Continued discussion ... no whiners or crybabies.

[Llama]

I was talking to PO Faladron about this, and he helped me come up with a conclusion:

What happened: Will and Dom got punished by the Gms. Usually its no big deal, happens all the tyme, so why did all hell break loose now?

Contributing factors: I) Alleged link between Arien and Silverbrand (as being favourism)
II) Alleged link of 'hatred' against William and Dom

The catalyst: IA) Arien posting on the silverbrand board 'boasting' about what s/he did
IB) Alleged Past 'bonuses' given to silverbrand possibly from that GM
IC) No information given, so assumed that punishment was due to silverbrand assault

IIA) Publically posting and stickying in the general board
IIB) Not wishing to give any information
----

In conclusion, the problem isn't what happened, but that it was handled rather badly.

In the ideal world, it would have been "WE and DF punished for breaking the rules X1, X2...Xn" told in some private GM boards, and the punishment pmed to anyone 'concerned' (leaders of towns for example).

Basically, all hell broke loose because it was poorly handled.

Added: It can't be expected that after it being placed as a sticky in the general board, people do not ASK what happened. If details aren't wanted to be given out, just... don't make it so public.

Merry Christmas

[Fianna Heneghan]

Did you guys sneak up and start talking about this again while I wasn't watching?

Just remember to keep it clean. I know you all can.

[Aegohl]

I'd have to disagree, Hadrian. It isn't just that it was handled badly (and it was).

It's cheap to say that "they didn't break a rule here in this case, but they've broken rules in the past so it's okay" and punishing in this unique way (which I feel is a bit cruel and unusual) is opening the door for some nasty things.

The rp rules were weakened in favor of more mass appeal long ago, so now we're punishing people for bad rp again? Which way is it?

I find it's kind of a peculiar habit at Illarion that serious rule breaks don't warrant any punishment or a slap on the wrist, but being a nuisance is the cause of extreme action.

Thalados steals GM tools and uses them as a factory for free items, but he's friendly, so let's bring that winner right back! (to go beyond that and steal another GM character before he gets the perm ban)

Konstantin seems to have changed with time and is looking to play fair (at least from what I can see on the boards), but he'll even likely tell you that he's broken more rules than most, and he's lived to tell the tale.

Sam, on the other hand, got banned for much less, because, well, the staff decided he's obnoxious. And sometimes he could be.

These players were so obnoxious that they weren't banned for multiple rule violations but they deserved a special punishment just for them for being that obnoxious. If we need a reason, we'll point back to those rule violations that we slapped them on the wrist for.

Here's an idea: punish people for breaking the rules and don't when they're not.

[Gro'bul]

Here's an idea: punish people for breaking the rules and don't when they're not.

Fo shizzle, I honestly don't see whats so hard about this. Putting up with stuff like this: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=25851 saddens me. If someone spoke/typed like this in the DoD server I play on, they would be banned instantly and thats the end. If this game has no structures, people are going to do whatever they want. Which is the reason I think this creative option versus !b function isn't too bad.

[Arameh]

Whats wrong with that topic..? O_O

Edit :

And...well being strict is fine, it's not really what we are talking about here, its more "Being strict to people we don't like" as Aegohl said. It's the whole idea of fairness, even if you don't like someone you have to treat that person the same way you treat anyone else anyway, anything else is an act of immaturity, this concept is omnipresent and should be used everywhere (Even in an online game). With the recent events, the staff appears immature to most of the playerbase (even if they're not all posting..look at the amount of people reading those threads), and that does scare the players quite a bit and even restricts their RP, we don't want that right? If I had been banned I honestly wouln't care if the rules I broken were posted, this is not a reason to keep them 'secret' and doing so just makes it seem like there were none.

[abcfantasy]

Language?

[Llama]

Here's an idea: punish people for breaking the rules and don't when they're not.

Fo shizzle, I honestly don't see whats so hard about this. Putting up with stuff like this: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=25851 saddens me.

I think the problem per se is not the bad language, but what it is directed at.

Dei isn't aiming the bad language at anyone, except 'hackers' so he isn't making the community angry, so its fine... (IMHO at least)

[Faladron]

So did everyone calm down now from all the christmas stress and the good moon on Dec 23th (over middle europe atleast)?

I am pretty sure all of that helped to heaten up this discussion and now after everyone was all "Awww" because it was christmas things will start to get better now.

Anyone wants a hug?

[Llama]

*hugs*

[Gro'bul]

Its completely disrespectful language to anyone reading and the game in my opinion. Unless this forum is just a repository for angry outbursts converted to text (last time I checked its for a game), this sort of language is completely unnecessary and promotes disrespect and lack of self control in other areas of the community because of its tolerance. I think someone wanting some help could reflect a tad bit better appearance of civility on the game they supposedly enjoy playing than that.

[Fianna Heneghan]

Grobul... The language was strong in that post, probably unnecessarily so, but when people are frustrated they are not at their best when it comes to expressing themselves. I think we've probably all been there. It wasn't attacking anyone. I hope we are not so sensitive that we can't tolerate a little bit of frustrated venting from time to time.

*group hugs Faladron and Hadrian*

[Korm Kormsen]

that we can't tolerate a little bit of frustrated venting from time to time.

i think, for that there exist specialized forums and professionals. this forum would be better, if it just served the game.

--------

...the staff appears immature to most of the playerbase (even if they're not all posting..look at the amount of people reading those threads)

1st: you have no base, to state that high numbers of readers of those thread mean, that they all share your point of view.
2nd: you have no legitimation to write about what most of the "playerbase" thinks.
you are, as far as i know, part of the "discontent-explayers-group", and without enough actual contacts to "the playerbase".
3rd: the actual players and the actual staff would get along much better, if there were not discontent explayers, blowing up the flames, whenever an oportunity arises.

[Faladron]

2nd: you have no legitimation to write about what most of the "playerbase" thinks.
you are, as far as i know, part of the "discontent-explayers-group", and without enough actual contacts to "the playerbase".
3rd: the actual players and the actual staff would get along much better, if there were not discontent explayers, blowing up the flames, whenever an oportunity arises.

Or you'd make the jump back to "player" for a while (like I did), look what has actually changed in-game and how the atmosphere is and then form an opinion about staff decisions.

Or if people would for once realize how hard it is to
(and I will stress this everytime someone asks for it)

Put work into a game in your free time and keep up the motivation although you're being shot down by people who complain for the sake of complaining (even if things change the way you'd like them to change, and ponder real hard about this question now, would you then really come back to being a regular player again?

If your answer is yes then your next question has to be:
How many players might not like the way things have been changed then in order for you to come back and might now leave themselves?

Which would lead to the third question:

Now if I were in the staff and had to decide about crowd A getting their say and crowd B leaving if crowd A gets their say and crowd B doesnt get theirs (mind you, if crowd B gets their say crowd A will leave too), how should one decide which crowd to follow (perhaps it'd be better to neither follow A or B then?)?
Follow the crowd which posts the most?
Is the loud majority always right?
There's a thing called "Ochlokratie" meaning democracy gone downhill by deciding upon the wrong things by the majority for whatever reasons.

I'm all for Oligarchie in that case instead of over-stressed democracy if it leads to results and progress.
(As its being exercised here by the staff. People maybe don't like it but just because for once you cant agree upon a decision they made does that put everything else they accomplished up to now in a bad light?
Do people realy have to forget the good that has been done to them over time and especially if one thing "bad" happens then?)

(I believe martin once posted a link here somewhere to another RPG project which had everything discussed and planned out neatly, agreed and voted upon buuut... after all that work nobody felt up for actually coding things so the game was never realized at all)

(Mind you I am talking about a game, not a country. Democracy is fine for countries but not if you wish to get "serious work" done (i. e. programming illarion)

[Arameh]

...the staff appears immature to most of the playerbase (even if they're not all posting..look at the amount of people reading those threads)

1st: you have no base, to state that high numbers of readers of those thread mean, that they all share your point of view.
2nd: you have no legitimation to write about what most of the "playerbase" thinks.
you are, as far as i know, part of the "discontent-explayers-group", and without enough actual contacts to "the playerbase".
3rd: the actual players and the actual staff would get along much better, if there were not discontent explayers, blowing up the flames, whenever an oportunity arises.

1st: There's a nice function on the forum to see how many "views" there were on a topic, you can check for yourself and see the amount (last I checked it was 2200). That means, there are people that read this topic and people that post in it, many that reads it. You know, I did not even state my point of view, so how can you say I stated that people shared mine? You read minds?

2nd: It is just a wild bet, on how around 30-40 people posted their discontent about the decision while, 1 or 2 said they were for, maybe not everyone posted it but I find it to be a rather large sample to have an idea about the opinion of the players, no? As well, you cannot claim that I am a "discontent explayer" or that I have no contact with the players, this is just wrong.

3rd: There would be no discontent if the players felt like the staff was being fair, all that mess wouln't have happened if the whole thing was better explained.

PS : I'm neutral on the matter of if it was fair or not, I'm just saying it should have been handled differently.

[Nitram]

1st: There's a nice function on the forum to see how many "views" there were on a topic, you can check for yourself and see the amount (last I checked it was 2200).

I fear that function is not a pretty good reference. It counts really EVERY view of that topic. So if one reads all 4 pages of that topic, you get 4 views. If opens the "general board" he "reads" that post too, if he uses a browser like Firefox 2 or Opera that supports prefetching. Those browsers load the page, even if the user does not read it, to support a faster browsing. Pretty good function but he destroys those view counters, since the page is loaded but not viewed all times.

But you are right with:

That means, there are people that read this topic and people that post in it, many that reads it. You know, I did not even state my point of view, so how can you say I stated that people shared mine? You read minds?

You say that the staff appears immature to the playerbase. But you can't know that. The staff maybe appears immature to the few, partly completly inactive and not any longer involved into Illarion, ones who are posting here. You should note that, depending on what you define as "active" we have around 310 active players. That number is of cause effected by the players who just create a character, login once and leave again. But if you count that out, still nearly 200 remain.
If anyone, those active players have a voice here. For proposals. Ones who are inactive for years. Like Aegohl, who have no real reference to the situation in the game ( and thats what that board is actually about ) just are no reference. They are, at least by me, completly ignored, since their posts refer to a time, when they played and thats ages ago.

2nd: It is just a wild bet, on how around 30-40 people posted their discontent about the decision while,

pretty good guess. 36 to be exactly posted here all in all.
Say 5 of them are those who are against everything.
5 more are inactive and not relevant for discussion about stuff related to that game.
2 or 3 said they think thats good.
5 or something like that said the general desicion is good just the way its enforced is discussable.

rather large sample to have an idea about the opinion of the players, no?

Sadly not, Arameh. Its always in the way, that those who have no problem with something do not post at all. And those who have a problem post like mad. Thats the "you always here those who cry loudest"-effect.

As well, you cannot claim that I am a "discontent explayer" or that I have no contact with the players, this is just wrong.

Maybe with the players, not with the game. But you are listed as active player, who i guess you logged in the last days. I would not mark you as inactive.

3rd: There would be no discontent if the players felt like the staff was being fair,

Thats sadly absolutly impossible. Any desicion leads to the point that some think its good, some think its fair and some think its not pretty fair. You can't do it in a way that everyone is fine. Else the world would be a better one I guess. The playerbase is fastidioused by the fact that the staff didn't act stricter with players who clearly hurt the game. That leaded us who the place we are now. And this has to change.

all that mess wouln't have happened if the whole thing was better explained.

It should be clear by usage of the thingy called brain that someone who get banned on one or the other way, hurt the game or broke the rules. And more shouldn't be needed to know.

PS : I'm neutral on the matter of if it was fair or not, I'm just saying it should have been handled differently.

Thats the cool point. For those who are directly effected by that happenings it was the best way to enforce the needed. Guess both accepted and understand that.
Only those who are not effected slightly think its crap. Strange isn't it?

Nitram

[Korm Kormsen]

i just hope, that I myself will be mature enough, not to lurk these forums, once i don't play anymore.

[Mr. Cromwell]

Here's an idea: punish people for breaking the rules and don't when they're not.

Fo shizzle, I honestly don't see whats so hard about this. Putting up with stuff like this: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=25851 saddens me. If someone spoke/typed like this in the DoD server I play on, they would be banned instantly and thats the end. If this game has no structures, people are going to do whatever they want. Which is the reason I think this creative option versus !b function isn't too bad.

That particular post is not such problem as the swearing is frustration-related, however I agree with the PoV that the tone and casuality of swearing has reached alarming levels on OT and that this must change.


Worry not, I'm on it.

[nmaguire]

Only those who are not effected slightly think its crap. Strange isn't it?

You could argue that anyone who RPed with us and ENJOYED RPing with us regularly, and liked doing so BECAUSE of the character is affected. Also, Will had/has students, for example. They are affected directly because their teacher has disappeared

[Faladron]

Only those who are not effected slightly think its crap. Strange isn't it?

You could argue that anyone who RPed with us and ENJOYED RPing with us regularly, and liked doing so BECAUSE of the character is affected. Also, Will had/has students, for example. They are affected directly because their teacher has disappeared

Well you could, but please don't for it leads nowhere.

On the other hand...

Fine, I'll take on magic too, get me some students then bend on all the rules there are because I'm important and irreplaceable for two or three other guys.

Thumbs up for that.

[AlexRose]

Only those who are not effected slightly think its crap. Strange isn't it?

You could argue that anyone who RPed with us and ENJOYED RPing with us regularly, and liked doing so BECAUSE of the character is affected. Also, Will had/has students, for example. They are affected directly because their teacher has disappeared

+All Caelum members and allies.

I love the phrase "Harmful to the game", which in actuality means "pissed off a some people".

[Faladron]

One word: Staff Blackmail

[AlexRose]

One word: Staff Blackmail

Psst.. that's two words.

[Faladron]

Psst, it's one word in my mother tongue so forgive me for my utter failure at the english language.

[AlexRose]

Psst, when there's a space, it means it's a new word. I think that might actually be the most basic rule of the English language, and you evidently speak it fine usually.

[Llama]

Only those who are not effected slightly think its crap. Strange isn't it?

You could argue that anyone who RPed with us and ENJOYED RPing with us regularly, and liked doing so BECAUSE of the character is affected. Also, Will had/has students, for example. They are affected directly because their teacher has disappeared

(who are coincidently just ONE lesson away from getting enough runes to become mages (and then teachers))

[Faladron]

Then perhaps someone should ask the staff nicely if they could look into guaranteing that this one lesson will not be crashed by any interference (people coming to kill William Elderberry) so they can be happy mages now and not have to start all over again with a new teacher so close away from their goal instead of complaining and trying to bring this into this discussion as an argument.

I might aswell try it myself:

Would any gm volunteer to oversee that this last teaching lesson can be held without disturbance so this "story arc" caused by the affected character William Elderberry can end well rounded and not appruptly, please?

[nmaguire]

Then of course there is the entire town that has been under construction for a few years.

[AlexRose]

I was gonna teach that last lesson anyway, but my character's bugged so I get kicked on login, and I said that on the technical board and I told Nitram and noone seems to care.

[Aegohl]

I like Nitram's way of thinking. In fact, I'll adopt it in my dealings in real life.

People who have left, are quitters and people who are discontent are whiners, so that just leaves people who agree with me! I must be way more excellent than I thought I was previously! =D

By the way, Arien, you stole my ten dollars. I want it back.

[Faladron]

I like Nitram's way of thinking. In fact, I'll adopt it in my dealings in real life.

People who have left, are quitters and people who are discontent are whiners, so that just leaves people who agree with me! I must be way more excellent than I thought I was previously! =D

By the way, Arien, you stole my ten dollars. I want it back.

(even if things change the way you'd like them to change, and ponder real hard about this question now, would you then really come back to being a regular player again?

If your answer is yes then your next question has to be:
How many players might not like the way things have been changed then in order for you to come back and might now leave themselves?

Which would lead to the third question:

Now if I were in the staff and had to decide about crowd A getting their say and crowd B leaving if crowd A gets their say and crowd B doesnt get theirs (mind you, if crowd B gets their say crowd A will leave too), how should one decide which crowd to follow (perhaps it'd be better to neither follow A or B then?)?
Follow the crowd which posts the most?

You are either in crowd A or B, I haven't decided that yet.