Question - buildings

[martin]

Okay, well, since it seems that what I said was not understood clearly, I saw urgent need to change that. Therefore I nearly spent 12 hours now to work out a detailed plan for Troll's Bane. It was a strainous work and to be honest, it needed a lot of brain power, as well as artistic talent to make detailed drafts for the layout. I ended up drawing a blueprint which covers almost every imaginable detail of future Troll's Bane, including, well, everything.
While I think that almost noone will understand it totally, it is still my humble wish to share my wisdom and creativity with you. You may print it out and study it in the next month:

http://www.illarion.org/~martin/tb.gif

I hope that's what you're all thinking about.

Martin

[Quinasa]

Be humbled. All of you.

[Pendar]

Umm but Martin the druids play ground is sort of to the south east and not really in Trollsbane. I am not sure if my draftsman ship skills actually compare to yours how ever i could attempt to replicate this stunning work with a few minor corrections.
I am also shocked no, no appalled i do not see my torture chamber or slave pits.

In closing the giant mortar will be filled with mud and fooser and I shall mud wrestle for complete ownership of the island.
we shall call it the super bowl, cause I’m original that way.

I actually haven’t read this topic and will stop spamming it now
Brian

[Fooser]

Fooser already owns the island, duh

[AlaineMilan]

martin, I think this idea is great

[Salesh Ssshak'rr]

(( sorry... have to do it ))

A raven sits at the edge of the mortar watching the wrestling and caws a noise that can only be understood as laughter... it knows who really owns the island

[Gwynnether]

Okay. I see.

I don't get answers on my questions and I do not feel treated fair.

You can close this topic if you wish. That was it for me.


- Jen

[Japheth]

I was informed that at the rl meeting it was decided that buildings should be smaller. The size given me is 10x10. For most buildings this is reasonable, but, yes, for some pre-existing player-owned buildings a lot of detail goes out the window because their designs were previously so intricate.

As for the hospital, it will be a hospital again on the next map. Until then, the GM's can work on it on the server.

This is why I replied to your saying that you were going to post something about this by saying "tssss. meddling." We could solve a lot of these problems by just talking between the two of us.

Buildings like the old shop and the working house were waste of space at the old server and at the new too. I believe the plan for the future is, that there are more little houses (2-3 shops and 2-3 workhouses) than only 2 big ones.



Apropos, Why do you notice the changes now? The "small" versions exist since more than 6 months.

Remember, please kindly, that you're dealing with a human being who is dealing with more tiles than there are players of this game, one at a time

Excuse me, but I am no omipotent person that is aware of every little detail of the old map.

Cut this out finaly, I am sick of this.

You got several answers to your questions. You just didn't get the answer that you wanted to hear. This game isn't dictated on what one player wants. We try to make a game that will go away from this area of a closed and small community. We're trying to expand.

Here is my opinion on why the Druid House was made smaller on the new map. Around the time of the new map's creation and introduction, that guild had become inactive and because of this, the building size was decreased. The same happened in Greenbriar, the same happened everywhere else. The Long Monastery was removed because it was a pointless relic, as were some other places.

And finally-Aegohl is currently working on an improvement to the Druid House.

[Nitram]

Another question is: Why did the druid need such a huge house? Are they really so many and so often in this house, that this is needed? Wouldn't a smaller building have enougth space for the druids?

[Aristeaus]

Ill post a larger reply later but to Nitram.

The area about the druid house is barran and holds nothing, i see no reason why it could not be expanded, if it were in a tight enclosure i could understand the arguement against it.

To counter your agruement.

Before this quest how many players and how much space was used up within the Grey Rose castle, which to my knowledge was the newest entitiy upon the isle, but somehow the largest, whereas many other structures with much more history have suffered.

Perhaps is it that the mapteam consist of the greyrose and are willing to spend the time upon it?

And if so, im certain people from the various other areas would be happy to contribute into thier building.

I point no fingers just write known facts.

[Nitram]

but:

bigger house --> larger map --> more work --> more time needed

and if we don't have one thing...then time.

[Aristeaus]

but:

bigger house --> larger map --> more work --> more time needed

and if we don't have one thing...then time.

Aha but before the new server it was

Bigger house -- Smaller map - Manageable

[Keikan Hiru]

[...]
Perhaps is it that the mapteam consist of the greyrose and are willing to spend the time upon it?
[...]

You should check your "facts" more, much more.

I am no member of the Grey Rose.
Aegohl is no member of the Grey Rose.
Ceigan is no member of the Grey Rose.
Pendar is no member of the Grey Rose.

...

only Lennier is member of the Grey Rose.


The "newest" constructions, to my knowledge, are Tol Vanima and Varshikar.

Drop these stupid comments and assumtions, they will neither support you nor bring you any further.

[Aristeaus]

*Yank's hard on the fishing rod*

' Hey Pa, i got me a bite '

Well back to the matter. Ok you have me! Hands up, Lennier is the only member of the mapteam within the greyrose. So from curiousity, why was the rose castle the single building upon the isle which increased in size *My thoughts only, not prooven or probably correct* where all else diminished.

p.s Varshikar was your northerot Keikan, ill gladly call it thus in this debate if it would make matters easier.

[Jacob]

Its my deeply a-hole opinion that the grey rose castle is such a vast castle because the GMs and their old ooc friends wish to keep it and it's subsequent knighthood relevant in the illarion game. Hence nearly every quest involves the castle as the haven, hence the castle is no enormous. Prior to the quest there was only a handful of players who played in the grey rose. Now of course it is relevant again because the GMs coordinate an unstoppable attack on the town that of course forced people to go to the castle.
I see no reason why the house of druids is so small. Is this not a game ? Is it not just some random tiles that can be fitted to be larger. What does it hurt to enlarge the house ? The house of druids is in the middle of no where and so it does not hurt to have it much larger then those huts in Varshikar.
Mmh to hit more on the old illarion trying to stay relevant to the new illarion, I have noticed the Bloodskull cave is much thinner and smaller then in the old client, and yet Silverbrand is much much larger then the last. Why would you do this, there are maybe .. 4 active dwarves, (Active being logging on maybe twice a week), that play IN silverbrand, so why must it be so vast ?

Unanswered questions in this post that will likely just be answered with a witty single line comment from Martin or Keikan.

[Keikan Hiru]

You should feel honored that I am really replying to the crap you have presented there, Jacob.

By the way, I am not only the most powerful and corruptest person here, helping my OOC friends all the time and giving them a huge edge about the lower-class Illarion players (which I consider everyone else beside me), I am also accepting Master Card and Visa Card.
And, if you are asking nicely, I'll aswell open the possibility to bribe me via PayPal.
Thats the only way to get a 11x11 sized house.

Lets put aside that baseless rant you made about the GMs.

We'll start with Silverbrand:
Silverbrand lost some tiles, because due to a technical restriction during the re-creation I put every of the old Silverbrand maps into a new one (acutaly I copied them by hand, not automaticly), which caused Silverbrand to become flat and not mulit-leveled as it once was.
After I was finished, I added a mine (unfortunatly unfunctional because of missing scripts to that time), like I did to many other spots as well (and which was payed since ages).
They gained NOTHING.
And god knows how my grey hairs I caused on Estralis head when I constantly refused to overhaul the complete map for nothing.

Lets switch to Tol Vanima:
Nobody of you complained about this map. Its HUGE compared to your tiny huts ... still no complains. Why ?

Varshikar:
If my memory does not totaly fail me, during the drough, when I build the first version of the Northerot Castle on the ruins of the Mana-Well there was already the Grey Rose keep.
Am I wrong ?

The druid house:
Will most likely get resized as every other building.
Why ? Because its fair.
If we don't, we'll again create a special case where everboy and his dog is coming to us:
"The Druids house has been enlarged and ours not. I demand justice!"

Unanswered questions in this post that will likely just be answered with a witty single line comment from Martin or Keikan.

Exactly, but I have my nice day, today.

Best I start ignoring this, you all make me angry and sick with your jealousy about tiles and pixels.

[Lennier]

why was the rose castle the single building upon the isle which increased in size

It`s decreased too. You can believe us or not, but its decreased like all other buildings... (about 100 fields about all floors)

I have to make a list now what parts of the isle i made and ask you, if you agree with them? *grumbles*

Fine:

- They Grey Refuge (inclusive shrine)
- The Skull Cave
- The whole northern woods (inclusive Ushara Shrine)
- The whole northern meadows
- An new version of skeleton harolds cave
- A one-level secret dungeon for the next map

And currently i spent some time irregulary for a real newbie island.


I also gave important ideas for the next druid system. Maybe i should stop to play a druid now myself, because i am a player of the Grey Rose (the general arguemant here about all the time since i know Illarion) and that i could have advantages in my knowledge?

Yes i have advantages, but all who knows me, should know, that i devide my knowledge with other players and teach their chars.


6 Weeks ago i was asked to become a GM. I did not agree because of trouble like this now (it only was one arguement against it) .

I do not want this damn shit of the general corruption-thing in each corner of illarion. You should know me about the long time of 4 years i play with you!

Only one good thing: The overground of the next map is made by onle 1 person. And no, it is noone of the Grey Rose...

[Fooser]

Yeah, I recall when the GR castle made up about 20% of the island on the smaller map

[Thalodos Artemetus]

Lol, does anyone realise how silly this is? It a virtual building, it doesn't really matter how big or small they are. Please guys grow up.

The druid building and the castle are reasonable sizes, there is no need to complain.

End of. *says something homophobic/sexist/Racist etc.. to get the topic closed*

[Pendar]

Edit: Thalos where as for some reason size has come into the equation now for reasons beyond me, I think the original point was the removal of two locations steeped in rp history.

I have avoided this topic as it really is not something I have to much vested interest in.
I also lost touch with it when it moved into German,
What i gather though is that the druid house lost some tiles and more importantly locations which were intended to be replaced?
The locations being the tree atop which had rp history and what was the beautiful tomb below.
I was under the understanding this was going to be replaced in time.
I in fact witnessed an attempt to reconstruct it happen in game again pointing to the fact that it would be restored.

So a future map update will include the two missing locations? How ever small, if so no problem.

Moving on to the grey rose we need to remember that the rose is more than just a large castle with a great history. It also makes the base for German players to play from and yes we still have players who are not at ease in English. A huge change from a game that was once mostly German. So I am really in favor of them having an impressive presence they are some of our finest and lately most active players. If this game went back to 70% German I am sure us English players who love it would like a space we could call home.

In closing updating the map is not as simple as people may think, sure its not brain surgery but currently not something just don’t on the fly. Perhaps in the future the map will be easier to alter and we can create and destroy daily.
Brian

[Dónal Mason]

Sadly, this is a topic we, the lowly players, cannot discuss because the great and infallible Keikan has spoken on the matter! Let us all bow to the (former) GMs will!

[Thalodos Artemetus]

Hail mighty Keikan.. *bows*

[Pendar]

Donal that sort of commentary really derails a discussion one i have just become active in
Where as I find your brand of sarcasim mostly ammusing I dont really think any one deserves it for building 70% of a huge map alone. That fact alone becomes a large explination for over sights in its reconstruction.
Brian

[Dónal Mason]

The current map sucks. It's a plain, boring trudge from town to town. Travel is boring, and because of that I feel he failed. Oh wow, it's a green field almost exactly the same as the other green fields I came through. Wow, a TREE! And now there's mountains! Yay, instead of green fields we have grey ones!

[Fooser]

And it's a little too big, to the point of pointlessness

[Devrah Liioness]

I'm with Donal and Jen, respectively.

There is *too much* open space. Why can't the Druid House be a few tiles larger? It's not like the endless fields are sparse >_>

Seriously, I am very dispappointed in the way Jen's been treated in this. That map with "Druid's playground" was simply rude, snide, and uncalled for. All she wants is the building she paid for, in land that the druids RP in constantly, with hardly anyone else in that area to need that land and imho, it's simply unfair that it's being cut yet again. The castle is way too damn big; even with *everyone* in it, they only use up the space of one room, and each room is gargantuous. For its use and population, Tol Vanima is also too big; so why is the druid house, with the playerbase of those two buildings combined, about 1/20 the size?

Jen paid for the building; let her help design it.

PS: And thanks to this whole debaucle, we've lost, at least temporarily, one of our best players. There was no need to be so rude to her that you drover her away about this.

And Keikan, you're just being a jerk, the way you're firing at everyone for voicing opinions that aren't yours.

[Japheth]

That map with "Druid's playground" was simply rude, snide, and uncalled for.

But funny. Really, if somebody can be insulted by a little drawing that illustrates the circular and pointless argument in a topic that is fast going nowhere, then they need to get thicker skin. Jen put herself in the position for harsh criticism when she asked for something that only benefits herself and possible five other active players.

If we're granting super precise favours such as specific missing trees (wtf?) can I please have Viola Thistle's grave added to the map. And the stone where Brendan Mason once fell asleep? And that bush that Brendan once peed and isn't present any more.

Enough! This topic has been going around in circles and has now resulted in sarcastic and pointless comments.

Aegohl, the current head of the map team already answered the main question on page one.

-Topic Closed-

[Japheth]

No point in more than one topic. Spam and insults to a minimum. Of course, asking that of the Illarion community is like asking the sky not to be blue.

I see no reason for this topic to be closed, its a discussion and views of numerous players.

If you dont wish views to be made, state so and they shall cease, but until then they should be heard.

Not all views are complimentary, but at times bad views create more than good.

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Devrah wrote:
That map with "Druid's playground" was simply rude, snide, and uncalled for.


But funny. Really, if somebody can be insulted by a little drawing that illustrates the circular and pointless argument in a topic that is fast going nowhere, then they need to get thicker skin. Jen put herself in the position for harsh criticism when she asked for something that only benefits herself and possible five other active players.

If we're granting super precise favours such as specific missing trees (wtf?) can I please have Viola Thistle's grave added to the map. And the stone where Brendan Mason once fell asleep? And that bush that Brendan once peed and isn't present any more.

Enough! This topic has been going around in circles and has now resulted in sarcastic and pointless comments.

Aegohl, the current head of the map team already answered the main question on page one.



I dont see this as a topic asking for something which is nothing, i view this topic as a criticism from a player, which may aid the developers in the future.

Of course the druid house may receive nothing from this and i dont say it should, but it is a criticism on behalf of the community who wonder what they can take hold of and work towards.

To expound further on this matter what we have all lost sight off is that the migration to the new server and as such client. Was a needed move not a planned one many things were unfinished such as the map actually, how ever it was the unfinished product that allowed us to take advantage of many new graphics and features we all seem to be enjoying. I personally don’t agree with 10x10 either as I find the tavern very crowded when we have more than 5 people in it. How ever I don’t view building size as the issue and neither did any one in the previous post they simply wished to know why 10x10 was agreed upon. So for me issue was actually dead the important aspects of the druid house will be restored in an update and the staff in there wisdom have decided on 10x10. Not being fluent in German I cannot know what went on after that how ever I can’t imagine it deserved the flippant response the topic ended on. The map is meant to please the players so we should be looking at how best to do that?

Below the is my response I wrote upon seeing the thread locked in such a manner I urge any one not interested to skip it pertains only loosely to the map issue.

Quote:
If we're granting super precise favors such as specific missing trees (wtf?) can I please have Viola Thistle's grave added to the map. And the stone where Brendan Mason once fell asleep? And that bush that Brendan once peed and isn't present any more.



Well in theory why ever not there was a large topic about suggestions for the map you should have made some of those. Surely the goal of the map is to capture and take the players interests and cater to there wishes. So if such are yours, maybe they can still be included.

I am not sure where GM and talking down to players becomes synonymous? As that is what you did...
Not just Jen but any one else who had given due consideration to the topic.
Also in essence your implication is that it is in-correct to wish to have consistent rp on the map, shall we move Trollsbane and greenbriar around for a joke?
The tree was to my understanding to the druids what the malachine shrine is to the grey rose. But eh we wouldn’t miss that either?

What’s my actual point I don’t believe the tree was removed maliciously I don’t believe the druid house was down sized with intent to spoil any ones fun, but way to make it an issue.
In most online games free or other wise it falls to the staff to attempt to accommodate players. As such perhaps an apology and we will do our best to address the issue in a future map update would have sufficed.
Lock the topic sure, but neener it’s locked you cannot respond to my rather demeaning reply to your concern and apparent displeasure is cheap.

Any service position in Illarion is just that the role of it is not create what pleases one personally or promote ones own wishes on the game. It is a decision I value this game highly enough to wish to put something back in service of the players.

How would I have locked that topic…?
This discussion is going in circles that staff has decided that 10x10 is a good size for buildings. Apologies to those players dissatisfied with the druid house as stated on page one it is being redone in upcoming update. I am sure you can contact the map team via PM with any other concerns you may have.

Simply as I would like to believe my wishes are important to the staff, for the most part and those members I know it is exactly that way. Actually including Japeth whom I seem to have picked on in this post, as he locked the one I was hammering on.

Now we all of us remain grateful to every one who has raised a finger past and present to help build a fantastic game, the accusations of favoritism or advantages never really entered my mind. More over I wouldn’t care how ever the response to player dissatisfaction should not be defense. It also should not fall to a level of being condescending to the player or players concerned.
Brian

Edit: P.s for what it matters I spent hour’s rping in the old druid house and you know why it was an attractive setting. With a garden and "magic" tree it had a large library etc. I don’t think size is any issue in relation to aesthetics’. I would envisage a druid house with a garden around it where some herbs grew perhaps a small forest of glade behind it etc

Last edited by Pendar on Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total

I dont really want to take part in this discussion, because I spoke with Aegohl about the druid house earlier. But keikan made me really angry. it seems that some of the devs just cant stand criticism, and I cannot understand this.

Hey, you guys made a really huge map and I couldnt see the point of such a huge map. I still hate those long travels. And then there is only place for 10x10? Why? Why not enlarge them together with the map or just give them the size they had before? What is so wrong about this? And how are we supposed to RP this? "We got robbed, they spoke magic on it and *whom* the house become smaller" ???

And I really miss the old Trollsbane. The small river directly in front of the shop =) and the hospital of course. I don't know exactly what the druidhouse looked like before so I can't complain about it but I can understand Jen's feeling because she paid for everything.

So my question: What do you loose with enlarging the building again? Fields? Stones? Forest?

Comments noted and taken aboard.

[Aegohl]

Its my deeply a-hole opinion that the grey rose castle is such a vast castle because the GMs and their old ooc friends wish to keep it and it's subsequent knighthood relevant in the illarion game. Hence nearly every quest involves the castle as the haven, hence the castle is no enormous. Prior to the quest there was only a handful of players who played in the grey rose. Now of course it is relevant again because the GMs coordinate an unstoppable attack on the town that of course forced people to go to the castle.
I see no reason why the house of druids is so small. Is this not a game ? Is it not just some random tiles that can be fitted to be larger. What does it hurt to enlarge the house ? The house of druids is in the middle of no where and so it does not hurt to have it much larger then those huts in Varshikar.
Mmh to hit more on the old illarion trying to stay relevant to the new illarion, I have noticed the Bloodskull cave is much thinner and smaller then in the old client, and yet Silverbrand is much much larger then the last. Why would you do this, there are maybe .. 4 active dwarves, (Active being logging on maybe twice a week), that play IN silverbrand, so why must it be so vast ?

Unanswered questions in this post that will likely just be answered with a witty single line comment from Martin or Keikan.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! *cough* *cough* Hahahahahah! HAHAHAH!! Grunty....

Anyways, for the record, Jen said she was leaving before Martin's posts. The fact remains that apparently I was the one who offended her, because I was the only one who really replied at that point.

Jen paid for the building and thus gets a right to design it? That's funny, because she didn't come to me with anything that I didn't already plan for the building. She wanted the garden room, the tree (impossible. No one player group gets their own special tree. The only reason they got this is because the tree was not yet implemented fully. On top of this, the graphic is no longer existant. Goodbye), and the grave. I assured her they'd all be there, and I also mentioned my expansions of the druid house.

However, she doesn't own the building anymore. Earlier the same day I was asking for input from PO Alysha. We came up with some nice things together and she told me she liked that design better and I told her that I'm still working on it and I'd keep in contact with her.

Jen, more than any other player, has unfettered access to me, and even that day was talking to me. She, however, instead wanted to bring the argument to the boards, and really not a single useful thing has come out of it but demotivation for the map team.

You think Keikan's map is ugly? Well, I'll admit that I do things very differently; it can be said that I don't "like" the current map. However, it can also be said that I respect the work put into it, because I know what kind of work that is. I dig into it every day, and it sometimes takes a long time to make a breakthrough. With buildings like the druid house, I go through several different ways of doing it, over several days.

I work a full time job breaking my back for an asshole boss, and then I come home to work a full time job breaking my back for what amounts to mostly genuinely decent people--most of the time.

Comments like some of the above aren't welcome, frankly. Donal, you want the job? I'm sure you'd be so much more talented than Keikan, Lennier, and Josefine. You seem like the type of motivated individual who uses his time creatively.

I have to say that I've lost respect for some of you today. Input is always welcome. "The current map is ugly" is not helpful. "I want this right now this very moment!" also not welcome.

The hospital has a bed now. You guys made it. Sleep in it.

[Aegohl]

Actually, I'll take a stab at this now that I'm done laughing.

Its my deeply a-hole opinion that the grey rose castle is such a vast castle because the GMs and their old ooc friends wish to keep it and it's subsequent knighthood relevant in the illarion game. Hence nearly every quest involves the castle as the haven, hence the castle is no enormous. Prior to the quest there was only a handful of players who played in the grey rose. Now of course it is relevant again because the GMs coordinate an unstoppable attack on the town that of course forced people to go to the castle.

The current ratio of Grey Rose (if we were to count all those who have a Gamemaster tag, Gamemaster character, and have been active at all in the past year) is 1 Grey Rose GM to 5 non-Grey Rose.

The amount of GM's involved in any which way with the editing of the map at all is an amazing 0.

The ratio of map editors with Grey Rose affiliation including all those who were ever on the staff are 2 against 4. Of all members who were ever on the map team, 4 out of 6 were involved with Varshikar/Northerot. Apparently we're more corruptly biased towards Varshikar/Northerot. On the other hand 6 out of 6 have had characters who were involved with Trollsbane!!! Fear!!!

Your conspiracy charges might have been more fitting about five years ago.

I see no reason why the house of druids is so small. Is this not a game ? Is it not just some random tiles that can be fitted to be larger. What does it hurt to enlarge the house ? The house of druids is in the middle of no where and so it does not hurt to have it much larger then those huts in Varshikar.

That sounds like a double-edged sword. It's just some times and items. Why isn't Varshikar three times it's size? Or how about Tol Vanima? Or Silverbrand? Ad Nauseum

I guess what this really comes down to is if it's just tiles and items why not build that city you were so hoping for, right? Ouch. Conspiracy theories also work both ways.

Mmh to hit more on the old illarion trying to stay relevant to the new illarion, I have noticed the Bloodskull cave is much thinner and smaller then in the old client, and yet Silverbrand is much much larger then the last. Why would you do this, there are maybe .. 4 active dwarves, (Active being logging on maybe twice a week), that play IN silverbrand, so why must it be so vast ?

You wouldn't be aware of this, because you were permanently banned at the time, but Silverbrand expanded over the years and was paid for.

Could you inform me when you were unbanned?

Unanswered questions in this post that will likely just be answered with a witty single line comment from Martin or Keikan.

All answered with only a few witty one-liners.