Fighting system

[martin]

This doesn't just affect daggers. Now it is virtually not possible to fight without using the weapon+shield combo, what would lead to a lack of variety, because if any other weapon is pointless you won't use it.

What about groups?
One blocking the blows of the enemy, the others hitting it with their two handed weapons.

Martin

[Poots]

martin you get a big-ass suit of armour and a two handed sword, I get leather and two daggers. dodge it, and make sure my daggers don't pierce the armour cause then it wouldn't be realistic

not trying to complain about anything, just pointing out that everythiing in this game can't be related to rl, and it never will be that way.


edit:

@martin again,

that could work on npcs, but real players would usualy go for the weak attacker, noot the full suit of armour dude.

[Retlak]

ACTUALY....

if there was me vs a noob that does no damage and a super fighter.. i would probably not waste time on El Noobio..

[Poots]

I meant weak attacker as the guy who can't defend worth squat yet attacks hard, rather then the guy who's the other way around.

[Gro'bul]

Just because you can't take on 8 skeletons for a day or two, doesn't mean its going to be like this forever, at least, I hope not. Can your char not take 2-3 days off from killing 100's of monsters?

[Retlak]

Right now my char is almost dead, so yes.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:
it is surely possible for someone with a dagger to parry an other dagger. but not in this game. not anymore


I'd like to make some tests with you IRL.
I get the sword, you get two daggers, I want to see you parry my blows. Please, please, please.
Please.

Martin

please, please, please, please read again what i wrote, Martin. Please read before you answer. I never wrote parrieng a sword, i wrote parrieng an other dagger, or someone swinging a fist.
Go to a martial art fighter trained at the dagger and swing a dagger or fist at him, and see how it ends. you was in the army, you ever got trained in knife fighting? using a knife in melee combat?

And yes, you also can block a sword with two daggers, if you do it right, and have the skills on the weapon.

[Athian]

agreed. blocking a sword on daggers is not impossible. remember a dagger isn't a knife. it's usually larger then five inches at the blade not including the guard. and irl yes you can parry a sword with a dagger. to parry in itself to to turn aside the force of the blow not take it head on. turning aside a sword with a dagger is possible, i've done it. more over blocking anything with a two handed wepaon is also possible. most staves are based as defensive weapons. not offensive ones for instance. it takes practise but it's possible for sure.

if you want to grab a sword and i'll grab some dagger i can prove you wrong pretty quick Martin

but my question is why so much realism anyway. every heard of to much of a good thing? all this tweaking doesn't seem nessacary, just really confusing.

[Gro'bul]

but my question is why so much realism anyway. every heard of to much of a good thing? all this tweaking doesn't seem nessacary, just really confusing.

Multi-classing. This isn't easy! For too long fighting has been a mono-class system. Bows are now viable, but 2 handed weapons and 1h/shield is hard to balance. It may take some days to adjust weapon values. Realism is good because, in this situation, people in real life thought up real ways to defeat and defend against certain things in certain situations. In bringing some realism in, we can bring in balance and tactics. An attempt to make people use some of their brain when fighting uber-monsters, without making those monsters 2-hit killers, but also giving ample rewards too.

[Xavtrax]

nvm

[Athian]

relaism is fine and i have nothing against it. but it is a game. but your missing my point. if we go for perfect realism even the system we have now makes no sense, it just seems to me that everytime we have something that finally everyone is accepting and getting used to in comes another random change, it's hard to get used to them week by week.

[Poots]

peter pan blocked captain hook's sword with a dagger....several times in fact.


realism does get wierd when you put too much in it.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

Realism is good because, in this situation, people in real life thought up real ways to defeat and defend against certain things in certain situations. In bringing some realism in, we can bring in balance and tactics. An attempt to make people use some of their brain when fighting uber-monsters, without making those monsters 2-hit killers, but also giving ample rewards too.

That means every warrior has to carry 3 sets of armor, a shield, two different singlehanded weapons, two different twohanded blades and two different twohanded blunt weapons with him just to be able to be a good warrior. right? very realistic, very fun.

i hoped the new fighting system will give someone in light armor and two swords or daggers a chance, but no. because in that you are quicker dead than you can count until 3. and dodge is very hard to get. with light armor you attack the same spead with two daggers like wearing heavy armor. oh fun. two daggers are slower than a single dagger...oh fun. two daggerfighting is usual quicker than one dagger fighting!

[Garett Gwenour]

since arameh cant post and I think he a relevant issue. It appears since parrying is so rare now, that armour deteriorates at a very rapid pace. I would think parrying should be a bit better just so that a trip to the mummys doesn't cost you an armour set per trip... as that isnt realistic.

[NirAntae]

The armor Maggie is wearing right now was 'slightly scratched plate armor' I believe when she got it.

I have been sent to the cross by skeletons, in addidition to fighting three of them, and made at *least* five trips to the mummies.

It is now 'average rusty'.

Armor may deteriorate faster now, but it isn't *that* bad.

[Garett Gwenour]

No no, she went prior to this lack of parry change. Now you will find that armour will be gone in one trip.

[Gro'bul]

relaism is fine and i have nothing against it. but it is a game. but your missing my point. if we go for perfect realism even the system we have now makes no sense, it just seems to me that everytime we have something that finally everyone is accepting and getting used to in comes another random change, it's hard to get used to them week by week.

Shields gave as much parry as 2 fists, this simply isn't right. Less to do with realism and more the fact that they were completely useless. As was said about 3 times now, weapon values will be changed.

That means every warrior has to carry 3 sets of armor, a shield, two different singlehanded weapons, two different twohanded blades and two different twohanded blunt weapons with him just to be able to be a good warrior. right? very realistic, very fun.

i hoped the new fighting system will give someone in light armor and two swords or daggers a chance, but no. because in that you are quicker dead than you can count until 3. and dodge is very hard to get. with light armor you attack the same spead with two daggers like wearing heavy armor. oh fun. two daggers are slower than a single dagger...oh fun. two daggerfighting is usual quicker than one dagger fighting!

1st para: No, just get 3 warriors. A warrior with conc and a warrior with slash can kill most things at about the same rate, dependant on what they are fighting, and the npc's armor values obviously. An archer can accually probobly kill these things alot faster than both, obviously much less defense with the weapon.

2nd para:light armor means you have to find some other way than head to head combat, this was the reason for the invention of heavy armor *ding!*. Two weapons are completely viable damage wise. Two daggers is statistically not slower than 2, its accually about .5 seconds faster per hit, and the same speed as dagger/shield. Two daggers is more powerful than 1. Parry formula was the only thing changed last script update, anything else is has nothing to do with it and existed previously. Puncture seems not to work very well right now. This stuff takes time, and this hasn't even been in effect for more than a day now.

Also:Npc's, mostly mages, who do alot of damage but use no weapon will now have no chance to parry.

[NirAntae]

No no, she went prior to this lack of parry change. Now you will find that armour will be gone in one trip.

No, two of the trips were today.

True, she didn't parry as much... but the armor didn't get severely damaged and certainly not destroyed.

Her staff did though... -.-

[martin]

it just seems to me that everytime we have something that finally everyone is accepting and getting used to in comes another random change, it's hard to get used to them week by week.

It's not random changes. I tell you something:

The first version which you all liked had the following flaws:
1) Constitution (your amount of maximum hitpoints) did NOT play a role in the first version. A demon with constitution 100 had the same amount of HP that someone with const 11 had. Const was useless, it didn't appear in the fighting process.
2) You parried blows nearly independend of your equipment (meaning that you also parried without equipment)
3) You parried blows nearly independend of your parry skill (meaning that someone with parry 4 and no equipment parried nearly as good as someone with skill 99% and two shields)
4) Fighting with 2 weapons dealt only 1/2 damage of using 1 weapon, meaning that it was much less effective.
5) Using a shield and a weapon dealt also about 1/2 of the damage of using just a sword.

These things HAD to be corrected. None of you even noticed these things, but now you're the great experts everyone, telling me what to do and what not. It's like the blind telling me what colors a painting should have.

So please, stfu. Thanks.

Martin

[martin]

two daggers are slower than a single dagger...oh fun.

FUN!

And wrong.

Are you wanting to fool us? I mean -- it's simply NOT TRUE. I tested it. You attack twice as fast as with 1 dagger. Twice. Two times.

Please go and annoy someone else.

Martin

[martin]

The armor Maggie is wearing right now was 'slightly scratched plate armor' I believe when she got it.

I have been sent to the cross by skeletons, in addidition to fighting three of them, and made at *least* five trips to the mummies.

It is now 'average rusty'.

Armor may deteriorate faster now, but it isn't *that* bad.

I tell you a secret now:
When you look at an armor, you see a *random* thing, depending on your perception and skill in producing this item.
A good smith with good perception can exactly tell you how good an armor is, you can't.

However, you always see the same value when clicking it ten times in a row -- that is because I implemented a clever algorithm making it useless to click it hundreds of times to get an exacter value. You always get the same random value.
However, if the armor looses one hitpoint, you get another random value -- it might even be that you think it has become better now.

So, in fact, if you're not a good smith with good eyes, you can be mistaken when it comes to judging the ageing speed of your equipment

Martin

[Adano Eles]

Anyone who says you don't parry with two weapons any more obviously didn't look at the screen during fighting. I will say it again. I ONLY use two swords and light armor and my char behaves almost the same against mummies as before the change. The only difference is that the equipment I use at the moment is complete junk.

[Miklorius]

However, if the armor looses one hitpoint, you get another random value -- it might even be that you think it has become better now.

Eh, really?! I would say that even a total "anti-smith" could see that an armor is worse than before a fight.

All the other flaws you described really had to be fixed, so thank you. I think one problem is that there is not very often hard facts what was changed in the system.

[martin]

Eh, really?! I would say that even a total "anti-smith" could see that an armor is worse than before a fight.

Okay, you guy do the programming.

Martin

[Miklorius]

Okay, you guy do the programming.

Come on, that was not meant to be offensive! Sorry.
Just my thoughs how it works in reality... (I am PRO this perception-/skill-based quality system)

[martin]

Why did you consider my statement as offensive then?

Martin

[Miklorius]

Why did you consider my statement as offensive then?

Because I thought it was offensive... Damn foreign languages .
Alright, let's stop OT talk, back to topic. You are doing a great work, peace!

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

Martin, i advice you to stop being such an asshole here. stop telling us to shut up, and making us down. we are the testers here, we test the game, and we write here our opinions. many of us know that you are not like that in rl, you behave just here at the forum as an asshole and treat us bad, so please stop it. we all want to improve the game. no need to treat us like that.


And yes, two daggers are faster. while you pull the first one back to stab again you stab with the other one. if you are good with daggers, you are faster since you can also stab in the break you need for readying the other dagger. same with swords. it depents on your skill and your technique. I don't know how YOU tested that.


And you seem to misundertood what we were wroting here. most of us don't complained on the changes you listed up. we are happy that they happened. but the current parry system is not good. it is too extrem. too bad for those using not a shield or heavy armor.

A warrior using light armor and quick weapons like daggers, or swords, can't even fight mummies anymore alone. not even with mediocre skills. and mummies are one of the weakest monsters. you get hit every time. out of 30 hits you parry one. that is too few for someone with skills around 60-70 %.

And no, don't say now don't go fight alone. this game is not yet big enough that every time someone wants to go fighting monsters can gather a group of warriors around himself.

All we want is that parry without shield gots better than it is now. it don't have to be as good as with shield, but better than it is now!

big weapons parry bad smaller weapons. smaller weapons parry bad big weapons. big weapons parry good big weapons, small weapons parry good small weapons. shield parrys everything very good, but small weapons less good than big weapons. especially daggers and shortswords are dangers for shieldusers. they are quick and agile, it is difficult to block them with a shield. thats why gladiators used shortswords and long daggers against shieldusers.

[martin]

Martin, i advice you to stop being such an asshole here.

Thanks for the advice, I decide not to follow it since I believe that I'm not an asshole here.

stop telling us to shut up, and making us down. we are the testers here, we test the game, and we write here our opinions.

But some of your opinions are stupid. Sorry to say that.
Noone complained about parrying without shield and skill.
Noone noticed that using two swords is less effective than using one.

So I guess that probably some of you didn't really test enough but just whine around when their chars are a little weaker than before.

"Not in this game. Not anymore." Ah, yes, THAT sounds like a real tester.

Take my advice, stop being stupid.

And yes, two daggers are faster. while you pull the first one back to stab again you stab with the other one.

Stop being stupid.
You fight in game with two daggers twice as fast as with one, allmighty tester.
You seem to have tested that rather good, didn't you?

This is already the case since at least a week. What are you complaining about? I should complain about things not being tested I guess.

I don't know how YOU tested that.

Stopwatch?

And you seem to misundertood what we were wroting here.

My understanding is that it's just the other way round. In this game. Not anymore.

Martin

[Devrah Windslasher ~]

Um. I kind of like the new fighting system. Yes, it greatly reduced my own fighting skills, but I think it makes for a better balance of strengths. Now, it won't come down solely to who spent the most type Ctrl+Clicking with their browser minimized, you know? There are other variables, like there would be in a real fight. Besides, didn't you guys always think t was weird that a mildly skilled warrior could wander off and take out a band of giant trolls twice his height, all by himself?