Magic is far too powerful to be aquired without any RP. The academy is definitely necessary - even if in the beginning, there will be few mages around.
Hooray for the "everything for everyone" thought - but does that help improving roleplay ? Definitely not. "Everyone" with attributes and with lack of behaviour and roleplay could roast everyone else into the ground too. Two marauding powergamed mages could, if supported with enough potions and usind some tactics, wreck up the whole town guard. Do you want that ? Hey, we're not Tibia.
Do not see the academy as a block in the way of learning stuff. See it as what it is - a gigantic chance of improving roleplay.
AND see it as a kind of test - if you make it to be a powerful mage in the end, you're good.
AND - it will become an institution that way. Many other RPGs are even far stricter that illarion is concerning the learning of ingame stuff - where magic academies are run by GMs only, with fixed time plans, learning plans etc., where you have to really learn tons of pages of text to get a single spell granted. Oh and you do need a character story (completely matching the world history, at the length of 2-4 written pages in standard Text (Arial, size 12) to even get the ability to learn spells there... Dammn i'm pretty convinced that our way in illarion is far better, even if it needs a lot of work for the teachers.
Ponderings (yes more of them) about the Magic Academy
Moderator: Gamemasters
-
Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
This Magic Academy system really just pisses me off. Plain and simple. Did anyone run this idea by any of the players? No. Did anyone stop to consider how people can't always be around for this seemingly constant dedication to the game? Obviously not. And now you have to go through these painstakingly retarded lessons that in no way pertain to learning magic, or the way magic works. Its clearly stated as an academy for learning magic, not for becoming educated. The educated people who are willing to learn will be able to learn, and those who are not educated enough will not be able to learn anyway. In no way, shape, or form should this "Magic" Academy be teaching lessons that would be taught to 10 year olds in public school.
Why does everything have to be so god-damned tightly-knit that you have to dedicate your entire day (or very specific portions of it) ingame? Why is it that the methods can't be simple so that people have an opportunity to enjoy the game, rather than consider it a burden. "If you dont like it, then this isn't the game for you" is not a viable answer. It never has been and never will be. Its an incredibly arrogant cop-out for not being able to argue against a topic and a very good reason why many people have called the community "elitist." Some of you may be blissful in your ignorance, but your complete lack of seeing the other side of things only damages a portion of the community that you have to interact with.
And what about all the people who had magic before the removal of magic? How about characters that were literally created to be mages, some even before any of this? Now we're forced to come up with some obscure reasoning for why we are putting up with such retarded lessons like, "Lizards like cake" just so our characters can properly adjust. And that is a perfect example of "bullshit." "Deal with it ingame" you might say, but that's the problem. No one will, because there aren't enough former mages to rally against such a vaguely explained, incredibly controlling organization.
I am incredibly disappointed in how this was launched. Even this, so I thought, is below the staff. I'm sorry if those words hurt, or piss you off, but that's how I feel about this. And to think I was excited about coming back to a functional magic system.
I would also like to add that Illarion is not "other RPGs." Just because other games are stricter, does not mean that Illarion has to meet some invisible standard. The same people that have said "Illarion is not like this, its different" have also said "Many other RPGs are like this and this" as if to compare. Do not choose a hypocritical standpoint in a debate. It is just foolish and keeps an argument spiraling into absolute uselessness.
Why does everything have to be so god-damned tightly-knit that you have to dedicate your entire day (or very specific portions of it) ingame? Why is it that the methods can't be simple so that people have an opportunity to enjoy the game, rather than consider it a burden. "If you dont like it, then this isn't the game for you" is not a viable answer. It never has been and never will be. Its an incredibly arrogant cop-out for not being able to argue against a topic and a very good reason why many people have called the community "elitist." Some of you may be blissful in your ignorance, but your complete lack of seeing the other side of things only damages a portion of the community that you have to interact with.
And what about all the people who had magic before the removal of magic? How about characters that were literally created to be mages, some even before any of this? Now we're forced to come up with some obscure reasoning for why we are putting up with such retarded lessons like, "Lizards like cake" just so our characters can properly adjust. And that is a perfect example of "bullshit." "Deal with it ingame" you might say, but that's the problem. No one will, because there aren't enough former mages to rally against such a vaguely explained, incredibly controlling organization.
I am incredibly disappointed in how this was launched. Even this, so I thought, is below the staff. I'm sorry if those words hurt, or piss you off, but that's how I feel about this. And to think I was excited about coming back to a functional magic system.
I would also like to add that Illarion is not "other RPGs." Just because other games are stricter, does not mean that Illarion has to meet some invisible standard. The same people that have said "Illarion is not like this, its different" have also said "Many other RPGs are like this and this" as if to compare. Do not choose a hypocritical standpoint in a debate. It is just foolish and keeps an argument spiraling into absolute uselessness.
Great.
You don't like it. It seems some does not.
But is there a proposal? No!
So this is really useless.
After everyone told me, what he don't like, i think its my turn.
To say it in Cains words: It pisses me off, that so many, who had nothing to do with the magic, moaning around, that they don't like everything. They just tell me: This is bad, that is bad, but there isn't a single valid proposal, how it should work, else.
But this is the problem with all things the developers do.
If i change anything, i can be sure: "Ohhh! This is not good, change it back"
Is there a thank you? Maybe 3 or 4.
Are there complainings about the changing? YES! At least one hundret!
This is really motivating. I don't know, why i do all this work, for a community, that tells me, everything i do is bad.
If you don't have the time to go throw the academy, you don't have enougth time to play a mage. This is my point of view. At least in this way, the magic is something special and not something common. Not all "oh i want to become a mage" become a mage, when they can't rp like a mage.
Nitram
You don't like it. It seems some does not.
But is there a proposal? No!
So this is really useless.
After everyone told me, what he don't like, i think its my turn.
To say it in Cains words: It pisses me off, that so many, who had nothing to do with the magic, moaning around, that they don't like everything. They just tell me: This is bad, that is bad, but there isn't a single valid proposal, how it should work, else.
But this is the problem with all things the developers do.
If i change anything, i can be sure: "Ohhh! This is not good, change it back"
Is there a thank you? Maybe 3 or 4.
Are there complainings about the changing? YES! At least one hundret!
This is really motivating. I don't know, why i do all this work, for a community, that tells me, everything i do is bad.
If you don't have the time to go throw the academy, you don't have enougth time to play a mage. This is my point of view. At least in this way, the magic is something special and not something common. Not all "oh i want to become a mage" become a mage, when they can't rp like a mage.
Nitram
-
Kevin Lightdot
- Posts: 2849
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:17 pm
- Location: Green again
No comment on that one...The only thing that i find pretty anoying is the times at witch the lessons are. But i guess it would be hard to change that unless there are more copies of one lesson.
*sneaks back to Cassy's bed before getting flamed to death.*
And: Thank you for this game and everything around it even though i hardly play lately.
-
Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
I do appreciate that we have staff members that work to build a game which we can play. Don't get me wrong there. But likewise, don't get upset when people complain about an idea, when you never bothered to ask what the players might think of what it is that you're trying to accomplish. I didn't put one suggestion in my post because there truly is no place to put it. I'll be PMing you later with my ideas, make no mistake. I saw your post in the other topic which was locked, the one that said we should send you a PM with ideas. As this was not the proper place for it, I did not place it here. I simply wish to express my own opinion. This is still allowed, right?
Why should a mage have to require considerably more time ingame to learn how to use spells than a warrior to learn the arts of swordsmanship? Each would require a great amount of dedication.. and if you have to make an organization to keep out these bad seeds that can't RP a mage, then make an organization to keep out those who can't RP a warrior either. If you can't do that, then remove the former. I know you want suggestions and like I said, I will give you some when I am able, but sometimes harsh words have to be said.
*flames Kevin to death for sneaking to Cassy's bed.*
If a player can't RP a mage, then that is something they should work out in their time, not everyone else's. People can't learn when they are completely rejected. If people are being rejected because someone suspects they won't be able to roleplay a mage, then that is a mix of ooc/ic and an incredible disservice to everyone else, I feel. Everyone's always whining about not mixing the two in things like this, so why start now? The features of the game need to be available to the players so they can learn to use them to their full potential. Like I said, if a player doesn't know how to properly RP a mage, he needs to have the opportunity to learn. Playing ANY role whatsoever in this game should not require so much dedication that it forces you to make drastic exceptions in real life. This system only enforces the idea that you should dedicate all your free-time to the game.Nitram wrote:Not all "oh i want to become a mage" become a mage, when they can't rp like a mage.
Why should a mage have to require considerably more time ingame to learn how to use spells than a warrior to learn the arts of swordsmanship? Each would require a great amount of dedication.. and if you have to make an organization to keep out these bad seeds that can't RP a mage, then make an organization to keep out those who can't RP a warrior either. If you can't do that, then remove the former. I know you want suggestions and like I said, I will give you some when I am able, but sometimes harsh words have to be said.
*flames Kevin to death for sneaking to Cassy's bed.*
-
Kevin Lightdot
- Posts: 2849
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:17 pm
- Location: Green again
This is in no way a complaint, because I like the fact that we have to RP our way into magery, but it has been inconvenient for me to try to make the lesson times. I'm in the US (GMT -5), and the lessons are usually just around dinner time, or just in general a time that I am unable to get on the net.Misjbar wrote:*pokes in*
Whom are the ones that are bothered with the times? Could you mention wether you are American or European (English or German)? Also mention why those times are bad, and which times are better.
From what I've been hearing from Damien, the time it takes to actually raise your casting skill is phenomenal. Therefore, if one cannot afford the time ingame to learn through the academy and attend lessons, then it will hardly be worth learning any magic.
I also have a busy life and there are time when I cannot make the lesson in the allocated time. On these occasions though I find a way to learn elsewhere. Either from the notes, from another novice that attended the lesson, or from the teacher themselves when they have a moment to spare. Playing mage characters is not easy, and by their pure nature are elitist. Not everyone can play a mage, or atleast well enough to do a good job of it. This is where the education and all the lessons around the actual teaching of magic come into their element. They make mages what they should be, learned and educated scholars, not ignorant carpenters that can throw fireballs around.
I personally would like to thank the entire development team AND those who saw the academy put into action IG. I can understand some players' frustration at the academy, and so perhaps an alternate system should be introduced. However, as it is my position that the academy is one of the greatest organisations to have ever blessed Illarion, I shall not offer a proposal to that alternative system.
I also have a busy life and there are time when I cannot make the lesson in the allocated time. On these occasions though I find a way to learn elsewhere. Either from the notes, from another novice that attended the lesson, or from the teacher themselves when they have a moment to spare. Playing mage characters is not easy, and by their pure nature are elitist. Not everyone can play a mage, or atleast well enough to do a good job of it. This is where the education and all the lessons around the actual teaching of magic come into their element. They make mages what they should be, learned and educated scholars, not ignorant carpenters that can throw fireballs around.
I personally would like to thank the entire development team AND those who saw the academy put into action IG. I can understand some players' frustration at the academy, and so perhaps an alternate system should be introduced. However, as it is my position that the academy is one of the greatest organisations to have ever blessed Illarion, I shall not offer a proposal to that alternative system.
-
Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
And then what of orc mages? Orcs that are basically priests of their tribe? Where the hell do they get their chance to appear in all this? All this is really doing is limiting who can get into the special little club. It greatly limits what is possible, which takes away from the game more than it provides for it. It is not the job of some ingame group to determine who can play a god-damn mage well enough. That is mixing OOC and IC and is a huge contradiction to what the staff preaches about (I'll dig up proof if its needed)).Nalzaxx wrote:Not everyone can play a mage, or atleast well enough to do a good job of it. This is where the education and all the lessons around the actual teaching of magic come into their element. They make mages what they should be, learned and educated scholars, not ignorant carpenters that can throw fireballs around.
-
Dónal Mason
- Posts: 1115
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:46 pm
- Location: Don't feed the mogwai. After midnight, at least.
-
Shandariel el Lysanthrai
- Posts: 584
- Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:08 pm
- Location: Somewhere on Vanima
- Contact:
-
Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
Nop wrote:Priests are not mages. There will be a separate Priest system for them.
I fear your conspiracy theory does not apply.
What I said about mixing OOC with IC is related to the fact that this organization is being made to sound like it dictates who will be a mage based on how the teachers in the organization think the player will roleplay their prospective mage characters.
That only forces players to play a very specific role, with few deviances. It destroys much of the free-range of character quirks and qualities that make this game so much different from others. Why do I even bother anymore? I should just sit silently and let this game convert into some other loathsome pile of trash that no one wants to play. At least I'll lower my risk of carpal tunnel that way.Not everyone can play a mage, or atleast well enough to do a good job of it. This is where the education and all the lessons around the actual teaching of magic come into their element. They make mages what they should be, learned and educated scholars, not ignorant carpenters that can throw fireballs around.
-
Galim
- Posts: 1843
- Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Sitting and drinking at Irmoroms table
- Contact:
you haven't played it yet, you haven't tried it yet, but still you are complaining.That only forces players to play a very specific role, with few deviances. It destroys much of the free-range of character quirks and qualities that make this game so much different from others.
What you said there is wrong. the mages of the academy are so different that you won't believe it, but all are good played mages...at least the most of them. Their roleplay differs extremly. There are huge deviances.
And Cain, you already wrote years before that you don't like it how the game is now and what it becomes and that you would prefer to go. be nice...and GO than! but stop lurking around the forum and complain in a polemic way at everything from which you have no clue.
-
Damien
- Posts: 7845
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
- Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
- Contact:
These senseless complaints have, as far as i know, already pissed off a few developers several times, who just stopped investing time into illarion and did something else.
Several did move to an UO freeshard. There, such things are not discussed. The staff does it, says "this has changed", and that's it. I have visited it and i must say that it has a very good and dense roleplay atmosphere. They have no idiots ingame running around talking about skills or shouting OOC shit (those who would do that would simply get their account deleted immediately), and also no endless "this sucks" threads without much sense. There are no "discussions" with GMs - there is almost ALWAYS a GM around, commonly invisible. It has a very low frustration rate - but it's an UO system. Eew.
Several did move to an UO freeshard. There, such things are not discussed. The staff does it, says "this has changed", and that's it. I have visited it and i must say that it has a very good and dense roleplay atmosphere. They have no idiots ingame running around talking about skills or shouting OOC shit (those who would do that would simply get their account deleted immediately), and also no endless "this sucks" threads without much sense. There are no "discussions" with GMs - there is almost ALWAYS a GM around, commonly invisible. It has a very low frustration rate - but it's an UO system. Eew.
-
Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
I've been playing since long before most of those you see on the forums now.Arameh_ wrote:what?!that guy have 1600 posts and he didnt play?!
And Galim. I may say the same thing over the course of a long time (Not years, 1 year at most. The game was good to me for 2 years), but at least I don't change my views to suit that which is going to play into what the staff might want to hear. Not to mention, you are always one of the first people to yell about powergamers. Seems you and I both have our idiosyncrasies, so how about this idea: I'll stop as soon as you do.
-
Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
Well done in pointing out that what we are doing is two very different things, yet both apparently annoy the shit out of everyone. Then again, I don't really NEED to try out anything, when I talked to people all day today who have been dealing with the Academy thing. I've got a pretty good idea, without having to actually try it. I'd call it a lesson learned through teaching, rather than through experience. Anyway, let's keep it on topic, hm?
One doesn't need to know how to fly a spaceshuttle to complain about it if that person gathers information about how to fly it from many other astronauts who are displeased with how to fly it.
One doesn't need to know how to fly a spaceshuttle to complain about it if that person gathers information about how to fly it from many other astronauts who are displeased with how to fly it.
-
Damien
- Posts: 7845
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
- Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
- Contact:
Cain, try it out yourself. It's always easy to build an opinion by listening to those frustrated because they first didn't believe the staff on the boards (when the attributes were explained) and then find out that the staff did what hey said... 
You know, what really pisses me off in illarion lately, is the increasing amount of attracted idiots. Know what we have to deal with each day when doing accounts ? Let me give you a small citate : "LOL FUK I WANA PLY Y DO I DO TIS STUFF FUK U LEMME PLY NOW"...
...not to mention those fools writing porn related stuff in the story answer.
Oh and all those with "i wanna kill" in the first answer. Or "i wanna be the best and coolest and have my char be cool and pwn everyone"...
Gee, that just sucks. Can't these guys read.
You know, what really pisses me off in illarion lately, is the increasing amount of attracted idiots. Know what we have to deal with each day when doing accounts ? Let me give you a small citate : "LOL FUK I WANA PLY Y DO I DO TIS STUFF FUK U LEMME PLY NOW"...
...not to mention those fools writing porn related stuff in the story answer.
Oh and all those with "i wanna kill" in the first answer. Or "i wanna be the best and coolest and have my char be cool and pwn everyone"...
Gee, that just sucks. Can't these guys read.
-
Cain Freemont
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 8:54 pm
- Location: Oh, you know. Places.
I have no characters that would put up with such things as some organization basically hoarding all this power to themselves, only to distribute it to those they feel are worthy, nor will I create such a character simply because of this incredibly large change. I used to play this game because of its simple access to the features, that let you essentially reach whatever goal, play whatever role, and manifest whatever dream you could possibly think up. But this new system is the final blow against that freedom. The only character I even wish to play with anymore is Cain, and I can't even use him to any degree of his real potential because of this academy. All I can do now is roleplay him without any skills, with no graphical aid other than when I want him to walk around.. or die.
Cain is a mage, always has been since April of 2002. And if I have to conform my character (which has existed far longer in the pages of Illarion's history than this academy) then there's really no point in even bothering, because it will just make more holes in my character's very existence. There's no fucking point in trying anything out, when I already know the outcome and what kind of ramifications trying it out will have on my character. So, screw it. I'll just be roleplaying occasionally with a couple friends of mine and that's it. Hell, not like it'll be much of a change anyway, I've been doing that since Cain's entire plot and design was first bludgeoned to death from when magic was removed entirely.
Cain is a mage, always has been since April of 2002. And if I have to conform my character (which has existed far longer in the pages of Illarion's history than this academy) then there's really no point in even bothering, because it will just make more holes in my character's very existence. There's no fucking point in trying anything out, when I already know the outcome and what kind of ramifications trying it out will have on my character. So, screw it. I'll just be roleplaying occasionally with a couple friends of mine and that's it. Hell, not like it'll be much of a change anyway, I've been doing that since Cain's entire plot and design was first bludgeoned to death from when magic was removed entirely.
-
Damien
- Posts: 7845
- Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
- Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
- Contact:
LOL, why do you complain then ! Look at Damien. Do you know what fun it is running around with physical attributes at 5 to 6, when there is no magic ? Well i did my best and got along with it. It took quite a while i admit, but it was possible. And now when magic returns you don't jump right in. Why ?
Cain freemont's highest skill is at 24 : library research. His highest attributes are intelligence and perception. He has no other skills (well, a few, at max. 1). Looks like you never even TRIED to really play during times without magic.
You can easily delete this char and recreate it completely if you dislike your attributes, without loosing much at all ! Everyone can do that every time.
And then, you're complaining and screaming like hell... N00b !
I can promise you, no single academy lesson done by me will be boring, and everyone will be able to RP there. So - just give it a try.
Oh, and.. the new client... will be a reason for himself to play. Even without the load of dammn great things already running at the Test Server.
Well i did my best and got along with it. It took quite a while i admit, but it was possible. And now when magic returns you don't jump right in. Why ?Cain freemont's highest skill is at 24 : library research. His highest attributes are intelligence and perception. He has no other skills (well, a few, at max. 1). Looks like you never even TRIED to really play during times without magic.
You can easily delete this char and recreate it completely if you dislike your attributes, without loosing much at all ! Everyone can do that every time.
And then, you're complaining and screaming like hell... N00b !
I can promise you, no single academy lesson done by me will be boring, and everyone will be able to RP there. So - just give it a try.
Oh, and.. the new client... will be a reason for himself to play. Even without the load of dammn great things already running at the Test Server.