Game Balance - Suggestions wanted

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:21 pm

Okay, skill learning reduction has gone into effect and experienced by all.

This has helped in most cases, but has unbalanced in some cases.

I'm interested in hearing what specific skills should be either raised or lowered in terms of difficulty and why. This thread is not about any new skills that should be added.

Understand, this should be taken over the life of a character's view, not just high levels.

"Bring them all back up to the way they were" won't work, and will simply be ignored.

A 10 page post might gets skimmed, but probably not read

And please, for my benefit, post in English.

Thank you

Serpardum

Christiana · Post by **Christiana** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:27 pm

fishing is to easy, you can catch hundred of fish in a few minutes. i little bit more difficult were nice

Malgallad · Post by **Malgallad** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:39 pm

To me is baking for to easy.

A Char of mine hasnt done it his whole life before and got with baking 10 times nearly the same skill level he got in gem cutting.

And this skill he`s working on for days.
So my opinion is, that baking is far to easy or gemcutting to heavy.
Sure gemcutting should be harder to achieve than baking, but not as much as i have experienced it.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:58 pm

I dont have a problem with the gemcutting thing, but there's like a 5% success rate

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:31 pm

i think Goldsmitthing is to hard to learn. In former times it was heavy that was ok,but now i think newbies have not realy a chance to become a good goldsmith.
In my opinion the other skills are ok.

Shi Long · Post by **Shi Long** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:52 pm

Yes i think gem cutting is very hard to learn, because you can't find very much gems, compared to iron and ore... and then the succesrate of, lets see: 700 raw gems cut and got about 50 cut gems, about 7 % (at the beginning)
So i think its a little bit hard to become a gemcutter.

And yes Fieps is right, if it's now more heavy to goldsmith like before... then i can only say... much to hard! I only got a mastergoldmith, because Sun did help me so much...

But on the other side, this can help... If it is so hard to get good skills, so there won't be much people who try to learn that profession... (i hope so

)
On the other hand, if you get killed it will take a very long time again to get the old skills back... a very very hard punischment, especially for unguilty poor victims.

Hmmm, not so easy to say what way is the best or better.

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:02 pm

Well, im a noob and i have to train at the 10 times harder thing, and blacksmithing is very hard for me. However i like it, in real life blacksmiths train all their lives to be good, so this blacksmithing should be hard. But i think fighting is pretty darn easy.

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:03 pm

The skills of cutting wood and mining could be changed a little bit.

The probability to harvest raw materials should be be lowered and the wear of tools should be more dependent on the skill.

Shi'voc · Post by **Shi'voc** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:09 pm

imo it's pointless to talk about rebalancing skills yet...
there are some necessary changes which will change the balance as well which should be implemented before trying to rebalance anything...

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:03 pm

This might not strictly apply to this thread but lennier made me think of it, tools break way to easy. I mean yes its good that they wear, but to fast. A good uber axe would last you years not about 150 trees. Also weapons dont wear out. Im not sure what you lote are up to with this, but I think it would be good if you could repair your tools after they start to wear.. like the axe becoems dull so you need to sharpen it.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:42 pm

@Separdum In my experience so far, magic I think is still too easy to learn. I experiemented with the new system and magical skills and I found that practicing a skill for a few minutes still brought my skills up too much. I think that learning magic should be made perhaps harder, as magic is of the mind and all mind-related things should be extremely difficult to learn and difficult to lose. For now that is all I have noticed that needs some balancing.

Thank you for reading!

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:50 pm

I would lower the success rates for glass items at low skill level. I remember that when I learned glass blowing, even at low skill bottles had a success rate of almost 100%.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:35 am

Magic is a is a nightmare, fighting is just right but still a bit hard, baking is a nightmare, smithing is just right, wood cutting is a tad hard, peasantry is a tad hard, goldsmithing is a tad hard, reading is a headache [need more stuff to read so its interesting], lets see... thats about it everything else seems just about right.

ah yes and gem crafting, really hard, as mentioned earlier in this forum.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:41 am

I'm not quite sure about the magic thing because it can easily be relative to how many mana potions you have, and how much practice you consider to be normal, as well as the fact that many people who call themselves master mages are only skilled in the runes for the strongest or most useful spells and barely touch the weak spells.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:29 am

I do not see how anyone can say that magic is easy to gain in "a few minutes"... I have been practicing magic for about 10-15 minutes a day for a few weeks now and I have found NO change in my skills whatsoever..

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:28 pm

I'd have to say that some quest related things should hit us less hard.
I'm sure you all remember the wraith thing, and in that I was killed once. However I lost ALL my weapon and magic skill.
I don't wuite see how that can balance anything out...

Captain Kirk · Post by **Captain Kirk** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:54 pm

Hallo

i think like Shi'voc

Bye
Read ya
MfG

Capt. Kirk

Golum · Post by **Golum** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:56 pm

Im a noob and dont know enough to really say anything important, but im having alot of trouble with blacksmithing. I dont think that the skill goes up too slowy, as it should be hard to learn... My beef is only that i think the begining learning curve should be a little more steep. I dont care if it is less sucessful or whatever, but it takes forever to learn how to make an Axe(woodcutting) for example. Ive spent almost three days straight doing mostly mining and smithing. To give you a jugement of how much time ive spent, ive made almost 3 silver ignots making 2gp items and i still cant make my second set of tools.

Its kind of hard to do anything other that smithing at the begining because its taking so long to learn how to make axes, siscors, saws, sickles, ect.

Im not saying to make blacksmithing easier, just make it a bit easier to learn how to make more tools than just a shovel needle and hammer.

but like i said im just a noob so dont take my suggestions too heavily =)

Bumbol Woodstock · Post by **Bumbol Woodstock** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:22 am

maybe with your 3 ingots you could perhaps buy an axe at the shop... anyways, im new two, but i agree that smithing the second set of weapons should be easier cause ive smithed longer then him and still no second set.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:22 am

My personal feeling is that Blacksmithing is about right. Blacksmithing is going to be going through a lot of changes anyway, but I think the learning curve for blacksmithing is just about perfect.

Sir Gannon · Post by **Sir Gannon** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:34 am

As far as it goes and i have tested the ones im about to tell.

Glassblowing: FAR to easy its almost like you never even touched it.
Blacksmithing: I was one level from master (cause i died) when the new skill system went into effect. It took me one hour give or take to gain about 3 letters... Fair but needs to be better.
Fishing:Not TO much harder but still easy to gain and use.
Carpentry: Well i thought this one a bit hard back when you had it set low with imortal axes. Now it seems to be balanced right. With axes and such.
Gemcutting:If you were going for almost impossible, you got it. But still with about 150 or so gems im up one letter. So it seems about what goldsmithing used to be.
Goldsmithing: A BIT to hard but not by much.
Bakeing: Still REALLY easy if you know how to do it.
Pheasentry: Yet again VERY easy if you know how to do it.

Thats all i have at the moment. Will test some more and let you know.

Moyáve · Post by **Moyáve** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:23 am

You say everything was so easy, i can't agree with that. Maybe it's easy if you play 5 hours a day, but if you don't have time to play everyday it takes ages sometimes. My suggestion would be to leave the fighting skills gaining as it is now, make the magic skill learning far easier and all crafting skills ecxept fishing and mining a bit easier.

martin · Post by **martin** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:19 pm

@moyave:
there's a flaw in your reasoning.
lets say, you always gain 1 point on your skill for every hour you play.
hans and you started playing at the same time, let's say 5 month ago. hans plays 2 hours a day in average, you play only one hour every other day (which means the same as if you'd play 0,5 hours a day). so, after 5 month, which approximatly are 150 days, hans gains 150*2=300 points.
you gain 150*0,5=75 points. hans' skill is 4 times as high as yours is.

now, suppose skillgaining is easier. you gain 2 points every hour; hans again plays 300 hours in 5 month, which means that he gains 600 skillpoints. you play only 75 hours and therefore have 150 skillpoints in the end. again, hans skill is 4 times as high as yours is.

therefore, changing the skillgainingrates (in a linear way) does NOT alter the relation between skills of different characters which makes your argument rather pointless. it's just a rescaling of the skillbar which does not affect the relation between different chars.

martin

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:24 pm

Mining and gem finding ratios are perfect, leave it

Sir Gannon · Post by **Sir Gannon** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:08 am

Unless you want blacksmithing items a little more rare, There fine I agree with Fooser.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:00 am

Gold finding is really hard. I dont know what you people do all day but it takes me forever to find a few gold nuggets and no I am not new to it.

(unfortunately i will have to start saying things like "and no i dont..." before hand because some people say the most obvious things and it really ticks me off and they never consider the other variables that effect the person)

Well back to discussing. Druid skills seem right to me. Yes carpentering is really a nuisance and hard.

I really wonder why is fishing in 'CRAFTSMANSHIP SKILLS' ???????????? You have to be smarter then that to put it there

why not put it in 'OTHER SKILLS' ?

Eh is there going to be a way to increase language skills and is there going to be a use for it? cause something has to be done to it.

Well thats all i could think for now

Moyáve · Post by **Moyáve** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 8:21 am

@ martin: du scheinst nicht verstanden zu haben was ich gemeint habe...Es ist klar ,dass jeder Spieler egal wie oft er spielt, es gleich viel schwerer hat skills zu steigern. Was ich aber sagen will ist dass es nun bald nurnoch den Viel-Spielern überhaupt möglich ist einen Skill zu steigern. Nehmen wir einfach an Hans1 der 1 Stunde pro Tag spielt, schmiedet eine halbe davon. Hans2 der 3 Stunden pro Tag spielt, schmiedet 1 1/2 davon. Hans1 kann mit bloßem Auge keine Veränderung seiner Skills bemerken. Hans2 sieht eine kleine Veränderung. Damit wird Hans 1 frustriert sein. Hans 2 jedoch wird sich vielleicht noch eine Stunde hinstellen und buddeln, wobei Hans 1 aufgibt. Mir geht es wie Hans1, ich habe das Gefühl, mein Char kann eigentlich überhaupt nichts mehr lernen, ohne dass ich 3 Stunden täglich spiele.Aber nun weiter in Englisch damit alle es verstehen (?).

Do i feel right that it has no not only become harder to gain a skill, but also to craft an item, which brings skill? Example: Today i have tried to smith some axes,(normal lumberjacking axes) normaly my Char can make ~4 axes from 10 ores and coals. Today i needed 60 ores and coals to smith a single axe!
Well...the purpose, as i see it, of this is to make the Items more expensive. But i think this is not going to be the case. Remember that older Player's Chars still can make these axes more or less easily. And some still have tons of them in their depots. So what will the change bring?
Inequality(....) I hope you all know what i mean, so that i don't have to explain with my bad english

Correct me if i have made a logical error.
My suggestion would be to undo the recent changes, but make a more logical change: A Platemail needs as much ore as a needle....I think that is the mistake. A Char should need 1 ore for a needle and 50 ore for a platemail. That would really raise the worth of a platemail, and every Char would have the same chances.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 8:32 am

Moyáve wrote:@ martin: du scheinst nicht verstanden zu haben was ich gemeint habe...

Serpardum wrote:And please, for my benefit, post in English.

Moyáve wrote:...My suggestion would be to undo the recent changes, but make a more logical change: A Platemail needs as much ore as a needle....I think that is the mistake. A Char should need 1 ore for a needle and 50 ore for a platemail. That would really raise the worth of a platemail, and every Char would have the same chances.

Serpardum wrote:"Bring them all back up to the way they were" won't work, and will simply be ignored.

Moyáve · Post by **Moyáve** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 8:53 am

*raises her arms* Ok...i give up...

Toren the Myrimdon · Post by **Toren the Myrimdon** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:26 am

As hard as gaining skills has been made, its probably a good idea to adjust the high end items to make them harder to get.

Even though i cant smith my second set of tools yet, or carpenter arrows, and it takes about an hour of work to make 3 greater healing potions, ect... Ive already accquired what i *think* are mostly some of the highest quality equipment in the game.

The only two decent solutions i can come up with are to either make even higher end items, and make them drop rare off of "boss" monsters. or to make them harder to make therefore harder to buy.

My thoughts on adjusting item compenants:

For instance under the new skills system it would take what? 100 hours to become a master smith? (making that estimate on my own attempts to learn the trade, and people saying it took them about 10 hours to master it before hand)

So you spend 100 hours to learn how to make the best armor in the game. Then all of the sudden you can make 10 of these armors a minute and can flood the market making them next to worthless(therotically im still a newbie btw).

Now if it takes say 30 peices of coal and iron to make one peice of this armor, and if you fail you loose all 30; Then youve just made the time, effort, and therefore vaule MUCH more proportionate to the time it took to learn how to make it in the first place. *NOTE* If it takes 30 peices of ore to make an item that used to take one, the ammount of skill exp you gain should be 30 times what it was before. Otherwise it would make learning a trade next to impossible. and should also probably sell to a vendor for 30 times what it used to.

This also makes alot of sense consdering that people like myself and other new comers have to work 90% harder to get where everyone else already is. Even the playing feild a bit by adjusting the economy as well.

If you did do this though, it would probably be a good idea to add some new top end items to the list. Since so many plate armors already exist this might somehow set the economy off blance unless there is an introduction of a new item that everyone actually wants to make the effort to get.

And if ya need the new graphics for them id be happy to make them *flexes photoshop skillz*

The biggest downside to this is: Is it really worth trying to work out a new economy, and program all of this into the game? i dunno.. i cant answer that as im not the one programing it.

anyways, just my psuedo logic at work. Feel free to ignore it.