of time. A true wizard would focus more on his magics than on standing still fighting for sure. He may practice avoiding "dodging" but surely he would not carry a shield do to the needed use of his hands and that it would take practice to weild such a thing "not to mention strength which some magicians lack" It is not to be said that a Magician CAN'T learn parry and such, it would just be unlikely.. and those who do are considered Fighter mages or warlocks. A magician would be more powerful than a warlock with spells of course, since he spends time training in spells when the warlock would be training in shield or sword ect..

Thats my explanation of how I see it. So how could a simple magician fight without having to stand next to an enemy and without comprimising the layout so that they will be too powerful to control.

First of all the parry and armor has been done nicely thank you, however how about a dodging skill? Some people prefer two weapons without a shield. Some people are not fighters at all but would be able to avoid attacks. I would think Dodging wouldn't be nearly as good as parrying and you couldn't dodge AND parry so that would keep down the limitations.

How is this for an idea.. dodging maxxed would be equal to parry at 75% so obviously a shield is much better protection, but for those whom don't use a shield it will be enough to survive. When it comes to the more difficult enemy's a magician should go with friends.. however Illarion is a place where Legends are made.

Once the attributes are worked out for magic "and I think magic should have alittle more UMMPH to it. Maybe certain spells work better on certain things. Perhaps a web spell to slow creature's movment would help. Maybe a force spell "push spell" to knock a creature back.

These are simple solutions and I think it would work. Your the Gods please consider.

Oh and while i'm at it... can I have a pet rott worm? I promise to feed him! =)

martin · Post by **martin** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:47 am

hi dax

you're right with the majority of your points. but there are some "technical" things:
first, a "web-spell" (or something) which slows creatures down would be nice. but: how to hit a target which moves around? there's the problem that you mostly don't hit it at all, since it is moving, and you're not sure on which field it currently is etc.
i thought of something like a "magical circle" or something, which could be casted around myself (the mage

) and no creature is able to pass through it. it lasts for a certain time and is quite expensive on mana. spells could be casted through it.
+ monsters should chose their targets not by strength or constitution (or something), because in this case, mages are always the ones to be killed.
+ there should at least be *some* balance in the fighting strength of mages and fighters. mages are mighty - or should at least be so

- but when the demon comes, beats you 1 time and you are a cloud, how should i be mighty then? at the same time, a fighter tands next to it, kills it and didn't suffer from *any* damage...?

don't get me wrong - i don't want mages to kill everyone and everything on their own (for killing shouldn't be the only point in the game

), but i don't want them to be dead all day long, when fighters go haveing a beer at the tavern

. the biggest monsters should only be killable by a combination of mages and fighters (+the help of others, of course).

however, i hope you got my point. (this discussion appears everywhere in every online-rpg...)

martin

Nanuk · Post by **Nanuk** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 9:14 am

I rather think we have to ask ourself if the combat strength of the warrior isn't too good than to say we have to increase the one of the mage. If a worrior can beat the demon on it's own than something is wrong for sure.

But maybe the life of the mage can be more easy when the system to use magic is more practical. If there would be some kind of hotkeys where you can save a spell to easiely let it loose, or a homing missile spell, where you do not have to target your victim, than life gets more easy. But I think we have to be carefull with this as it might make the mage too powerfull.

Nanuk

martin · Post by **martin** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 6:59 pm

yep, nanuk, i agree with you.

if you have a look at UO, targeting a creature is quite easy (at least once you have pulled "out" the status-bar).
similar to that, i'd suggest the following:
when a mage holds a certain weapon (staff) in his hands, the player can "attack" his target as usual, with a strg/crtl+mouseclick on the target, and whenever this happens and you cast a spell without specifying a target (that means: just chosing the runes you'd like to cast) the spell is casted on the attacked creature/person.

wouldn't that be nice? (and i think it shouldn't be too complicated to implement...).

martin

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:18 pm

Uhm yeah, now it is possible to cast on places too - gotta make it that way that this stays possible. Another possibility would be a third menu : Now we have "show inventory" and "show skills". Idea : "Person list" that lists Persons and monsters in range of the current spell.
Perhaps another key can be selected for selecting a target for casting ?
The bad thing of this "sphere of invincibility" should be that it cannot move in it. One could use it to trap people/monsters too, that leaves time to run... And a "barrier" spell that creates an unpassable line (or in weaker form : a single place) would be nice too. These can last as long as fire / ice fields do, or a littl bit shorter - or can have a counterspell perhaps : When the spell-skill of the counterspell-caster is better than the skill of the spellcaster, the effect vanishes...
*g* hope such stuff can be made later on...

(Edited by Damien at 8:25 pm on April 16, 2001)

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 8:58 pm

A modification of magic strength by the armor worn sounds reasonable. People wearing full armor will make less damage than today, but without armor, it will be increased.
Currently, you can only cast a spell at a field. The monster takes damage, if it is currently on this field. In future versions, it should be possible to specify a monster as a target.
The attack-staff to specify the target sounds good to me.
@ Martin: You haven't played for a while. I don't think that there are fighters, who kill the daemon without taking damage. I even doubt, that there is any player who kills it alone without dieing.

Isn't any mage using the paralyze spell, to freeze monsters before attacking?

martin · Post by **martin** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 10:10 pm

i didn't see the demon for a while, that's true.

and just a *g* to your comment.

martin

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Mon Apr 16, 2001 10:36 pm

Demon? Is that what that thing is. Remindfs me of a stuffed toy I had as a kid.

Anyhow liek I psoted elsewhere, remeber it's a game and try not to get TOO complicated

Ok Martin yes I like your points.

You mention web spell and not knowing where to cast it cause monsters are moving..

Well that's alittle skill involved isn't it? No fun if you make it too easy.

Challenge is what I need, but first we need the tools.

HOw about more monster Spawns? there aren't alot around and I think the spawns are alittle to quick. So slow down the spawns and increase the number

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:56 pm

The spawns are not too quick. If there were more spawn points around, they could spawn slower... I kinda like the Idea of a horde of Ogres !!!

That web spell : Could it hit not one, but several spaces ? about 3x3, or up to 5x5 ? Druids could use kind of such spell in nature magic ways, increasing the grass / moss growth on the ground... creating a temporary hedge from rocks... perhaps with thorns as equivalence to damage doing field spells ?

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:19 pm

Interesting idea damien.

I was under the impression druids should not have magic, however now that you bring it up..

Perhaps druids have diffrent magic

I don't mind if druids have no magic because they make potions, however potions are a great defense not an offense.

Oh yea Bror, I can kill Demon alone without taking damage... however it involves a few techniques. Sometimes I am hit because it's hard to keep it up.. and the rott worm is a nightmare.

I can't beat him without dying unless I use two shields. He hits very fast and hurts ALOT I think this is due to the Fist's issue that has been brought up.

Is it possible for the hard creatures to give a bit more of a prize?

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Wed Apr 18, 2001 7:59 am

Yeah, even spiders and beholders do HELL damage... Perhaps one could make a undead cave, to fight the nice red skells, without getting eaten by spiders and beholders ? Hehehe... a CEMETERY ! We need one.
Druids are a kind of nature priests, aren't they ? Hehe...
And the Rotworm , yes, he is much more powerful than the demon - i always run to a safer place when meeting him. Dammn, Weapon skills, when high, sink more than i can train them up... must train more, that means gotta talk less. Oh dang... Goldsmithing is a problem, one cannot bring that up to a good level anymore. Noone has nuggets, they sell theirs quick... ahrgh... hehe.
Mages need cool looking armored robes, robes from different leathers... *ggg* yeah, thatsit...

An idea :
What about the "hard" creatures do a bit slower damage, and a bit less, keep their good hit chance, but have more live energy, perhaps a regeneration ? That way a group can stand such a beast without the people dying all the time, and the backmages have more time to heal... And when the beast regeneration almost compensates the damage taken from only one enemy, some more people are needed to kill it. THAT would ensure good group play i guess

(Edited by Damien at 8:01 am on April 18, 2001)

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Wed Apr 18, 2001 8:36 am

Your proposal for strong monsters sounds reasonable. I've just changed the daemon to this and it could be tested the next server restart.

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Sat Apr 21, 2001 2:52 pm

The parry meter should rise slower for the sorcerers.
This is so they dont get way too strong...
Anyway, You can make a good fighter/sorcerer.
I have done it myself, and if some people will go out and TRAIN they can get stronger if they are weak mages.

Druids have no magic resistance which is the pits for us.
One good way to beat me is with magic.
Also, MAKING MORE POTION BOOKS.
We have what, 5 potion books and 4 combos.

Right now im trying to figure out what my best way of approaching things are,
Since i get killed easily now that my parry dropped so stinking low.

The PK's if you noticed are all sorcerers and they HURT.
Sorcerers arent as completely helpless as you guys are describing them to be.

Also we need more SHEEP.
I can hardly find one out there and Fluffy is my freind.

So bror make magic resistance for us druids and please make the sorcerers slower at gaining attack/defence.
A good way is when they dont have a profession,
They rise moderate-to-slow in all things.
When they gain a profession, however, their skill rates become more complex.

These are all of my ideas.
Oh yeah, Bror, if i meet you online i have 96 ingots or so to give you;)

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Sat Apr 21, 2001 4:32 pm

Druids have magic resistance.
All skills rise equal for each profession right now. Anyway mages already have lower parry, because they stay away from the enemy and cast from the distance, so there is less chance for them to rise it. If they engage in close combat, they are fighters and are supposed to have high parry.

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:49 pm

there are two things i think would me good additions
1. magic using monsters......pretty self-explanitory i guess, but all of the monsters we have are just physical attackers and i think a magic user or two would be a nice change of pace.
2. i really wish to see the lock on system for magic users because no matter what some people think magic users are at a severe disadvantage over fighters and expecially long distance people like archers.

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:26 am

> Anyway mages already have lower parry, because they stay
> away from the enemy and cast from the distance,

hehe, well that's theory. the experiment shows, that monsters and enemies do not respect a mages command to stay away from him

.

this is the only "problem" i wanted to show you, when i started this thread: a fighter stands still and kills or runs away and lets life. a mage runs away and... well, tries to cast. or he stands still and... dies! staying some fields away and casting some magic on the enemy isn't possible at all (for all monsters are moving...). there should at least be a theoretical solution to this problem, which is implemented later. the sooner we are going to discus this problem, the better and more advanced the solution will be in the end.

martin

Novus · Post by **Novus** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 9:05 pm

On potion books...

Perhaps apples, cherries, and lettuce could be made into ingredients for druidic potions. It would greatly increase the variety of possible potions, without requiring new graphics.

Novus

Bror · Post by **Bror** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:00 pm

There are already graphics for all 32 ingredients in gthe game, but no potions to use them

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:51 pm

Potions ideas : Poison to make poison arrows (not only drink it hehe)
Plant growth Potion - creates a hedge that lasts about as long as a field spell and blocks the path
hedge-Away-potion - erases a "summoned" hedge.
Strength potion - makes additional damage in close attacks for a short while. Can perhaps cause addiction (damage after effect ends )
Speed potion - increases the users walking and doging speed for a short while. Can perhaps cause addiction (Damage after effect ends )
Regeneration potion - greatly indreases the healing speed for a short while, but the food use too.
Different monster potions : release weak monster versions (animals only) that attack all but not the potion user (possible ?)
Throwing bomb - like a fireball. Use with target, or equip as weapon.
Throwing Poison bomb - makes a poison explosion the same way.
Burn oil - creates fire fields on the places where it is used on.
Smoke bomb - fills the screen part with smoke for a short while (five seconds or so ) that hides all people inside. Good for a runaway from monsters and others.

Dax · Post by **Dax** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 1:05 am

Nice Ideas..

I was intrigued by the throwing bomb *g*

I like the idea of something like that being very hard and long to make.
perhaps something like a improved fireball on the space it hits and fire field spells surrounding the area it hits but they only last 1/10 the normal time *gg* sounds like fun to me.

Captain Kirk · Post by **Captain Kirk** » Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:28 am

Hallo

yeah let us throw pots *g*

btw u saw the fightin skill of mages the last days ?? they are fallin like rain
try to raise them again :-(

Bye
Read ya
MfG

Capt. Kirk

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Sat May 05, 2001 5:39 pm

If we DO have MR then why cant i gain any?
Ask Novus, my meter stays at 0 no matter what 100 spells i/him cast on me.
Even my newbie mage char. has MR but I dont.
Anyway the mages are super strong and they kick my butt nowadays.
Maybe ill just return to being a shopkeeper

Nah thats too boring.

Erdrick · Post by **Erdrick** » Sat May 05, 2001 5:46 pm

Damien you are indeed a great mind.
Bror read those potion ideas they are AWESOME.
Especially posion arrow and the bomb thing
And about the poison... maybe it should hurt us less but it will last a while?
It seems more RPG like that way.
And the pots... Can we use them like empty bottles except its reusable?
And for my shop... Being able to put potions on counters!
Now I thought Damien was a Mage... guess not.