Why are testers here?Markous wrote:I have ignored public topics in the past, and will do it in the future.
Why are you here? O.oMarkous wrote: wasting our lifetime
Ponderings (yes more of them) about the Magic Academy
Moderator: Gamemasters
I do wonder why you ignore public topics, since often there are valid points mentioned in them, sometimes even in great detail, and you could post wether you agree or disagree. This somehow shows a lack of interest.Markous wrote:I have ignored public topics in the past, and will do it in the future. If there are any problems, PM or MSN me with some valid points, and I will consider things.
But not this way.
No one of you ever thinks about Nitram and me, who spend hours of hours, wasting our lifetime to script a working magic system, present it to you in a roleplay way, and trying to make a good background.
And no one ever attacked your scripting, and we are happy by the way you wish to introduce it, and the reasoning behind it (good roleplayers yes, bad roleplayers no), but there are a lot of complications with the way you wish to introduce it, because of the timezones. You could either get an American teacher even, which makes it easier to have lessons in an American timezone kind of way, or you could ease up on the attendance of lessons. Just a few suggestions, which still need to be worked out.
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Keikan Hiru
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Djironnyma
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hrmmmmm...... please think about one point....
The way to learning magic is hard, need much time, and cant gone alone, simpel with the game/the system. = We would have magic as a rare special ability, something that isnt for every one. Something waht have mystic, rumors and fantasy styl. If you wand to learn if you must learn much about the world of illarion, you must make roleplay and be than established step by step in magic.
or
The way to learn magic ist easy, fast and can go alone, simpel with the game /the system. = Nearly everyone how have the needed atributes will be abel to cast powerfull magic. It is like smithing or figthing, if you wand, learn it with clicking with the mouse some time around.
And now please thay me waht you really wand?
Aside from this, nobody says that we (the magic academy) have no start problems, it is the first time on that way. Nobody say that we are perfect and dont talk about the work we do, but than i think it is really a better way to speak with nitram or markous personally. BUT: For the beginning give us a chance! Give us some time to improve the new system really befor you wand to kill it.....
The way to learning magic is hard, need much time, and cant gone alone, simpel with the game/the system. = We would have magic as a rare special ability, something that isnt for every one. Something waht have mystic, rumors and fantasy styl. If you wand to learn if you must learn much about the world of illarion, you must make roleplay and be than established step by step in magic.
or
The way to learn magic ist easy, fast and can go alone, simpel with the game /the system. = Nearly everyone how have the needed atributes will be abel to cast powerfull magic. It is like smithing or figthing, if you wand, learn it with clicking with the mouse some time around.
And now please thay me waht you really wand?
Aside from this, nobody says that we (the magic academy) have no start problems, it is the first time on that way. Nobody say that we are perfect and dont talk about the work we do, but than i think it is really a better way to speak with nitram or markous personally. BUT: For the beginning give us a chance! Give us some time to improve the new system really befor you wand to kill it.....
Djironnyma makes a valid point, even if presented with wands alot. I agree we have to give 'em a chance before we all go charging with whines. But, with Markous, I do not agree that you ignore our valid points when we listen to yours. I know you spent alot on it and I am truely thankful for that but some of the ways means some can not learn magic, not because their attruthingies say so but because they don't have the time.
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Keikan Hiru
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There seems to be a missunderstanding, Djironnyma.
The point, or problem, is not that players aswell as thier characters are entiteled to learn something about thier gameworld.
Its that there are certain rules within the Magic Academy concept that render it impossible to successfuly complete the Acedemy for Players (or better siaid : thier character) who are going to work or to school.
Currently the problems named here are:
* unfitting times of lessons for most of the players
( its hard to have people from all over the world change thier daily routine after the free time of a forgein person)
* the need to visit at least two lessons
( hard, or next to impossible, when taking problen 1 into account)
I guess most if the problems will be solved when you take a more "University"-like aproach on this matter.
Its upon your students to decide of they are visiting the lessons or just studing your books (my prof's used to have written these books and sold them at ridiculous prices), all you care about is if they have to have the knowledge you are asking for at the (final) exams.
The point, or problem, is not that players aswell as thier characters are entiteled to learn something about thier gameworld.
Its that there are certain rules within the Magic Academy concept that render it impossible to successfuly complete the Acedemy for Players (or better siaid : thier character) who are going to work or to school.
Currently the problems named here are:
* unfitting times of lessons for most of the players
( its hard to have people from all over the world change thier daily routine after the free time of a forgein person)
* the need to visit at least two lessons
( hard, or next to impossible, when taking problen 1 into account)
I guess most if the problems will be solved when you take a more "University"-like aproach on this matter.
Its upon your students to decide of they are visiting the lessons or just studing your books (my prof's used to have written these books and sold them at ridiculous prices), all you care about is if they have to have the knowledge you are asking for at the (final) exams.
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Maliss
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Heiken said it all better reall major edit.
Dji I hope this post shows I feel the same way I don’t want it dead I am trying to explain my problems with it so it can grow better. I see and respect the need for such methods, simply the current ones are not working for myself.
Markous,
Please, if players are not in favor of the way the magic system is being implemented that does not mean we are ungrateful for your efforts. I look at this awesome magic system and you and Nitram are my heroes, it is amazing work truly and I think the whole community is hugely grateful to you and nitram for your time.
How ever surely everything that is done by devs and staff is done for the player’s fun and enjoyment and of course one can never please all the players. How ever most players are saying either they are not enjoying this or it’s nearly impossible to make all the classes.
The reason for classes so we don’t have “Spanky le mage” oh uber pwnzor fireball man….1337 my magic wrath etc.
I really think that’s valid how ever there could have been an initial test made, say write a essay on the nature of magic and those characters who understood magic and approached it in a manner that suited the game could have been taught ancient and given basic runes.
Or told to attend advanced classes that covered everything in 4-8 quick lessons been given basic runes and been given a more advanced paper to write or told to return when they had mastered basic spells.
How ever the criticism is not against your magic system and definitely not work and if it seems people are harsh, it is lightly there disappointment speaking. People have been waiting 6 months to play there magician some of them have been “pressing” through and playing them any way for all that time.
Now it feels like because of a few peoples sub par way of playing a mage we are all penalized.
Step into the players shoe’s a moment I have X hours to play Illarion a night that time is also lightly my free hours for a day. A magic class thus far aside from rune combinations sharing information any one should have read!
Now if you were a player do these classes seem like fun rp for you or work?
Even worse you cannot attend many of them due to RL.
At least I have made my feelings clear I think my previous post I was feeling a little grouchy
If you want to explore other options you know how to contact me, as really players and staff are in this game together and 90% of this community are talented players who love it nearly as much as you do and who can be trusted to work for the games best interest. So I suppose there opinions have some value…
I remain infinitely grateful for you for efforts as a dev and your influence on the game as a player, just because “we” dont like an idea doesn’t make it personal.
P.s alright I lied 65%?
Dji I hope this post shows I feel the same way I don’t want it dead I am trying to explain my problems with it so it can grow better. I see and respect the need for such methods, simply the current ones are not working for myself.
Markous,
Please, if players are not in favor of the way the magic system is being implemented that does not mean we are ungrateful for your efforts. I look at this awesome magic system and you and Nitram are my heroes, it is amazing work truly and I think the whole community is hugely grateful to you and nitram for your time.
How ever surely everything that is done by devs and staff is done for the player’s fun and enjoyment and of course one can never please all the players. How ever most players are saying either they are not enjoying this or it’s nearly impossible to make all the classes.
The reason for classes so we don’t have “Spanky le mage” oh uber pwnzor fireball man….1337 my magic wrath etc.
I really think that’s valid how ever there could have been an initial test made, say write a essay on the nature of magic and those characters who understood magic and approached it in a manner that suited the game could have been taught ancient and given basic runes.
Or told to attend advanced classes that covered everything in 4-8 quick lessons been given basic runes and been given a more advanced paper to write or told to return when they had mastered basic spells.
How ever the criticism is not against your magic system and definitely not work and if it seems people are harsh, it is lightly there disappointment speaking. People have been waiting 6 months to play there magician some of them have been “pressing” through and playing them any way for all that time.
Now it feels like because of a few peoples sub par way of playing a mage we are all penalized.
Step into the players shoe’s a moment I have X hours to play Illarion a night that time is also lightly my free hours for a day. A magic class thus far aside from rune combinations sharing information any one should have read!
Now if you were a player do these classes seem like fun rp for you or work?
Even worse you cannot attend many of them due to RL.
At least I have made my feelings clear I think my previous post I was feeling a little grouchy
If you want to explore other options you know how to contact me, as really players and staff are in this game together and 90% of this community are talented players who love it nearly as much as you do and who can be trusted to work for the games best interest. So I suppose there opinions have some value…
I remain infinitely grateful for you for efforts as a dev and your influence on the game as a player, just because “we” dont like an idea doesn’t make it personal.
P.s alright I lied 65%?
I have changed the academy a bit. You do not need to attend any lessons to take the test (Reading notes is enough), and you do not get admonishments for not attending.
Next time PM me, or discuss it with me on MSN (nartak_ironmaster@hotmail.com), for I dislike this public bashing.
Everybody pleased? Now let's get back to RPing.
Next time PM me, or discuss it with me on MSN (nartak_ironmaster@hotmail.com), for I dislike this public bashing.
Everybody pleased? Now let's get back to RPing.
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Keikan Hiru
- Posts: 3482
- Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:46 pm
Heiken says: (;))
I fail to see the "public bashing" here, only a little stray into the far-offtopic-ness.
Put up some quotes if you please, and I quote the praise you just recived here.
I still think the boards is the way to talk about problems with this great pioneer work.
Since it affects many players, thier characters and thier roleplay you should not listen to single one's in a private conversation.
Everyone should have the chance to have thier say when a topic like this one is brought up.
Especialy when its "just" something elementary like remembering every involved person that our players do not have unlimited and freely aviable time at thier hands.
We just can't chain them at thier PC desks and expect them to be ready and aviable when we are.
This is no matter of scripting things, where the involved scripter can thoss arround with calculations and numbers on the Dev-Boards or in chats and the averange player will not show much intress at all, this is about a mayor RP-thing, and, at the end of a day, we want to get back to RPing.
I fail to see the "public bashing" here, only a little stray into the far-offtopic-ness.
Put up some quotes if you please, and I quote the praise you just recived here.
I still think the boards is the way to talk about problems with this great pioneer work.
Since it affects many players, thier characters and thier roleplay you should not listen to single one's in a private conversation.
Everyone should have the chance to have thier say when a topic like this one is brought up.
Especialy when its "just" something elementary like remembering every involved person that our players do not have unlimited and freely aviable time at thier hands.
We just can't chain them at thier PC desks and expect them to be ready and aviable when we are.
This is no matter of scripting things, where the involved scripter can thoss arround with calculations and numbers on the Dev-Boards or in chats and the averange player will not show much intress at all, this is about a mayor RP-thing, and, at the end of a day, we want to get back to RPing.
one of my main problems is that the arch mages are the biggest assholes you'll ever meet. They break town laws nonstop, and their ego is beyond belief. Its really annoying to see what you would think would be a wise and humble person actually be a goddam prick who is trigger happy with their invinvible magic.
I thought this was to teach players magic, not to show how invulnerable some GM powered players are, so they can insult absolutely everyone on the island, and act like they're the kings of the world.
they expect you to call them master when your not even part of their academy. What reason do regular people have to call them master, when they come to town, break town laws, kill people, and then insult them. These people should be wise, but they are being played like thugs.
I thought this was to teach players magic, not to show how invulnerable some GM powered players are, so they can insult absolutely everyone on the island, and act like they're the kings of the world.
they expect you to call them master when your not even part of their academy. What reason do regular people have to call them master, when they come to town, break town laws, kill people, and then insult them. These people should be wise, but they are being played like thugs.
Last edited by Salathe on Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Farel Leonsepth
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Garett Gwenour
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Kevin Lightdot
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Just like RL teachers. Always sucking up when your parantes come by and when they're not there they start yelling at you and make you write essays (Thank god we fixed thatSalathe wrote:one of my main problems is that the arch mages are the biggest assholes you'll ever meet. They break town laws nonstop, and their ego is beyond belief. Its really annoying to see what you would think would be a wise and humble person actually be a goddam prick who is trigger happy with their invinvible magic.
I thought this was to teach players magic, not to show how invulnerable some GM powered players are, so they can insult absolutely everyone on the island, and act like they're the kings of the world.
they expect you to call them master when your not even part of their academy. What reason do regular people have to call them master, when they come to town, break town laws, kill people, and then insult them. These people should be wise, but they are being played like thugs.
) About god knows what for god knows what.PS: No personal insult meant
The way to say it would be. My char hates your char but your char can burn me to a crisp so...
same could be said for your character when they're was only the fighting system Sal. Sal was pushy stuck up and arrogant, and attempted in many situations to intimidate people to get his way.
admittedly being trashed by the archmages isn't the nice way to go. but in the case of Stephen, direct frontal attack, by yourself against someone who has previsouly demonstrated his ability to make human candles. probably not the brightest idea. if you want to fight an archmage i still dont' see why none of the warriors do it the smart way. in a group, instead all the would be strong guys come one at a time and expect to win. not gonna happen.
p.s. lets not get to far off topic
admittedly being trashed by the archmages isn't the nice way to go. but in the case of Stephen, direct frontal attack, by yourself against someone who has previsouly demonstrated his ability to make human candles. probably not the brightest idea. if you want to fight an archmage i still dont' see why none of the warriors do it the smart way. in a group, instead all the would be strong guys come one at a time and expect to win. not gonna happen.
p.s. lets not get to far off topic
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amorax_kaka
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---
My suggestion:
Have soemthing that helps you learn runes, rune lore... which shades off runes which do not work for that particular combination.
Otherwise, you should make all runes follow the same umm syntax.
Such as
1) rune for element
2) Rune for strenght
3) ect..ect...ect...
so you choose your combination, and if you fail; you get something umm.. bad on the target
My suggestion:
Have soemthing that helps you learn runes, rune lore... which shades off runes which do not work for that particular combination.
Otherwise, you should make all runes follow the same umm syntax.
Such as
1) rune for element
2) Rune for strenght
3) ect..ect...ect...
so you choose your combination, and if you fail; you get something umm.. bad on the target
I have no idea what you mean, and the latter part even seems rather irrelevant to the topic at hand.Hadrian_Abela wrote:---
My suggestion:
Have soemthing that helps you learn runes, rune lore... which shades off runes which do not work for that particular combination.
Otherwise, you should make all runes follow the same umm syntax.
Such as
1) rune for element
2) Rune for strenght
3) ect..ect...ect...
so you choose your combination, and if you fail; you get something umm.. bad on the target
To make one thing clear: I like the idea of the magic academy and I still think this idea beats any other way of re-introducing the magic. Some things had to be worked on and are bing worked on.
There's just one thing that is getting frustrating for me about it: The re-introduction of magic is taking a very long time. If I understood the plans, there are supposed to be 5-10 classes. It has been 3 weeks since the technological base was made available. A few topics have seen the second lecture, most have had/are still waiting for the first. Doing some calculations that gives you 15-30 weeks until the last lectures of the novice courses. Then you're likely to see the first runes and start with the adept courses of unknown duration. This could mean keeping players away from any practical use of the new runes for half a year or more.
While I don't want to just throw the runes at people, I'd appreciate it if the planners at the magic academy could find a believable way that allows players to start actually playing with magic in a shorter time, maybe more like a month. Maybe some intermediate steps like classes that include a few basic spells or several levels/schools of adepts with access to different runes.
There's just one thing that is getting frustrating for me about it: The re-introduction of magic is taking a very long time. If I understood the plans, there are supposed to be 5-10 classes. It has been 3 weeks since the technological base was made available. A few topics have seen the second lecture, most have had/are still waiting for the first. Doing some calculations that gives you 15-30 weeks until the last lectures of the novice courses. Then you're likely to see the first runes and start with the adept courses of unknown duration. This could mean keeping players away from any practical use of the new runes for half a year or more.
While I don't want to just throw the runes at people, I'd appreciate it if the planners at the magic academy could find a believable way that allows players to start actually playing with magic in a shorter time, maybe more like a month. Maybe some intermediate steps like classes that include a few basic spells or several levels/schools of adepts with access to different runes.
Well, the sheep-bomber Tyrus has left the island for good it seems, and his usage of magic, actually even contradictive to his own rules, caused the most disturbance and bad voices about the academy IMHO.
Things can only get better now.
Every further comment on this topic would only be a paraphrase of what Nop has just mentioned above my post, so I'll spare you with any more words besides, I agree with Nop about the time thing totally.
Things can only get better now.
Every further comment on this topic would only be a paraphrase of what Nop has just mentioned above my post, so I'll spare you with any more words besides, I agree with Nop about the time thing totally.
Personally I love the academy, and have already taken my chance to thank Markous directly for it, though the attending of a set number of lessons and admonishments was a little harsh perhaps due to extenuating OOC reasons. You must understand it was coming from a positive viewpoint, the mages were trying to make life in the academy more realistic and more like attending a real academy, not so they could piss you all off and ruin your chances of "ever learning magic"
Nop perhaps has a point about the classes being rather numerous and lengthy, but if the classes were more compact and closer together, firstly you wouldn't learn so much, and secondly you are likely to miss more lessons. I think the wide variety of topics available and the depth they go into is purely fantastic, my mage really feels like he knows something.
If I am to pick a bone it would be how clumped the syllabus appears to be, with virtually everything being at novice stage. I think if the classes were spread accordingly across the different levels it would provide magic to people in a much more rapid manner, yet still allow those who wish to continue to really feel the benefits of being a knowledgable mage.
For example, the current syllabus is as thus AKAIK:
Novice
- Ancient Language
- Artefact Lore
- Creature Lore
- Etiquette
- History / Gods
- Theoretical Magic
- Alchemy
- Philosophy
- Rune Lore
Adept
- Practical Magic
Magister
Archmage
Perhaps the fact that no-one is actually a higher rank yet prevents me from seeing the true picture, but if the topics were split, and arranged according to either their presteige (such as getting runes) or academy difficulty (a philosophy thesis is harder than notes on pigs) to create each rank being in effect a state of education.
For example, based on english qualifications
Novice (GCSE) The basic academics of being a mage and preparation.
- Artefact Lore
- Creature Lore
- Etiquette
- History / Gods
- Meditation
Adept (A Level) Learning about actual magical practices and use.
- Ancient Language
- Theoretical Magic (basics)
- Alchemy
- Divination
- Rune Lore
Magister (Uni Degree) Actual use of magic aswell as advanced academics
- Practical Magic
- Philosophy
- Enchantment
- Theoretical Magic (advanced)
- Pathworking (internal development like ESP and Telekinesis)
Archmage (Uni Doctorate) Furthering our understanding of magic
- Practical Magic
- Pathworking
- Ceremonial Magic
- Experimental/Research
I think this kind of format would spread the load a little, so that you felt you were getting somewhere, those who want their hands on the runes and then to leave the academy can do, and those who want to continue with the academy can get a fuller sense of being a mage.
Just my 2 cents...
*puts on fireproof clothing*
Ok Im ready.
Nop perhaps has a point about the classes being rather numerous and lengthy, but if the classes were more compact and closer together, firstly you wouldn't learn so much, and secondly you are likely to miss more lessons. I think the wide variety of topics available and the depth they go into is purely fantastic, my mage really feels like he knows something.
If I am to pick a bone it would be how clumped the syllabus appears to be, with virtually everything being at novice stage. I think if the classes were spread accordingly across the different levels it would provide magic to people in a much more rapid manner, yet still allow those who wish to continue to really feel the benefits of being a knowledgable mage.
For example, the current syllabus is as thus AKAIK:
Novice
- Ancient Language
- Artefact Lore
- Creature Lore
- Etiquette
- History / Gods
- Theoretical Magic
- Alchemy
- Philosophy
- Rune Lore
Adept
- Practical Magic
Magister
Archmage
Perhaps the fact that no-one is actually a higher rank yet prevents me from seeing the true picture, but if the topics were split, and arranged according to either their presteige (such as getting runes) or academy difficulty (a philosophy thesis is harder than notes on pigs) to create each rank being in effect a state of education.
For example, based on english qualifications
Novice (GCSE) The basic academics of being a mage and preparation.
- Artefact Lore
- Creature Lore
- Etiquette
- History / Gods
- Meditation
Adept (A Level) Learning about actual magical practices and use.
- Ancient Language
- Theoretical Magic (basics)
- Alchemy
- Divination
- Rune Lore
Magister (Uni Degree) Actual use of magic aswell as advanced academics
- Practical Magic
- Philosophy
- Enchantment
- Theoretical Magic (advanced)
- Pathworking (internal development like ESP and Telekinesis)
Archmage (Uni Doctorate) Furthering our understanding of magic
- Practical Magic
- Pathworking
- Ceremonial Magic
- Experimental/Research
I think this kind of format would spread the load a little, so that you felt you were getting somewhere, those who want their hands on the runes and then to leave the academy can do, and those who want to continue with the academy can get a fuller sense of being a mage.
Just my 2 cents...
*puts on fireproof clothing*
Ok Im ready.