Fighting system

[Siltaris]

I completely agree with shandariel's comment.
I would like it, if parry skill gets better with using weapons like swords or so. Her propsoal makes sense, i guess. maybe you can think about that to implement, martin?

And all in all, new fighting system is well done. Just adjust parry-skill.

[Adano Eles]

Do you want to know what my skills are? They're not mediocre, my slashing is bluish green and my parry is even lower. My armor is torn leather and my swords are looted from the mummies.

I can hold against one mummy in the first crypt level. I can hold against two sometimes.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

I tested it. You attack twice as fast as with 1 dagger. Twice. Two times.

Ack...now i have to apologize *sighs embarassed* when i read it i read "you attack twice as fast with 1 dagger". overread the second "as". So I thought you wrote that one dagger is twice as fast as two. sorry.

But you still behave like an asshole, martin. You are mean in what and how you wrote, and you show alot of arrogance. the way how you wrote is not nice. you really should work on that. Many of us feel offended by the way how you speak with us.


How shall we notice that two swords are less effective? We have no numbers! You never told it how it is planed. for us it was wished by you that we need the same amount of hits with two swords like with one. we couldn't know that it was not what you wanted. Maybe you thought that you can put less strength into the blow when using two weapons than when using just one? could have been possible.

Currently I am testing range weapons. And this weekend I shall post my results about that. but your behaviour now shows me it is maybe not the effort worth, since all you can do is bitching. but i still will do it, because i know there are developers beside you who don't behave like they are better than everyone else. who don't treat us like scum.

[Devrah Windslasher ~]

your behaviour now shows me it is maybe not the effort worth, since all you can do is bitching.

Well. Isn't that what the devlopers always say after threads like this get flamed over and over after they implement something new?

Every coin has two sides : /

[Nalzaxx]

It would take exeptional skill to parry effectively against three armed opponents, three different attacks coming in at different times from different angles, you would be so busy trying to parry one of them you'd get skrewed by the other two, and thats BEFORE you even try to attack back.

If parry is weak, it makes it realisitc, I havn't yet even looked at how it's effected my character yet, but I do know martin works his ass off to make a system for us, and we should appreciate that. As he has repeated numerous times, this is NOT the final version, there is still alot of tweaking to do.

So get off each other's backs and stop moaning about this and that, it will be fixed and balanced eventually, just have a little patience and be grateful the fighting system is getting this makeover in the first place.

I for one have no desire to go back to the days where you could never win if someone had exactly the same armour and attributes as you, but still beat you everytime merely because his skills were a shade of yellow instead of a shade of green.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

I never said I don't appreciate what he does. And the other changes. I said just parry needs to be made better. That was all i wanted to say since the beginning, before someone said i just want to complain.

And nalzaxx, sure, you should have problems parry three opponents. but a char with 16 dexterity, 16 agility, two daggers and a skill of 60 % can't parry a single mummy using one dagger or just his hands!

I don't say you should be able to parry everything. Bute more than now would be better, and also improofing

[Athian]

Shields gave as much parry as 2 fists, this simply isn't right. Less to do with realism and more the fact that they were completely useless. As was said about 3 times now, weapon values will be changed.

yes should have been changed no doubt. any extreme should be changed, but my opinion still stands. my apologies for not being omniscent.

It's not random changes. I tell you something:

The first version which you all liked had the following flaws:
1) Constitution (your amount of maximum hitpoints) did NOT play a role in the first version. A demon with constitution 100 had the same amount of HP that someone with const 11 had. Const was useless, it didn't appear in the fighting process.
2) You parried blows nearly independend of your equipment (meaning that you also parried without equipment)
3) You parried blows nearly independend of your parry skill (meaning that someone with parry 4 and no equipment parried nearly as good as someone with skill 99% and two shields)
4) Fighting with 2 weapons dealt only 1/2 damage of using 1 weapon, meaning that it was much less effective.
5) Using a shield and a weapon dealt also about 1/2 of the damage of using just a sword.

These things HAD to be corrected. None of you even noticed these things, but now you're the great experts everyone, telling me what to do and what not. It's like the blind telling me what colors a painting should have.

So please, stfu. Thanks.

Martin

no problem with this aside from the part of being told to stfu. so a fond F*** you Martin. i think i mentioned in one of my posts that it was confusing only because these aren't updates rather just very sudden changes that you'll only here about if you visit this topic several times a day. so yes they would seem rather random in that case don't you think? that was my only issue, whatever you do you the system you make is your business after all what can we do to stop you, we'll all adjust to it eventually but people are entitled to there opinions.

maybe next time you do a change or what not you might ask for specific input? like how said items/weapons effect players with said stats and skills. it'll stop people from repeating the obvisous(which will save you a headache), allow opinions to get out a bit and make you look like less of a ____(insert obscenity)

[martin]

I ask specific players for input, I won't ask here for input because I know that most of you are not really good at objectively judge about something like that.
That's my experience.
Sorry for that.

Martin

[Nalzaxx]

Besides, its easier to test things effectively and accurately with access to GM tools.

[Quinasa]

...But you still behave like an asshole, martin. You are mean in what and how you wrote, and you show alot of arrogance. the way how you wrote is not nice. you really should work on that. Many of us feel offended by the way how you speak with us....


...but your behaviour now shows me it is maybe not the effort worth, since all you can do is bitching.

Its because he's married to a bitch, you know. We bitch constantly!

Seriously. The only reason he treats you so is because you freak out on him. He's being honest and blunt, if you would rather flowery and pouty compliance and pity then you're barking up the wrong tree. He implimented a new system that he worked damn hard on and of course there are bugs that need to be worked out of every system. But you dear, take complaining to a new level and beyond. So test, yes please test. But stop your complainging. He may behave like an asshole but its because you behave like a baby. Its an effing game.

[Athian]

if thats the case then the sinmple question is why make a topic to discuss the system as such and leave it open for public veiw and response. If only specific peoples are testing then why not move the entire topic to an internal board? it's fairly obvisous that anyone stating an opinion that isn't liked will just have a shot taken at them. if you don't want input from anything but a specific source don't put it in public veiw, or if you must at least lock it.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

I don't behaved like a baby. i posted on a normal way my thoughts and my results, than he started bitching on me. of course i respond than the same way

[Misjbar]

I changed the fighting system a little today.
Fights will now, in general, need more time, individual hits will take less hitpoints. Constitution will now play a more important rule than before.

Martin

He did not technically ask you to test Athian hun.

Anyhow, if you really wish to test every single thing, maybe try and send martin a PM, explaining why you would be good as a tester, and whether he could send you a PM back specifying what he feels needs testing.
But then again, maybe he has enough input already or the likes. I for one always learned that PMs fix a greater deal than threads such as this *shrugs*.

[Athian]

i didn't test Misjbar. i went about my characters daily routine and noticed a sudden and very large difference, so don't go jumping to any conlusions. i don't go out with the intention of testing every system aspect. but the unannounced change is what brought my attention here. as i said before, it's a topic left in a public forum with access to all. if you don't want input then you don't put something like this here, where it's obvisous just form past experience alone. that input will be given.

[Quinasa]

It was better for him to announce the changes than have 600 new topics about it pop up.

[Misjbar]

I mean you then shouldn't, from past experiences learning, expect him to use the actual input.

[Siltaris]

I think this thread is going in a wrong direction, because of two reasons:

1) Firstly, personal offences do not help anybody. We all want a good and well balanced new fighting system. So let us act in concert. Of course, martin had much work and effort with developing this fighting system, so his reactions are naturally in a way. But at the same time, you have to ask yourself how to test the new system, which leads to point two:

2) You opened this thread for informing us about new fighting system which is online in Ill. You did not tell much about all the specific changes, just that we should try out... well, now we play Ill and consquently we test it, if we want or not, whenever fighting with a char. Naturaly, we give feedback on things we do not like, in hope that some of our comments can help to adjust fighting system in a postive way. Obviously, the first fighting system uploaded was not the final version. So we play with a interim-version where adjustments are needed. So what I want to say is, that everyone who plays Illarion with this new (interim) fighting system has the right to tell her/his opinion... and programmers should regard these comments and see it as a help to improve quality of fighting system.

The other way you could handle it, would be to upload the fighting system on a seperate server or test in any other way with only some people BEFORE you upload it so everyone has to play with an interim version. Then you can fix most things on your own. Of course, there still would be comments on unbalanced things some people do not like. But then read the comments, think about them and maybe test if this would be a good improvement for the fighting system.

Well, I have joined this community just some weeks ago, but what I think about Illarion is that it is a game from people who like roleplaying FOR people who like roleplaying. So pull together for achieving best results...

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

Thank you Siltaris. Wise spoken

[Gort Greegog]

The main problem for me is it is completely DUMB to not be able to block/parry easaly with a staff ot sword. I cannot evan train onanything/anyon worth while because I fear all my equiptment will break. In just 4 skeletons I had corroded armor greaves and leggings. My weapons also seem to break far to fast. The current system is without a doubt the worst it has ever been. I think some people forget how incredibly complex it would be to make this realistic because of the fact it's a game.

[martin]

The other way you could handle it, would be to upload the fighting system on a seperate server or test in any other way with only some people BEFORE you upload it so everyone has to play with an interim version.

This is what we of course have done.
However, 4 people testing for about 3 days in total will not find out what 40 people find in 2 weeks. Furthermore, on a Testserver you don't play until you reach a certain level or gain a certain equipment -- you just assume this and that, which might turn out to be completely wrong.

So, if you had the impression that we're uploading untested versions of different things, you're wrong. The FS as it was in the first version was in a testing phase of several weeks.

Martin

[martin]

The main problem for me is it is completely DUMB to not be able to block/parry easaly with a staff ot sword.

We heard that already. Stop repeating everything a thousand times. The only thing this will lead to is an angry programer.

Martin

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

I ask specific players for input, I won't ask here for input because I know that most of you are not really good at objectively judge about something like that.
That's my experience.
Sorry for that.

Martin

This is what we of course have done.
However, 4 people testing for about 3 days in total will not find out what 40 people find in 2 weeks. Furthermore, on a Testserver you don't play until you reach a certain level or gain a certain equipment -- you just assume this and that, which might turn out to be completely wrong.

First you say you won't ask others than that few testers for input, than that you need all others because that few can't find everything. Makes no sense, martin. First you say you don't need us, than that you do. So what is now right?

[Quinasa]

Whats right is that if you want to lend your help then maybe you should offer to be on the test team. But I don't understand where you see something that doesn't make sense. What he said makes perfect sense. Give it a few more days and see how the skills progress. If you're still having a problem then PM one of the Devs.

[Athian]

The main problem for me is it is completely DUMB to not be able to block/parry easaly with a staff ot sword.

We heard that already. Stop repeating everything a thousand times. The only thing this will lead to is an angry programer.

Martin

uuh...what he said.

and the system itself is fine. just need some fine tuning. you haven't seen a bad system unless you remember the old, one hit kill, fire sword and shield,block demons with two shields endlessly days. it may not be fun but read back through the nonsense and you'll find whats been mentioned already.

[Quinasa]

Thank you. Everyone knows the fighting system has been altered. Have a nice day.

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