killing chars AND players

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:12 pm

Indeed, but can you imagine the uproar as soon as a 'hero' gets forced Permadeath. The heros want it for villains, but they wouldnt accept the reverse role, which is why i think it a stupid and underthought idea ;]

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:08 pm

Aristeaus,

if a criminal, who ecapes, is RPing badly, and a sheriff, who catches criminals is playing unfair, like you stated above, we should have criminals, who want to be caught by sheriffs, that dont want to catch....

Why should a criminal character be forced into permadeath when a judical character should not?

well, what is a role play game? or better, what is this role play game?
for me a simulation of a couple of societies.

the way, the outlaws are evolving at the moment, they tend to destroy these played societies (simply by either driving away peacefull chars, or obligating players to play their former peacefull chars as fighters)
what is Illa without peacefull chars? - just hack'n slay!

you, and some others here are wrong, if you compare the risk of an outlaw to the risk of a guard or similar.
the risk of an outlaw has to be compared to the damage he does to society.
and in the case of this game, it has to be compared, to the indirect damage, they do to the game as such. (by driving away people, who want to play peacefull chars)

edit:
and this:

which is why i think it a stupid and underthought idea

seems to me like an underthought statement.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:14 pm

Meow, read it and think before you get upset ol boy.

Criminals at times do let themselves get captured, and sheriffs at times all them to get away. But you have never experienced this and so debating it with you would be a waste of both of ours time.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:15 pm

Korm, don't let Aristeaus try and noob you!!

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:19 pm

If there was perm death I would stop playing.

What the smile is the point?

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:31 pm

Korm, don't let Aristeaus try and noob you!!

why not?
he only proves, not to have better arguments.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:04 pm

To late youve already been noobed

But as to the discussion, yes its a roleplay game, and that is what i stated. And the fault is not in the GAME, its in the players. If it were played as an rpg it would be fine, but the players dont play it as an rpg.

Which i already said in my first post

Alytys Lamar · Post by **Alytys Lamar** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:53 pm

Ascius wrote:Furthermore, we sometimes had some of the greatest idiots ever in ruling positions, which makes it difficult to give the power over life and death to them.

We'll have to live with these 'outlaws'. That's the difference between game and real life.

Well.. I agree with Ascius ... and with Aristeaus
Execution, Permadeath or whatsoever must be an decision from the player. A hero can die and a Thief or Murder as well, that's fair play.

When a Player plays against the rules, like forced RP, there are GMS to handle this.

The Rest is fantasy... and Game...NOT RL-Life

So Aristeaus is right when he wrote its a player thing and not in the game..
We all should using our intelligence and fantasy... it would be really boring when all living in peace and huggles... i think i would quit the game !

And Sorry Korm, but the Nordmarkers seems me not really squeamishly with violence... they are Barbarians.

.. this is still a GAME, not more and not less.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:57 pm

And the fault is not in the GAME, its in the players.

agreed.

If it were played as an rpg it would be fine, but the players dont play it as an rpg.

agreed.

and??
where is your idea for a solution?

my idea for a solution is, to make the "hack'n slay- way of life" in the game less atractive.
by wich means, you allready have read above.

to be called n00b by you, doesn't hurt. i know, from whom it comes...

---------------

Aleytys,

referring to my first posting here, what would be your suggestion?
or don't you recognize the problem?

Alytys Lamar · Post by **Alytys Lamar** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:59 pm

need we a solution Korm ?

I think not, I still say its by the intelligence of the player, the rest, when he plays against the rules, is by the GM's

Edit:

the hack'n slay would be better then when the nOObie Isle is realized, or anything else in this case

Kurga Wolfbane · Post by **Kurga Wolfbane** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:00 pm

Solution:

Kill all Infidels!!!!!

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:02 pm

i think, yes, we need a solution. otherwise i wouldn't have started the topic.

Alytys Lamar · Post by **Alytys Lamar** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:06 pm

Korm Kormsen wrote:i think, yes, we need a solution. otherwise i wouldn't have started the topic.

okay..my meaning is another.
I think its nonsense everything to catch in rules and solutions. Then I can play any PC-Game

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:22 pm

Ku 'Agor wrote:If there was perm death I would stop playing.

What the smile is the point?

Heres a good question

Whats the point now?

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:27 pm

Enjoyment made from character progress.

If there is no definite variable of a character, why bother with anything?

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:29 pm

ok, Ku.
but as a PO i am still modern enough, to think as well about the fun of the weak and the new.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:34 pm

Ku 'Agor wrote:Enjoyment made from character progress.

If there is no definite variable of a character, why bother with anything?

So you play for the sole purpose of character progress

heres a dilema I face with this situation:

Already we have economy, politics, social factions, judicial systems, sex, children, slavery ect ect so on

Yet when someone mentions perma death its "I won't play anymore cause thats no fun"

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:47 pm

It is no fun.

Character progress does not just refer to Skills.

Look at Aristeaus. He has been around for how many years on that one character? After a skill whipe, countless Deaths from aggressive Powergaming players, and endless streams of bullshit that sometimes pass over Illarion he has stood with that ONE character. Why? His character had history, countless friends, and was a legend of Illarion like the gods them fucking selves.

Permadeath would of destroyed all of that a week after it started. Go figure.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:55 pm

I don´t understand where the problem is. Any PO of a char who is well known and acts publicly like town leaders, murderer etc should be open for a perma change of his char -> physical disability, death...

We are reasonable human beings, we should be able to handle that. But if one does not want to risk such a change of his char then he/she should not play one this way.

Any other perma-death-system is crap and ends in frustration.
Point.

Perma changes should be agreed by every relevant players. But if one plays such a char I described above he/she MUST take this risk. Everything else would be damn selfish, we are a COMMUNITY and should act like it. Communication is the key. If you are not cooperative then play single-player games.

just my two cents.

Talaena Landessi · Post by **Talaena Landessi** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:47 pm

Ive always been pro-perma death.

My reasoning is that it keeps people on thier toes, it keeps baddies from running around not thinking about who they piss off or attack and keeps them banding together and training "in the shadows" while they get capable enough to take on people. If your a good guy and your getting killed its becouse your character has put himself in a position where there is a chance of himself getting killed.

As soon as something like that is implemented I can about gaurentee that people would think twice before they attack someone and guess what! Thier characters would MAGICALLY begin to start thinking about thier own well being! WOW! INstead of "Ow, hurt...ow..leg. I R R3T3r|\|, tho nex tym joo will pay!"

I also bet those bandits wont attack people they dont know, or at least they wont be attacking randomly at armed people and such, I bet they would be like "Hmmm....Lets see, he has lots of armor on...I dont know him either...I think we should leave him alone, he might fewk us all up."

I know a very good perma death system. Guess what, some very gifted rpers gave up ILLARION to go play that game together. Pendar, devrah lioness, allura, nia, and some others, including myself for awhile.

It worked somethign liek this:

You only get death counts for PvP combat. You have three death counts. After the third death count you have a 50% chance of dying every time after the third death. NPC's dont contibute to your death counts, and things like poison and exploding potions dont either...

Without a system to keep people who partake in pvp in check, they will always run rampant. With all the threads ive seen like this, where people talk about reforming and getting thier act together and maturing so that pvp rp can run smooth; ive never seen it actually work...

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:49 pm

You guys seriously fail. Badly.

abcfantasy · Post by **abcfantasy** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:52 pm

Ku 'Agor wrote:You guys seriously fail. Badly.

Ku 'Agor wrote:...You have to comment on EVERYTHING, like some kind of interactive god that has Fifty Thousand god damned commandments he needs to hand out.

Seriously, was this needed? No. Why did you post it?

Do you like to see yourself talk?

Ku 'Agor · Post by **Ku 'Agor** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:06 pm

Yeah, but my comments are useless entertaining spam. His are slightly helpfull but useless and annoying.

Again, I win.

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:39 am

most new players play outlaws and someone who would try to roleplay will stick around for a day or two.

as to perm killing, it would never work properly and there would always be an arguement. The only way perm killing would be possible is the way dark ages or whatever has it.. inwhich a character starts out with 3 or 5 expendible lives, after they lose those lives every time they die again they increase the chance of being perma killed. That is the only reasonable way to have perma killing, not when a gang of people attack a single character who is in power; because most times when this is done it is because the single character simply doesn't have his gang to back him up and so wouldn't be fair.

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:01 am

Talaena Landessi wrote:Ive always been pro-perma death.

My reasoning is that it keeps people on thier toes, it keeps baddies from running around not thinking about who they piss off or attack and keeps them banding together and training "in the shadows" while they get capable enough to take on people. If your a good guy and your getting killed its becouse your character has put himself in a position where there is a chance of himself getting killed.

As soon as something like that is implemented I can about gaurentee that people would think twice before they attack someone and guess what! Thier characters would MAGICALLY begin to start thinking about thier own well being! WOW! INstead of "Ow, hurt...ow..leg. I R R3T3r|\|, tho nex tym joo will pay!"

I also bet those bandits wont attack people they dont know, or at least they wont be attacking randomly at armed people and such, I bet they would be like "Hmmm....Lets see, he has lots of armor on...I dont know him either...I think we should leave him alone, he might fewk us all up."

I know a very good perma death system. Guess what, some very gifted rpers gave up ILLARION to go play that game together. Pendar, devrah lioness, allura, nia, and some others, including myself for awhile.

It worked somethign liek this:

You only get death counts for PvP combat. You have three death counts. After the third death count you have a 50% chance of dying every time after the third death. NPC's dont contibute to your death counts, and things like poison and exploding potions dont either...

Without a system to keep people who partake in pvp in check, they will always run rampant. With all the threads ive seen like this, where people talk about reforming and getting thier act together and maturing so that pvp rp can run smooth; ive never seen it actually work...

One of the GM's at that game informed me that no players have actually experienced a perm death at that game, because there's so many ways around it. In essence, there *isn't* a working a perm-death system in place.

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:06 am

Reduce attributes after a person dies, to perhaps the bare minimum for the first day and gradually raise them back up over the course of a week. That would make people think twice about dieing needlessly.

Instead of a week, how about X amount of hours ingame. Like the skill cap system.

Post by **Nitram** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:55 am

Bumbol Woodstock wrote:Reduce attributes after a person dies, to perhaps the bare minimum for the first day and gradually raise them back up over the course of a week. That would make people think twice about dieing needlessly.

Instead of a week, how about X amount of hours ingame. Like the skill cap system.

The only thing that keeps me away from this, is that the required server functions have a slightly bug.

Nitram

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:46 pm

Or, put the skill loss upon death to a STUPID level (for player kills)

This would also allow a lot of blackmail and the like; plus it would make people think twice about running away from prision, and it would make prisons acceptable.

Post by **Nitram** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:56 pm

Would you like your character killed once or twice per day by some others who just want to throw your character back to the very beginning?

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:20 pm

That would be so awesomely frustrating and stupid way of trying to make it work. The strongest fighters (best stat + skill combination) would reign supreme and remain as strongest forever, simply because no-one could ever gain high enough skill to challenge them, because they would simply die and be back to square one.

Why are you still reading this text, Nitram? Go and fix that goddamn bug.