Continued discussion ... no whiners or crybabies.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:22 am

At least *I* can use a translator.

Kaila Galathil Travinus · Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:32 am

This is boiling down (literally) to a communication problem on both sides. There was no give and take due to the fact that there were two different languages spoken.. some questions come to mind.

1. Would the outcome have been the same if all understood each other?

2. In a RPing game where PO's strictly follow their chars background, makeup, attitude..........how much veering from this background should a PO do due to the language barrier?

3. Was this communication problem taken into account in any decision process?

4. If language was a problem.. how can this be corrected?

Taeryon Silverlight · Post by **Taeryon Silverlight** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:36 am

Retlak wrote:At least *I* can use a translator.

yeah, use a translator during a RP with 6 people. Have fun

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:37 am

Just a couple of thoughts here...

Did anyone else think Faladron's re-translation was awfully similar to the original translation?

Also, Silverbrand has permanent quest items? I thought that made it a quest location like the temple. Noradur seemed to say in his thread that the blackstones made the temple a quest. It seems that invading Silverbrand should be seen the same way given this bit of information. Or am I missing something here?

And finally... *points to the name of the thread* ...Cut it out guys.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:38 am

Taeryon Silverlight wrote:
Lrmy wrote:
Nitram wrote:Who of you will ignore the emotes I could send, written completly in german.

Kevin? Retlak?
They can't speak German, There is a difference. -,-
And Thorwald can't speak english you god damnit noob. That's what nitters argument was all about. Seriously, can't you guys just quit shoving the same arguments around and around again and just stfu? Sry if this sounds to harsh, but it's getting annoying.

The same arguments? All I see here are all very valuable arguments, that prooves that Dominic and William did "nothing" bad, it's not William and Dominic's fault if they cannot speak German and its not the dwarves's that they cannot speak english, but the banned persons were still banned for no valuable reasons. There were no rulebreak, it seems they did not even attack a single dwarf in there, they did "nothing" bad, "everyone" knows that.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:42 am

I seriously doubt the language barrier was taken into account when the punishment was dished out.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:46 am

Welcome to the wonderful world of:

Favoritism!!!

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:11 am

So...have the temple and silverbrand attack each other! The golems die, silverbrand becomes powerless, and most of the temple is slaughtered, everybody loses, but then that makes everyone win at the same time, yes?

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:29 am

You're in the wrong forum buddy.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 08e93448bb

There you go

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:45 am

Vern Kron wrote:So...have the temple and silverbrand attack each other! The golems die, silverbrand becomes powerless, and most of the temple is slaughtered, everybody loses, but then that makes everyone win at the same time, yes?

wrong on that one.....

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:59 am

Sarcasm my friend, is an art hardly picked up on the internet.
Basically...all this has boiled down to is a vent for every single problem in the game, and will degrade further into a massive flame war that will spark more and more new topics of flames. Maybe silverbrand does get special treatment, but since they are basically autonomous, and buy from others and as far as I know, don't really export, it works its way to everyone else at some point. Troll's bane may be the center of activity for many english players, but could Silverbrand be the center for the german activity?

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:18 am

Thorwald (as translated by Taeryon Silverlight) wrote:

The golems, that protect the king are the outcome of a quest and I never ever used them, nor will I ever do in future. Because not even the appearance of a golem stopped them from attacking Ghorm. No, they even attacked the golem.

Mr. Cromwell wrote:

(So, the dwarves can mess with others, but you can't attack them because they have the divine golems on their side? Please..)Thirdly, fighters and mages kick around golems almost every other day in Illarion. Just like with magical walls, they're not nearly as frightening for the characters who face them every day than for say, us. Fourthly, quest reward or not, but I'm personally not that comfortable with the idea of one settlement receiving permanent 'guards' like that.
And if the golems are 'quest items', then I would like to know when this quest ends. Surely these items must be taken away like the blackstones at some point? There's no plan to take away these quest items? Oh dear. I swear, the surprise has shocked me immensely.

Regarding the Temple Blackstones...

Cassandra Fjurin wrote:

That is totaly wrong in my eyes. The Temple was initialized as a quest. The advantages for the temple was because it was a quest. I never ever would give a player guild an item like the blackstones without doing anything for it, i never ever would give a player guild special powers without acting in a quest.

With this post i can say. Bye for all the advantages to the temple wich they got because it WAS A QUEST.

Thorvald wrote:

I agree. I would like the blackstone to be removed. On the same hand I wish to have another certain item removed that is in the hands of another few chars who were once close to the char Ephraim and that teleported them to a certain spot. Because fairness should be something that counts for everyone. If the temple can't have teleporting blackstones, then other players should not be able to obtain such a similar item either.

Noradur wrote:

But if you want to:
I will hunt you moaning crookchars down with my gm chars, listen to every word you say, and mark every little mistake you do, and even turn it so i can ban you as quick as possible, just to show you illarion with the kind of crooked gms you think we are!

And a bunch of even more hostile stuff too. http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 21&start=0

I'm a little bit confused. We do all want to be fair, right? Or am I missing something again?

Jaren · Post by **Jaren** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:21 am

The GM staff needs to come out and answer a simple question:

Will this game be fair to everyone?

Silverbrand being the pet project of several GMs seems to be a hot issue with a lot of history that is going to continue to build and build. The simpliest way to defuse the powder keg is to answer that question and then take the appropriate steps the answer gives you.

Looking at the log, it seems Thorwald's accusations that PO William and Dominic were whispering ooc the whole time as being unfounded and untrue. (The question of how he would have known they were whispering ooc unless the characters were standing very close to each comes to mind). As well looking from the log it looks like what was said earlier that William and Dominic went to Silverbrand BEFORE Nalcaryos and some dwarves from Silverbrand pked people (including my character without any #me or warning before hand) is untrue. And since that is the case and it is prefectly understandable and logical that two strong folks would go to the place where the problem manifested itself. Inturn giving both William and Dominic GOOD roleplay reason to go to Silverbrand and cause trouble.

And of course we are back to the question at the start of the post:

Will this game be fair to everyone?

Because unless the GMs who decide punishments did not care to look at the logs or get information before making a decision, this game is clearly not fair to everyone.

That is not an opinion, that is just a fact at this point. The GMs need to come out and say wether this will change or remain.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:49 am

I will first admit that many of my posts have been dumb and well...pointless. What else should anyone post in a thread arguing their side, when their side of the argument does not matter or is not taken into account.

Obviously, I agree with Jaren. If you say Silverbrand was the final straw for William and Dominic. I disagree, it was an excuse. Everyone has gotten mad about something regarding this ordeal. Still, it is mostly ignored (By ones who can do something).

Speaking back on the temple:

The Blackstones were a quest item temple members received. Who said we didn't do anything for them? Perhaps having our characters clouded by the various anti-evil characters just because we were in the temple wasn't enough? Fine. Maybe the various mini-quests? Maybe the quest/rituals? Maybe the hours of in game time spent on this temple/quest? We lost the other temple because we didn't pay for it. We paid for the new one. We did not craft and gain materials like Silverbrand did in the past, we raised different skills(fighting and the like...suited more to the God our characters would pray to than the dwarf's crafting god). We spent the time and effort, the out of game/in game harassment and we don't deserve them? Silverbrand may not(?) have gotten anything they did not work for. The Temple has far less than they have worked for.

Arien Edhel · Post by **Arien Edhel** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:19 am

Enough spam, flame, different meanings that comes to no agreement - whatever.
I close the thread this evening.

Lance Thunnigan · Post by **Lance Thunnigan** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:25 am

Oh noe0zorZ.
Arien is closing the thread because we found out the secret!
O=

z0mg, fav0ritiz-mz!?
no wAI!?

Arien Edhel · Post by **Arien Edhel** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:29 am

Of course that's the reason.

'Cause christmas is over, my heart is closed again and I hate everybody except me.

Lance Thunnigan · Post by **Lance Thunnigan** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:31 am

I was just joking Arien.
Ai l0v yooh.

Arien Edhel · Post by **Arien Edhel** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:35 am

I wasn't.

Lance Thunnigan · Post by **Lance Thunnigan** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:35 am

*stirbt*

Post by **Nitram** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:01 am

Fianna Heneghan wrote:Also, Silverbrand has permanent quest items?

I sadly fail to follow you. What Items are you talking about? Golems are
for sure characters and no Items. They poped up once around a year ago
and never again after this.

Jaren wrote:Will this game be fair to everyone?

No. This game won't be fair to everyone.

Simple reason for that: Its not possible.

The americans for example who live in a timezone far away from the
european timezone hardly ever get a quest. So no quest rewards and no
fun provided by some GMs. They can entertain theirselfs but at this
timezones with have the most less players as well. And we put in that
timezone due the low serverload the backup. So they are allowed to suffer
additional to their single player roleplay a massive lag of the server.
Not pretty fair compared to you, isn't it?

Furthermore Illarion can't be played in the way some of you appear to
want. The single man who beats up everyone else, is hated by everyone
but still alive. That just does not work. Face it.
Someone ( no idea who ) wrote into the Illapedia "have fun by providing
fun" and thats exactly the way it should go. If you think you don't have to
do this, you will suffer the same as William and Dominic sooner or later.
If you login to entertain yourself by causing havoc to anyone else, then
better stay out of the game.

And the staff consists of humans. You should consider that as well i think.
So if one causes constant complainments by different players and makes
other players leaving the game, we will try to teach the player wo play in a
way so the ones we plays with, have fun too. If he is not willing to learn
that we will be banned. Thats it.

Nitram

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:19 am

Suggestion! More American/Canadian questers. Don't go and ask me who, as none of us seem to actually know how you become a gm in the first place.

Post by **Nitram** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:22 am

The problem with "more american questers" is we ( the staff ) have no idea who. We hardly have anything to do with the players in that timezone. So we don't know who would be actually able to be a GM.

And when you ask how to become a gm, we usually ask you if you want to become one. Thats the problem with the american ones. When we sleep we do not ask.

Nitram

Thorvald · Post by **Thorvald** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:00 am

And if I'm not mistaken the current ratio is:

2 american RP GM/Quester + 1 german RP GM.

Thorwald · Post by **Thorwald** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:04 am

Ich muß mich berichtigen , ich hab doch einmal von einem Gm einen Gegenstand bekommen ohne dafür etwas bezahlt haben zu müßen .
Bei dem Gegenstand handelte es sich um eine Golde Krone mit dem Titel
" Die Krone der Könige von Silberbrand " die hat mir Nitram damals bei meiner Krönung gemacht .
Und wenn man einem Golem als Ständigen Questgegenstand bezeichnet , hm , also nur mal so nebenbei , der Golem wird soviel ich weiß von einem Gm gespielt .
Wird Silberbrand also angegriffen und werd ich als König bedroht , muß ich , da ich ja ständig einen Gm unsichtbar in der Hosentasche mit mir rumtrage , nur sagem Golem auf sie .
Gut dann muß ich demnächst ein Quest machen lassen bei dem Thorgrimm seinen Arm wieder bekommt und der Golem dafür verschwindet und schon sind alle wieder glücklich ???
Kein Problem mach ich .

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:05 am

About the language barrier/conflict IG:

If you go to a foreign/alien people, where you don't understand the language AND the gestures (this is how the inability to emote in English/German can be seen), it is rather difficult to communicate with them - without a translator (in person).

So if you go there, unprepared, don't be surprised if they react adversely.

This should be taken into account by both sides. The only language both sides understand, is the engine based one: fighting, magic etc. - but also presents layed on the ground.

So if you don't want it to end in a ctrl/alt-click massacre, don't "invade" an alien people's land without any preparations.

To be honest, if this special case happened in reality, the dwarves would have killed both humans probably immediately after William casted the first spell - a quite hostile action in such a tense situation.

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:13 am

Hello!

Well, I wanted to stay out of this "discussion" up until now, but enough is enough. I'll tell you what I saw back in the mine. I saw two 12-year-old boys who were bored as hell. Yes, there weren't many players on that morning but there where some dwarven players. AlexRose wants to tell us that he and PO Dominic Fisher wanted to visit a shrine. I say that this is just an excuse. They wanted to have some fun on someone expense and so they decided to pay the dwarves a visit. This had nothing to do with roleplaying but with some players wanting to have some fun no matter what. Read the log provided by AlexRose and you will see, that the dwarves wanted to avoid trouble but William Elderberry and Dominic Fisher didn't want to stop but pushed on to have some fun.
I have said it once and I repeat it now, it wasn't the happenings in the mine that got AlexRose and PO Dominic Fisher in this situation, but their attitude towards other players as a whole.

With kind regards

Ambrosine · Post by **Ambrosine** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:20 am

The impression that I usually got when playing was that Will (don't think I met Dom) was a bit of an immature character/had a pronounced childish side... If that is the case (which is something only known in the mind of his player) then what was wrong with his character acting a bit immaturely?

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:33 am

Hello!

Yeah, being Lord of Caelum and being totally immature fits quite well.

Sorry, I have enough of people who use "character concepts" as an excuse to do anything they like. This has nothing to do with roleplaying. And if you read AlexRose comments here on the board, which is OOC in most cases and not related to his char, you will see that it is not his char.

With kind regards

Ambrosine · Post by **Ambrosine** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:36 am

I don't think "totally immature" fits Will... Just sporadically immature... ^_~

What has nothing to do with roleplaying?