Lyrenzia Foundation: Judicial trial / Gerichtsverfahren #6
Moderator: Gamemasters
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Caranthir the great
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:06 pm
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((Sorry for the OOC, McFly; but leave this untouched please.))
((Its called roleplaying; Action-consequence. You cast flames into building. How would it be, that I am hurt by those flames, but our (note) wooden floors or the wooden tables/bookshelves would not have been damaged. You make an action, think about it first. It's cowards way out saying 'but hey my flames float'. If you decide to cast flames on a building, he might not agree that on what you tought about it. So basically if you are casting the fields above the ground, you better say it each time you cast a flame or let people know otherwise, if you don't and still suppose that people will reach the way you want to, you are wrong. And the ones thinking that your flames are the usual kind are right. Period. No way out of that.
It is gametechnical reasons that we have not been able to show the damage, however the shop has been closed since the incident (I.E we have not done any business there), and we are not going to keep the money by ourselves (werther fooser would give it or not, we will donate the 25 ignots somewhere anyways, we won't chicken out.)
So basically, you hit me with a sword, and I tell you that I lost a hand. I would be entitled to ask in-game compensation, as long as it would affect my roleplaying (So I would have only one hand for the rest of my playing- of that character..)
Sorry if it sounded as if I was teaching you or something, but this is my opinion about the matter.
@Gro'bul, yeah. Perhaps so, but people don't react to it, so nothing will happen. We (characters) reacted, shit happened to character Fooserjohn, but thats how it goes. If no-one reacts, nothing happens.
Player of Caranthir.))
((Its called roleplaying; Action-consequence. You cast flames into building. How would it be, that I am hurt by those flames, but our (note) wooden floors or the wooden tables/bookshelves would not have been damaged. You make an action, think about it first. It's cowards way out saying 'but hey my flames float'. If you decide to cast flames on a building, he might not agree that on what you tought about it. So basically if you are casting the fields above the ground, you better say it each time you cast a flame or let people know otherwise, if you don't and still suppose that people will reach the way you want to, you are wrong. And the ones thinking that your flames are the usual kind are right. Period. No way out of that.
It is gametechnical reasons that we have not been able to show the damage, however the shop has been closed since the incident (I.E we have not done any business there), and we are not going to keep the money by ourselves (werther fooser would give it or not, we will donate the 25 ignots somewhere anyways, we won't chicken out.)
So basically, you hit me with a sword, and I tell you that I lost a hand. I would be entitled to ask in-game compensation, as long as it would affect my roleplaying (So I would have only one hand for the rest of my playing- of that character..)
Sorry if it sounded as if I was teaching you or something, but this is my opinion about the matter.
@Gro'bul, yeah. Perhaps so, but people don't react to it, so nothing will happen. We (characters) reacted, shit happened to character Fooserjohn, but thats how it goes. If no-one reacts, nothing happens.
Player of Caranthir.))
Last edited by Caranthir the great on Wed May 14, 2003 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bloodhearte,
Magical Flames no matter how they are cast damage everything around them. Their heat alone because of their enormous size damages the vicinity that they are in. It matters not whether they are "floating". Do not think me unknowledgeable. Though I do not flaunt my magical powers and use them often does not mean that I have none and do not know about magic.
To All,
Do not let Cain's words affect any of you. He is going through some troubles he has created himself. Some time ago he decided to throw his frustrations at me, and now he has targeted some others. The best course of action is to ignore and forgive.
Wisdom shroud you all,
~Elaralith, Priestess of Elara~
Magical Flames no matter how they are cast damage everything around them. Their heat alone because of their enormous size damages the vicinity that they are in. It matters not whether they are "floating". Do not think me unknowledgeable. Though I do not flaunt my magical powers and use them often does not mean that I have none and do not know about magic.
To All,
Do not let Cain's words affect any of you. He is going through some troubles he has created himself. Some time ago he decided to throw his frustrations at me, and now he has targeted some others. The best course of action is to ignore and forgive.
Wisdom shroud you all,
~Elaralith, Priestess of Elara~
Caranthir is using the delayed payment problem to cause even more trouble. The simple fact is that I cant 'appease' people that I cannot see. And that is a typical Elaralith comment, trying to bring down others because they do not agree with her. This is absolutely no place for your comments, you need to learn when to shut your mouth, your blessings are curses in disguise
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Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
Cain sighs as he writes a heart-felt message, the contents clearly apologetic.
I knew that at some given point, Elaralith would use my words here to prey on my frustration. I assure you, the anger I have towards Elaralith and her crude attitude towards normal civilians is much different from that I have towards this case. Do not confuse these two instances, as that is what Elaralith is trying to make you think. I am frustrated with Elaralith because of the way she treats people who are not in power, thus why I take such frustration out on Elaralith. I do not know why she thinks me so low a person that she must belittle me, as she does so many, but please do not trust her words.
I apologize to all who have read my last message, as it was quite a frustrated rant. It is a combination of many things that have happened in the past with many of these people that has caused my attitude to taint. I was inadvertantly influenced by my surroundings of late and in that sense, I changed temporarily. Influence is a powerful thing, when one is influenced, their views are sometimes no longer their own. I apologize again for my rant earlier, though my opinion on this case still remains unchanged.
Sincerely yours,
Cain S. Freemont
I knew that at some given point, Elaralith would use my words here to prey on my frustration. I assure you, the anger I have towards Elaralith and her crude attitude towards normal civilians is much different from that I have towards this case. Do not confuse these two instances, as that is what Elaralith is trying to make you think. I am frustrated with Elaralith because of the way she treats people who are not in power, thus why I take such frustration out on Elaralith. I do not know why she thinks me so low a person that she must belittle me, as she does so many, but please do not trust her words.
I apologize to all who have read my last message, as it was quite a frustrated rant. It is a combination of many things that have happened in the past with many of these people that has caused my attitude to taint. I was inadvertantly influenced by my surroundings of late and in that sense, I changed temporarily. Influence is a powerful thing, when one is influenced, their views are sometimes no longer their own. I apologize again for my rant earlier, though my opinion on this case still remains unchanged.
Sincerely yours,
Cain S. Freemont
Dyluck, I am not the same person I used to be and nor are you the same person you used to be. I was upset about those ingots, and you got them back for me. I thanked you and that was that. I never really judged the halfing, I merely became upset. It's not like he was punished or anything anyway, at least not that I remember, you just got my ingots back from him. When someone steals from someone they are a thief. If they return what they stole, they can be forgiven. It's not a matter of judgment but a matter of words. I wouldn't have lied about something like that and never will. It takes something like Lyrenzia to destroy trust and faith.
If I do not have the power to get revenge then I try to be prepared and stronger for the next time it happens, if it happens. The people who testify against Fooser seem to be powerful enough to take revenge... I thought this isn't what Lyrenzia was about anyway... an alternate to revenge for bitter people.
If I do not have the power to get revenge then I try to be prepared and stronger for the next time it happens, if it happens. The people who testify against Fooser seem to be powerful enough to take revenge... I thought this isn't what Lyrenzia was about anyway... an alternate to revenge for bitter people.
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Bloodhearte
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:03 am
- Location: Yes please.
((Bah, I KNOW it's called roleplaying; before anybody accuses me of doing it poorly, I'll let you know it's also roleplaying to have flames that *might* not touch the ground. When did I say mine were special? This could be anybodys. If somebody were to, say, make a roleplaying attack rather than an actual, in game attack, would it be proper to kill the guy with a war axe when nothing in game actually happened to you?))
In any case, I despise Lyrenzia. I spit on the thought of a democratic society where the limited, stupid people rule. Our gods should be our only laws, or yourself; nobody else.
In any case, I despise Lyrenzia. I spit on the thought of a democratic society where the limited, stupid people rule. Our gods should be our only laws, or yourself; nobody else.
Ssso, what about the people that arent even in Lyrenzzia? Are you sssaying that they dont have to be in Lyrenzzia?
A witnesss can lie...Although their record isss againssst them; I dont think foossser did anything. I am not ssure about other peoples....
Lizardsss jussst dont do thingss like thiss! Dont talk badly about usss. Besides. Red Skeletons usually dont climb laddersss very well. I dont think foossser did thisss.
A witnesss can lie...Although their record isss againssst them; I dont think foossser did anything. I am not ssure about other peoples....
Lizardsss jussst dont do thingss like thiss! Dont talk badly about usss. Besides. Red Skeletons usually dont climb laddersss very well. I dont think foossser did thisss.
I do remember another slight incident involving lizards which was also quite bloody... Im sure Zerbus remembers it too.Lourlize wrote:Lizardsss jussst dont do thingss like thiss! Dont talk badly about usss.
Just because ye would not stoop to such low acts is no assurance that yer race wouldnt. Same goes for dwarves as we have all recently witnessed...
Dear Cain Freemont
Here is another long response, and I hope length and detail won't offend you as it strangely does to some people sometimes.
I don't remember any part of my "ranting" where the focus was to delcare Fooser as guilty or innocent of the charges in this trial. As I recall, the purpose of my "ranting" was to show that Lyrenzia is no less justified than any single individual in its treament of those it thinks are criminals, to which you didn't seem to deem worth your time to argue although you don't seem to believe me still. I'm curious if you bothered to read my comparison of Lyrenzia and any individual when it comes to law and justice. If you will spare the time, I will try to explain it again through looking how our little town of Troll's Bane started.
I'm sure you probably already have an understanding of words like democracy, tyranny, dictatorship, and anarchy. You obviously know these as forms of government. Will you spare me some of your time to take a closer meaning of these words with me?
How would you define the word anarchy? Probably as an absence of government? Perhaps you consider this anarchy as 'a neutral ground'?
Well if you really think about it, a population with no government is actually the same as if everyone was each a government of their own.
I contend that anarchy is a state where everyone is a government. Note that I didn't say "the government", because that would be a full democracy. I said "a government", meaning each person is a government of its own, namely a tyrant or dictator.
Troll's Bane started as an anarchy.
What this means is that everyone had their own set of values and they imposed it on others as necessary to survive. People of course realize that their chance for survival will be greatly increased if they co-operate with others with the same values, and so simple vague survival enhancing values are vaguely created and acknowledged amonst each other, such as "don't kill", "dont steal", "dont towncast".
Togther, they impose these values on everyone, including each other, and will enforce them on those who don't share that value. In other words, they've united together to form a stronger tyrant than all the other tyrants, in order to more effectively impose their shared values of "don't kill, steal, towncast".
Whenever someone sees that another has violated these values, they will try and get retribution if possible. How likely others are going to help him get that retribution is dependant on the other's evaluation of the invovled persons and the relevance of their testimony. The same applies to how likely others will help the accused. Given that, everyone's judgement was still open to error.
And so that was how the people of Troll's Bane lived up until now.
So what exactly is it that you see that is different about Lyrenzia from a single individual now?
Are the values any different than they were before?
How is Lyrenzia different from you? Just because it writes down all its values and calls it a fancy name "laws", and makes it's judgment after listening to all the testimony which is written for all to see and calls it a fancy name "trial"?
The difference is just that a large group of people have more strength to enforce these values than single individuals. So does having a bigger sword than other people make it any less justified than a single individual in doing the same things?
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You said I never once mentioned that Fooser is innocent. Do you recall me saying that Fooser was guilty of any charges in this trial either? Did I even make an opinion at all that Fooser was guilty of any charges here? Do you see any verdicts have been passed here? You are the one that is already saying who will be found guilty, not us.
You say Fooser is innocent. Some other people say he isn't. Everyone is putting in their opinions and testimony here for all to see.
So what is your problem with that? You say you're not being heard?
How is anybody not being heard here? What kind of response do you expect from Lyreniza in order to show that you are being "heard"?
I don't recall clapping my hands estatically to someone testifying against Fooser and saying "Wow, brilliant evidence! I'm so convinced now!"
So I don't know what is it that you are expecting and what you're complaining about in this trial.
Everything said here is being evaluated, and nobody ever said that the relevance and reliability of a testimony was any less important than the credibility of the person or the quantity of testimonies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You say people are found guilty without proof? So far, only Dunthor, Gloran, and Fooser have been found guilty of crimes, so these are the only examples. You contend that Dunthor and Gloran are obviously criminals, so you're complaint is for Fooser then?
Fooser was found guilty of burning Silverstar, and Mishrack, Roke, Crosis, Ezorock, Moathia are some of the people who saw him do it.
If you are saying this isn't enough proof, then please tell me, if Fooser or anybody was to be found guilty for this crime, what would be considered enough proof?
Basically Lyrenzia or any normal individual make daily judgements based on:
-the credibility or reputation of those who testify
-how relevant or reliable is the information (ie. did they actually SEE it)
-quantity of relevant testimonies
I'm curious how you are able to show proof that Dunthor or Gloran,or anyone else are criminals, if this criteria isn't the basis of your judgments as well.
Here is another long response, and I hope length and detail won't offend you as it strangely does to some people sometimes.
I don't remember any part of my "ranting" where the focus was to delcare Fooser as guilty or innocent of the charges in this trial. As I recall, the purpose of my "ranting" was to show that Lyrenzia is no less justified than any single individual in its treament of those it thinks are criminals, to which you didn't seem to deem worth your time to argue although you don't seem to believe me still. I'm curious if you bothered to read my comparison of Lyrenzia and any individual when it comes to law and justice. If you will spare the time, I will try to explain it again through looking how our little town of Troll's Bane started.
I'm sure you probably already have an understanding of words like democracy, tyranny, dictatorship, and anarchy. You obviously know these as forms of government. Will you spare me some of your time to take a closer meaning of these words with me?
How would you define the word anarchy? Probably as an absence of government? Perhaps you consider this anarchy as 'a neutral ground'?
Well if you really think about it, a population with no government is actually the same as if everyone was each a government of their own.
I contend that anarchy is a state where everyone is a government. Note that I didn't say "the government", because that would be a full democracy. I said "a government", meaning each person is a government of its own, namely a tyrant or dictator.
Troll's Bane started as an anarchy.
What this means is that everyone had their own set of values and they imposed it on others as necessary to survive. People of course realize that their chance for survival will be greatly increased if they co-operate with others with the same values, and so simple vague survival enhancing values are vaguely created and acknowledged amonst each other, such as "don't kill", "dont steal", "dont towncast".
Togther, they impose these values on everyone, including each other, and will enforce them on those who don't share that value. In other words, they've united together to form a stronger tyrant than all the other tyrants, in order to more effectively impose their shared values of "don't kill, steal, towncast".
Whenever someone sees that another has violated these values, they will try and get retribution if possible. How likely others are going to help him get that retribution is dependant on the other's evaluation of the invovled persons and the relevance of their testimony. The same applies to how likely others will help the accused. Given that, everyone's judgement was still open to error.
And so that was how the people of Troll's Bane lived up until now.
So what exactly is it that you see that is different about Lyrenzia from a single individual now?
Are the values any different than they were before?
How is Lyrenzia different from you? Just because it writes down all its values and calls it a fancy name "laws", and makes it's judgment after listening to all the testimony which is written for all to see and calls it a fancy name "trial"?
The difference is just that a large group of people have more strength to enforce these values than single individuals. So does having a bigger sword than other people make it any less justified than a single individual in doing the same things?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You said I never once mentioned that Fooser is innocent. Do you recall me saying that Fooser was guilty of any charges in this trial either? Did I even make an opinion at all that Fooser was guilty of any charges here? Do you see any verdicts have been passed here? You are the one that is already saying who will be found guilty, not us.
You say Fooser is innocent. Some other people say he isn't. Everyone is putting in their opinions and testimony here for all to see.
So what is your problem with that? You say you're not being heard?
How is anybody not being heard here? What kind of response do you expect from Lyreniza in order to show that you are being "heard"?
I don't recall clapping my hands estatically to someone testifying against Fooser and saying "Wow, brilliant evidence! I'm so convinced now!"
So I don't know what is it that you are expecting and what you're complaining about in this trial.
Everything said here is being evaluated, and nobody ever said that the relevance and reliability of a testimony was any less important than the credibility of the person or the quantity of testimonies.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You say people are found guilty without proof? So far, only Dunthor, Gloran, and Fooser have been found guilty of crimes, so these are the only examples. You contend that Dunthor and Gloran are obviously criminals, so you're complaint is for Fooser then?
Fooser was found guilty of burning Silverstar, and Mishrack, Roke, Crosis, Ezorock, Moathia are some of the people who saw him do it.
If you are saying this isn't enough proof, then please tell me, if Fooser or anybody was to be found guilty for this crime, what would be considered enough proof?
Basically Lyrenzia or any normal individual make daily judgements based on:
-the credibility or reputation of those who testify
-how relevant or reliable is the information (ie. did they actually SEE it)
-quantity of relevant testimonies
I'm curious how you are able to show proof that Dunthor or Gloran,or anyone else are criminals, if this criteria isn't the basis of your judgments as well.
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Alnerith Dencort
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 2:37 pm
- Location: watching you with binoculars
Irrelevant?
You're being put on trial and you think whether or not you are being judged with a fair critera is irrelevant?
You think it's irrelevant when some people walk into a trial and start complaining about the trials for things that never happened?
And you might want to consider speaking politely when on trial. I don't know why, but somehow I think that would benefit you.
((If you read the background story of Illarion, you might find there's no such thing as HELL, only the underworld.))
You're being put on trial and you think whether or not you are being judged with a fair critera is irrelevant?
You think it's irrelevant when some people walk into a trial and start complaining about the trials for things that never happened?
And you might want to consider speaking politely when on trial. I don't know why, but somehow I think that would benefit you.
((If you read the background story of Illarion, you might find there's no such thing as HELL, only the underworld.))
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Alnerith Dencort
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 2:37 pm
- Location: watching you with binoculars
Anyways, back to the trial details:
Here, I've yet to hear Drathe testify about the first scenario and the dwarf in the second scenario to come forward.
The field of Crosis Smallburrow was burned yesterday and a dwarf who was standing near told Damien and me, that it was Fooser7)I met Fooser in the library, he was just casting and told me"Keep your distance, the others will recognise soon what i am doing here".
Drathe approached and i prevented him to stop Fooser as i did with Mishrack and explained my plan to him.
Here, I've yet to hear Drathe testify about the first scenario and the dwarf in the second scenario to come forward.
Lourlize wasn't necessarily trying to generalize based on a race...
However, I know Fooser myself. He is merely a firemonger, and wouldn't do anything serious. He has done a few in his time, but he mustn't be blamed EVERYTIME fire is thrown. There are many more besides himself, and some of the people with a "credible reputation" may be biased against some people. That person, along with the majority, probably won't have qualms blaming somebody right off hand witness or no witness.
However, I know Fooser myself. He is merely a firemonger, and wouldn't do anything serious. He has done a few in his time, but he mustn't be blamed EVERYTIME fire is thrown. There are many more besides himself, and some of the people with a "credible reputation" may be biased against some people. That person, along with the majority, probably won't have qualms blaming somebody right off hand witness or no witness.
It is wrong for Lyrenzia to decide what it trusts. It leads to biased decisions. To be fair, Lyrenzia should trust nobody and analyze the testimonies, which is how I thought this system worked in the first place. Lyrenzia can't just take anybody's word for anything. If it does, then it is unfair.
Lyrenzia should not have the same rights as I do because Lyrenzia isn't just a citizen. Lyrenzia shouldn't function as I would function and do whatever it wants.
Lyrenzia should not have the same rights as I do because Lyrenzia isn't just a citizen. Lyrenzia shouldn't function as I would function and do whatever it wants.
Hmm... Now we have the border that separates those who are for Lyrenzia and those who are against it. Some of us think it's wrong to cast flames and do other things that would be considered obnoxious... while there are those of us who find powers like Lyrenzia just as offensive...
Peace is war and order is chaos. Lyrenzia is here to help keep peace, Lyrenzia is here to keep order. Lyrenzia's good intentions are bad to others. Lyrenzia's comfort is the disruption to others.
Not everyone can be happy. Most of the people who have become involved with this trial think that Fooser is guilty. What about the rest of us? We are guaranteed to be unsatisfied because we are the minority...
Peace is war and order is chaos. Lyrenzia is here to help keep peace, Lyrenzia is here to keep order. Lyrenzia's good intentions are bad to others. Lyrenzia's comfort is the disruption to others.
Not everyone can be happy. Most of the people who have become involved with this trial think that Fooser is guilty. What about the rest of us? We are guaranteed to be unsatisfied because we are the minority...
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Caranthir the great
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- Contact:
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Damien
- Posts: 7845
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
- Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
- Contact:
In every society, there are few people who like to bully others. They rob and steal, mock other people around and even kill those they don't like - who gives THEM the right to do so ?
One goal of Lyrenzia is, to help the people to defend against such individuals, in an unbloody way. To do so, Lyrenzia must put pressure on these few, agressive individuals. Of course they will not like it.
Of course, we must watch out that Lyrenzia does not become an instrument that puts pressure on the public, the people it was created to serve. And as long as the councellors of Lyrenzia remember that, we will have few problems going into that direction.
One goal of Lyrenzia is, to help the people to defend against such individuals, in an unbloody way. To do so, Lyrenzia must put pressure on these few, agressive individuals. Of course they will not like it.
Of course, we must watch out that Lyrenzia does not become an instrument that puts pressure on the public, the people it was created to serve. And as long as the councellors of Lyrenzia remember that, we will have few problems going into that direction.
I never thought it was right to bully people, etcetera.
Caranthir, I'm not exactly making unjustified assumptions. It is clear that most who have testified have testified against Fooser (which, by the way, sounds a little like bullying). Anybody can see that most of you are against him in this case, even if the wonderful Lyrenzia hasn't come to a decision yet.
Caranthir, I'm not exactly making unjustified assumptions. It is clear that most who have testified have testified against Fooser (which, by the way, sounds a little like bullying). Anybody can see that most of you are against him in this case, even if the wonderful Lyrenzia hasn't come to a decision yet.
FooserJohn,
Please do not lower your image anymore as it is already so sunk in the mud. And do not hide behind lies as it is quite true as has been said by many witnesses that you committed a crime as you have done so many times before. Receive your punishment humbly and perhaps what shred of honor remains to you will not disappear.
~Elaralith, Priestess of Elara~
Please do not lower your image anymore as it is already so sunk in the mud. And do not hide behind lies as it is quite true as has been said by many witnesses that you committed a crime as you have done so many times before. Receive your punishment humbly and perhaps what shred of honor remains to you will not disappear.
~Elaralith, Priestess of Elara~
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Adano Eles
- Posts: 2436
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2002 2:48 pm
- Location: Eiris sazun idisi, sazun hera duoder...
The people who testify against Fooser have a reason to do so. The task of Lyrenzia is not to count the number of pros and contras, but to judge the reasons people bring up. If those are not valid enough to prove what the accusing person said, then it will not be considered when deciding weather the accused is guilty or not.
This goes of course not only for arguments against the suspect, but also for arguments for him. Any valid testification for him will be considered as well as any against him. The fact that there have not been many valid testifications for Fooser is not a fact to be blamed on Lyrenzia, it is to be blamed on people who might have facts that prove his innocence but did not bring them up yet.
Adano Eles
Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven
This goes of course not only for arguments against the suspect, but also for arguments for him. Any valid testification for him will be considered as well as any against him. The fact that there have not been many valid testifications for Fooser is not a fact to be blamed on Lyrenzia, it is to be blamed on people who might have facts that prove his innocence but did not bring them up yet.
Adano Eles
Knight of the Grey Rose
Student of the Khana Len; Apprentice of the Great Temple of the Five and Eleven