what is powergaming...

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:46 am

Better we have a vague Rule to this Point than none Rule at all to this.
"Basic Fear" of Players to be caught as Powergamer, is better than just having them run arround and dont care one bit about it.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:32 am

Well yeah. Yet why have a rule that has to be broken in the game? I havn't seen a single person get in trouble for powergaming either. Is there never any proof or something?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:34 am

maybe we shouldnt spoil the rule.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:52 am

What do you mean by that Gro'Bul?

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:16 am

Why not let the rules decide what is powergaming?

9. Powergaming

Carrying out an action repeatedly, and for an extended time to raise your skill, is called Power gaming, and is forbidden. A worse case is when the player is doing something else to entertain him/her self meanwhile (e.g. watching tv). Note: Casting offensive spells on yourself will kill you instantly.

------------

There seem to be three things that make something powergaming in definition of the rules.

1. Doing something repeatedly
2. Doing something for a length of time
3. Doing it to raise your skill

So, what can we infer from this? Is it powergaming for someone to cast a spell on someone once? Not at all it seems. Very legitimate RP reasons for this.

Is it power gaming for someone to cast a spell on someone 5 times? Depends on why they're casting it. Are they doing it to raise skill, or to test the spell?

Is it power gaming for someone to cast a spell on someone else 20 times? I think for sure this would be power gaming. Maybe even 10 times.

I think the problem is in the term "for an extended time". What is an extended time? I think it depends on what it is your'e doing. Mining for a few hours to get gems, that doesn't seem to be powergaming as you are doing it to get gems. Casting a spell on anohter player for 2 hours would definately be though, only reason is to raise skill.

Smithing daggers for 2 hours may be considered power gaming. Are you doing it to make money, or to raise level or...

But, basically, I think there is an unwritten part of this rule also, that you are doing something for a non RP reason.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:21 pm

If smithing daggers for 2 hours was powergaming, how would anyone be able to be good at it? What if a new person wanted to play a blacksmith or a carpenter, how would they be able to get to that status without 'powergaming'

Or would it not be powergaming because they are a blacksmith? They are still smithing for skill.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:54 pm

Thereadore,

fireing Spells at your Friend is allways Powergaming.

Or do you shot your best friend just to try your new gun?

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:47 pm

Problem is with that rule....You are always trying to raise you skill when your doing it. What other reason could there be? I don't think this powergaming rule is very affective.

Fedaykin · Post by **Fedaykin** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 6:10 pm

Are you playing Illarion only to raise your RP?
Are you playing football only to become fitter?
Are you baking a cake only to become better at baking?

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 6:13 pm

Thereadore wrote: I think the problem is in the term "for an extended time". What is an extended time? I think it depends on what it is your'e doing. Mining for a few hours to get gems, that doesn't seem to be powergaming as you are doing it to get gems.

The point in "extended time" is compared to real life, how long can one work without a pause in his job, how long doesn't he need to eat or drink, how long doesn't he need any conversation to another human.
As in the calendar topic described (maybe it will be changed, but this is the current factor) three rl-hours are one Illarion day.
For this, working more than 45 minutes is more, than a normal man would work on a day. And there he also needs some rest.

To say it short,
if you work on one skill for an extended time without playing the role of a real person, who needs food and the company of other people around, it is obviously powergaming.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 6:52 pm

well said aragorn, but you should still rp while working

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:49 am

Actually saying that Fedaykin just made me think. Wouldn't you play football to have fun and get better at it? The better you are at it the more fun you have. The better you get at skills the more fun you have with the skills. Games are about having fun after all.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:56 am

you train to get better, you powergame to be the best. i think that pretty much describes it simply.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:05 am

I don't know how 3 rl hours can equal 1 day, because, think about it. You only get 1 ore in 1 second, but that would be 8 seconds in illarion. 1 herd would be 8 seconds to get, maybe 16. That is to long. I think that Illarion and Real Life should be on the same time unit. They already have the clock on the screen anyways.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:14 am

there is no set rule that says 3 hours is one illarion day.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:04 am

Gro'bul wrote:there is no set rule that says 3 hours is one illarion day.

Yes, there is one. Have a look at this topic:

Calendar of Illarion

Nanuk wrote:The calendar so far has no influence on the game. Later it will be displayed on screen and at the website. One day in-game equals three real hours.

The whole discussion after this post is about the lenght of these three hours and it was said by the mods, that they will change im maybe to 4, 6 or 8 hours. But as it is current, it was suggested 3 hours.

For further discussions on the calendar, go to the topic about it and read and write there please.

(@ Gro'bul: btw. my name is Aragon, not Aragorn)

Albernon · Post by **Albernon** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:37 am

Nanuk wrote:The calendar so far has no influence on the game. Later it will be displayed on screen and at the website. One day in-game equals three real hours.

As it says, the calendar so far has no influence on the game. So I don't think this is a set rule but only what was the planned to be. The calendar isn't implemented yet, so the one day in-game equals three hours seems to be only still a suggestion.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:07 am

A very poorly thought out suggestion at that. That would mean that there are players who don't sleep for 3 or more days in a row. Each RL day is 8 days in illarion. That makes one RL week 56 illarion days. One month is nearly an illarion year. Human characters that started with an age of 30 would live, realistically considering the time frame of illarion, for less than 2 real life years before they died of 'old age'. This would destroy character development! People didn't live very long back then. Any quests that start and end over a month or two later because a player is unable to play means they were gone for amazingly long periods of time within the game. This ridiculously short day would inhibit rp within and outside the game on the forums. I can't believe anyone in his or her right mind would support a three-hour day. At least make an illarion day 12 Rl hours. This way a player can play at any point during their day and rp within a reasonable amount of time for their character. I for one have rped a conversation for over three hours, that would be over a full day with this hack calandar! That's insane. No thank you. Whatever the time frame that is decided on, it should be devisable by two so you can play day and night within that time frame and not a day, a night, and a day again (such as would happen with the 2:3 ratop proposal) because you wouldn't know from day to day if it was day or night when you logged in.

As for powergaming, if you do anything with the sole intent to raise your skill level by doing so that is powergaming. If you blacksmith with the sole intent of making new items that is powergaming. If you roleplay a blacksmith attempting to learn how to make something new, that is not powergaming. If you have someone cast spells on you, not only is that bad roleplaying, that is also powergaming and should be punished. Unless you have a very very good excuse. Of course a magic duel when you are both casting on each other, or a magic fight when it is an actual fight would be acceptable but not one person standing around having others cast on them for a reason such as 'meditation' or something else. I honestly cannot find a reason why these people are not punished. What excuse can someone come up with for having another person harm them physically with something as powerful as magic? There are none, the only reason to let another person cast on you is to raise your own magic resistance. If you want to help them, you show them how to cast on something else such as the ground. You're only trying to raise your magic resistance skill by having them cast on you. If you're trying to deaden your bodies reaction to pain and magic, go right ahead, I consider that powergaming but as you can see, I have no say in the matter or there would be a lot of players who would have already been warned or banned by me for such careless acts and in my mind, bad examples set for new players by so called 'good' roleplayers, who are in fact taking advantage of the current system and their connections with older players/gm's to exploit the system to their own personal gain with no threat of punishment. This needs needs to change.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:33 pm

A lot of people had the same complaints, and the staff is currently reconsidering the day length.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:33 pm

It doesn't take 1 second to find a peice of coal in rl. It could take 5 minutes before you relize it's a ore.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:39 pm

really kasume 5 minutes? You think it takes 5 minutes to realize you have a peice of coal in your hand? If you have been doing yoru whole life I think it will take a lot less then 5 minutes.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:45 am

Who said everyone was good at looking at coal? When was the last time you looked at a peice of coal in a big pile of blackened stones from time?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:00 am

i agree with kasume, with all the other dirt and rocks to sort through it wo uld take time

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:21 am

Kasume, have you ever done that? I am pretty sure since when you first start it takes you about 30 seconds to actually get an ore that is evens out. Besides, how do you know when it says "you find nothing but dirt and rocks" that there wasn't an iron ore, coal, or raw gem in there but yoru character couldn't see it? Kasume, think about how silly it sounds, 5 minutes to get 1 peice of coal. it would take 10 minutes to make 1 dagger and you probably won't even make it. Kasume, this is a game, not real life. People do not want to spends years to become a master in this game, which is if it did take 5 minutes to find coal, it would take that long. I prefer months don't you? You might want to stop complaining about how hard it is to get good. I am a lumberjack and carpenter, and yet my roleplay is not effected by this at all.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:25 am

well grant, it should be, picking your job has to do with who you are. Like a dwarven preist. look how odd sounding that is. your job is part of rp.

Freo · Post by **Freo** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:14 pm

none of you have said how long you can "train" without it being concidered powergaming.... I think a fair amount of time is 30 minutes of doing one thing than adleast 30 or 40 more minutes before being able to do it again.... without it being called powergaming

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:28 pm

its a reasonable amount of time, it depends on what your doing.

Grishnak Bloodlust · Post by **Grishnak Bloodlust** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:47 pm

If you are standing around getting hit by a monster for ages healing yourself that is powergaming. If you were fighting the monster and healing yourself it would be more appropriate.
Also if you were hitting someone for a long time for a skill, that's powergaming, unless they were fighting you back which makes it sparing.
I dont see mining for prolonged periods as powergaming. As long as you are using what you dig up whether it be selling, smithing or grinding.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:59 pm

Oh yay! I finally get to say this to someone!!

Grant this game isn't just about mastering it.

Oh man that felt great!

Also what about selling? Some people just mine to sell the gems and ores. Like I was going to do but, changed my mind.

Another thing, looking at a rock has nothing to do with making a dagger. You would relize that you need a hammer to smith stuff wayyy before you figure out if that coal is coal. You are comparing two different things.

Talk to Randelf too. It took him a year just to become a master blacksmith. And that was 6 hours every other day. From what he told me at least.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:28 am

he also made about half of his skill before the 10x system.