Beschwerde GM-Spieler/Complaiment GM-Player (Englisch added)

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:24 pm

What is this story supposed to tell me? I've never been good in understanding fox'n'raven Stories.

Beside that, I think I know how Moirear thinks, partically. I like his way of thinking since I use it myself.
It's not worth telling people how good they are if there are bad mistakes behind it. It's not worth telling people how bad they are if they did it good behind it.
Moirear shows us that he likes and/or liked the game. He visits this forum though he doesn't really play the game. This pretty shows he is concerned about this community and/or the game.
I wouldn't visit a forum if I hated the people and hated all things behind it. There are enough other forums with people to shout at. Doesn't this show he is concerned about all this?

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:31 pm

There is no problem in leaving the game, I said before I don't care if people leave and decide to stay on the forums, if Moirear doesn't hate the game, then he sure as hell makes it clear he doesn't like it, or most of the forum's users. He sure as hell doesn't come here to make the game better, unless by better you mean he comes, complains about the same things, gets upset when the people who have listened to his arguments before and post thier counterarguments, and then goes on a little flaming trip, making things beter. Then sure he must have the bests interestes of the game to heart. It's also pretty clear he wants to insult me, by calling me a moron, he insulted me on purpose. He's a nice guy, like the roman two faced god Janus is a nice guy, he has two faces, one for the people he likes, and one for everyone else.

Also I do understand sarcasm or else I wouldn't be able to say what a great contribution you made to this discussion. (See sarcasm)

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:35 pm

Just a hint: I can read what he wrote here. I can see both faces like you use to call it.

Hm... anyway... I knew that people would either ignore or flame me. Go on - I deserved it.

*opens his player and plays John Miles - Music*

Cassandra Fjurin · Post by **Cassandra Fjurin** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:52 pm

OK, this is enough. From now on i think i will stop every Questsupport. All E-Mail or PM's with the request for questhelp will be deleted immediately. Sometimes i really ask myself why i am doing this. Maybe i change my oppinion but i have a real hard day behind me and that was enough for me.

In the past i have never ignored a PM for questsupport. If i couldn't decide alone i have ask other GM's i never made a decision for myself. You can ask Martin, you can ask Estralis and you can ask Damien. But now i am really pissed off.

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:53 pm

Hmm..bad analogy, Mo. While it's true that Janus had two faces, it doesn't equate to Moirear. If you were to call Moirear Janus, then he would be entitled to interpret that as a compliment. Janus' first face, looked toward the future, towards new hope. His old face, looked at the past, towards "better times."

Actually, the more I think of it, the more it's a better analogy for Moirear. Moirear looks toward the future (of Illarion) and makes posts, while considering the past situation of Illarion. His posts are mostly constructive although they do have a tendancy to be overly nasty towards some undeserving players...I'm looking in your direction, Mo.

While this post isn't as such a general contribution to the topic, I think I'll try and explain why Moirear lashes out. I'll admit to being the player who lured Moirear back to Illarion (my bad). Personally, I was sick and tired of players blindly following and agreeing with whatever their idols (the GMs) said.

While some amount of blind faith in our masters is encouraged, this total abandonement of intelligent debate and criticism began to irk me. So I invited Moirear to perhaps post on the boards, and give his outside opinion on the situation.

At this moment in time, I feel that Moirear is especially qualified to post his thoughts, as he is a Game master over at the Ascendance UO shard. This point leads me to the decision that yes, Darlok, Moirear does have an understandin of the overall picture and so is entitled to post his opinion on GM behaviour.

Now, onto Moirear's behaviour. While I can't condone his envenomed posting, which is often outright insulting, I do think that it's necessary. I know that you're all likely to be bored to tears by my polite manner and vague analogies, this is something that Moirear has always succeeded in overcoming.

His posts are stylish, well constructed (minus the venom) and now (at this point in his life) he is well entitled to post his thoughts on the GM situation, considering he is one.

Brendan.

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:00 pm

I DO think GMs have a hard job and they have my full respect, but it is not worth ignoring the thoughts of their players, they might lose them. This is my main thought.
I don't understand Cass in this point and I agree to Brendan.

Cassandra Fjurin · Post by **Cassandra Fjurin** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:06 pm

I totaly agree with this quote:

Darlok wrote:Of course this does not include that we walk around blindly and praise every of thier decision, but this excludes to insult them for thier devotion to this little gem we like to play.

To say it again, we need critisism. But in 90% we get some "All new is bad, bring back the old" posts. The least folk write what concrete is bad, and how we can do it better. Its like we building a new car. It is fast, it is powerfull and it is blue because we ( as the builders like blue and think the players also like blue). But maybe the most players like red. But do they say? Errmm... wait. We don't like the blue car, can you make it red for us? They say only: The whole car is bad. You can scrap it totally.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:33 pm

That's true, I run a server for a different game, and to be honest, I automatically jail (basically a timeout on that game) anyone who gives negative comments that arent constructive criticism. They deserve it. There is no problem with constructive criticism. In fact, If I had to choose between soemone being mean but giving ideas to improve (i.e. "This server is ****, add more weapons and make more interaction available") and someone nicely saying "I dont like this server", I would choose the former.

Nerevar Schattenaxt · Post by **Nerevar Schattenaxt** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:36 pm

Cassandra Fjurin wrote:OK, this is enough. From now on i think i will stop every Questsupport. All E-Mail or PM's with the request for questhelp will be deleted immediately. Sometimes i really ask myself why i am doing this. Maybe i change my oppinion but i have a real hard day behind me and that was enough for me.

In the past i have never ignored a PM for questsupport. If i couldn't decide alone i have ask other GM's i never made a decision for myself. You can ask Martin, you can ask Estralis and you can ask Damien. But now i am really pissed off.

TIBS

Thanks a lot Cassandra.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:59 pm

Brendan Mason wrote:
Now, onto Moirear's behaviour. While I can't condone his envenomed posting, which is often outright insulting, I do think that it's necessary. I know that you're all likely to be bored to tears by my polite manner and vague analogies, this is something that Moirear has always succeeded in overcoming.

His posts are stylish, well constructed (minus the venom) and now (at this point in his life) he is well entitled to post his thoughts on the GM situation, considering he is one.

Personally, Eric's posts are good for one sitting. When argued against, he becomes downright antagonistic, vehemently denying everything said to the point of disagreeing with his own posts. On top of this, when only asked to display the logic behind one of his arguments, he responds only with attacks.

I recall, for example, a time where I only asked for a logical reason why his opinion changed from point a to point b so quickly, and he provided no answer, picking at wordage and insulting my intelligence.

The only thing he argued consistently about, that is, after he changed his mind the first time, was his belief that powergamers were mistreated by the GMs. You and I both know more than most, Brendan, who agged on that witch hunt, even to the point of being dissatisfied and frustrated with what he considered as being the GMs doing too little to punish them. An argument with a GM later and we had a new, different Eric.

I liked Eric. I even liked Eric after the big change, but when the new Eric attacked me in public while asking to add me to his birthday calendar in private, I decided that there is something seriously wrong with the boy.

In short, I don't think there is anything to gain from that sort of rhetoric. Consistently myself, yourself, and others have asked for changes in Illarion without having to verbally attack people. Has Eric's posts changed Illarion? I don't personally think so. What is there to gain from that?

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:32 pm

Everybody, chill, sit down and have a cup of tea!

IMHO, this thread is too full of psychological BS and complexities to be taken seriously. Illarion is nothing more than a little role playing game that a few German fellas decided to make a few years back.

Let's have the process go like this: if you have a complaint about anything, move on over to the Proposals board and ask to implement a solution. If you don't have a solution in mind, bring it to the attention of other players and/or GMs that are willing to help.

GameMasters, don't expect complete cooperation. Players, stop calling the GameMasters douche bags - it doesn't help to demotivate already demotivating designers, especially when you want something changed.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:06 am

@Bloodhearte:

Amen

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:05 pm

Thank You Bloodhearte.

I've been gone for quite some time now (since september I think). I decided to come back and check things out. I spent about 2-3 hours scimming over some of the forums to try and get caught up on things and this is what I find.

For crying out loud people, it's a game. Need I say a FREE game?

Yes I had problems at first with Darlok's superhuman powers. I guess it was more jealousy though. I've been around off and on since the beginning of 2001. Who was this guy that he gets all these powers? What about the other players who have been around as long or longer? But like Darlok said, how would you like to be playing under a microscope with GMs watching every single move you make. Not me. And besides, it turned out to be one of the better times I have had playing Illarion because of the long story line and it actually got people to start roleplaying a little better.

As far as the other problems, if you don't like something bring it up in a nice and courteous manner. If you don't get the answer you like, remember, its a FREE game, and the GMs have real lives. If you can't help but get mad then do what I do, take a little siesta and go play runescape or something for awhile then come back. Or for a few of you people out there (and I do mean very few) don't come back.

In closing, I will say something you have all heard about a million times. It's a FREE game, enjoy it. That's what games are for, to be fun. I have several games that I play and sometimes get tired of (gta vice city, Neverwinter Nights, Zoo Tycoon, Sims, etc.). When I get tired of them and they are no longer fun, I quit playing. That simple. When Illarion no longer becomes fun for you then quit playing. Come back later and things will be new and different again.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:37 pm

I have asked one of our programmers for character values of the character "Maeve", and i have got all necessary information of the character background too.

The character is mainly thought as an NPC for a line of small quests with a main plot. After this mainplot is over, the character is either "new" (means, standard attribute values with "0" in all skills), or dead. In case 1, the player will continue to use the former NPC as a normal player character without any skills. In case 2, the character will be deleted.
When the character is ingame, there will most commonly be the one or other Quest GM around too, for watching player and interacting players.

Below are the characters combat-relevant values.

+--------------+------------------+----------+-----------+
| psk_playerid | psk_name | psk_type | psk_value |
+--------------+------------------+----------+-----------+
| 74199 | kah | 3 | 3 |
| 74199 | kel | 3 | 75 |
| 74199 | magic resistance | 3 | 70 |
| 74199 | orl | 3 | 1 |
| 74199 | parry | 5 | 9 |
| 74199 | slashing weapons | 5 | 1 |
| 74199 | tah | 3 | 1 |
| 74199 | yeg | 3 | 72 |
+--------------+------------------+----------+-----------+

Most of these will be reset to zero after the quest line ends OR char is deleted.

Attribute values :
str: 4
dex 15
const: 20
agi: 15
int: 22
per: 15
will: 25
ess: 25

Will be set to standard after the quest line ends OR Char is deleted.

Supposed main plot deadline : Mitte April, Anfang Mai / middle april, begin of may

Plot GMs / NPCs : Nanuk, Cassandra, Support by player (Maeve)

Nerevar seems to have gotten some wrong / incomplete information, and bent it to a "worst-case-scenario".

I have received the plotline story framework, and will continue to follow it, since Cassandra retreated from it.

Nikago Fyrstyn · Post by **Nikago Fyrstyn** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:55 pm

Why in Hell can someone get this much Skills and for someone who is atleast some time longer here, is a little push up of skills/attributs forbidden? Estra said that Chars didn't get anymore powerups but whats that, thats the ultra powerup?
At my quest I played it all the way without any powerd skills, well when I got them I really never knew it, but what now? someone comes "makes something", i can't decide what she did but its strange, and get this and is overpowerd tss..look at this

Attribute values :
str: 4
dex 15
const: 20 -> max is 18-> 2 points more than maximum
agi: 15
int: 22 max is 18 -> 4 points more than max
per: 15
will: 25 -> max is 19 -> 6 over max
ess: 25 -> max is 18 that means she got 7 more than max

ok I countet all the points that a normal player hasn't and I got to 45 points more to spent. maybe I missed some or got some more, but 45 Points more to spent, wheres the concept behind this? I ask a Gm and its forbidden for me and she just get it? Wheres the fair play in Illa?

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:59 pm

Nikago, please READ the text i posted.

There, i mentioned at least three time that this char is a plotline npc.
After the plotline ending (and depending to outcome), skills will be DELETED and Attributes will be SET TO NORMAL.

So please really READ what i post, don't just overfly it.
And yes, i can also write in red.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:01 pm

Ava, the character was made purely for quest purposes, the chances are that when the quest is over the character will be dead/deleted. And perhaps this character will need the skills to survive.

View this charatcer as a NPC if you will. And im certain that the player does not use these skills as an everyday occurance.

Id be damned if i was asked to create a character for a quest. and told that i must play the game for 100+ hours then it will be deleted.

As we all know the heros of illarion will find evil and attempt to kill it. If you look upon the stats shown to you they are all within defensive area, not offensive. My opinion is the character was created like this to enable it to survive to the quest end. Nothing more nothing less..

Nikago Fyrstyn · Post by **Nikago Fyrstyn** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:02 pm

I read it really clearly and would you got any sense what is up with my char you would know that Johann and mine died and we asked for extra skills too, but estra said not for chars anymore, well I it was this way, and to this point it was CLEAR that Johann will die in this quest, but well seems that fairplay is not longer liked in Illarion.

Edit: Arist its not the mainly part what skills or attis she got its just that "normal" players DON'T get this support even when they ask. Its funny in some days back Illa was always fair and always made fun, but when I see this, that just ruins my fun, why do I well more Johann get no support even when this quest was planned for his death, and someone other gets it?

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

*argh*

IT
IS
AN
NPC
.

Clear enough ?

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

You got stat boosts for Nikago, If i remember rightly he was a magic resistant timb bomb. So obviously yes when the situation calls for it the GM's shall increase stats.

Within your magic resistance, how long do you think your quest would have lasted. You would have had heros casting flames through the window of the tavern. As you saw them try yourself.

Its all circumstances, nothing more nothing less. I can see no harm from this if it aids towards the gameplay of the game.. Which it did for you, and which im certain it shall for the quest which this charatcer is involved in..

If a character has entered the game for said quest at such an early stage, im certain it will be a quest worth waiting for..

Nikago Fyrstyn · Post by **Nikago Fyrstyn** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:13 pm

Well I got this? When I asked estra about it she said i can't get anything like this, well and aslong as i remember you can't even cast in the Tavern. Not from outside in or inside out, oh well and when this really is trueth that I got this skills/attributs, then a GM, or maybe even estra shall say it here.
When just WHEN i had this powerup too than, but just should it be that case, its ok , but giving someone other no skill/atrributs and giving the other one it, its not ok ohh and btw. when I got staat Boosts had Johann Staat boosts too?

Oh and Damien the last time I saw her, she runned around and being
PLAYED
FROM
A
PLAYER

Edit:
Und da du anscheinend nicht verstehst was ich meine nochmal auf Deutsch.
Also in meinem Quest fragte ich Estra ob man nicht die Skills/Staats von Nika bzw. Johann boosten könnte, sie meinte daraufhin das ginge nichtmehr. Nun aber sehe ich groß im Forum das jemand für sein Quest einen Boost bekommen hat, aber da ich ja aus eigem Wissen weiß, das dies eigentlich nichtmehr möglich war, vielleicht hab ich auch Estra falsch verstanden, kotzt mich das natürlich an, schliesslich herrscht hier doch gleiches Recht für alle.
Clear?

Nerevar Schattenaxt · Post by **Nerevar Schattenaxt** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:20 pm

NPCs should be played by GMs

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:22 pm

Seriously, you people are like spoiled little children. Someone else has a toy that you can't have, and you're whining about it. This is a game. I wouldn't mind having stats like those either, but I don't. And Nerevar, I understand that you are annoyed with the PO Maeve for other reasons than this. Get over it.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:22 pm

So all characters to do with long standing quests created by the GM's for mine and your benefit need to be all GM controlled charatcers. If it is to be a quest of significance to have meaning to characters need background. And from what i have seen IG and read upon the forums, when this character has been online, this person created for said quest, that is all im understanding been to build a background for this said quest. As this is an OOC thread and you probably have heard it for yourself. This character Maeve within the game has been named a child of Bjolmur. This character is now banned from the town of trollsbane, for said reputation, not for going around and mindlessly killing other players, but through RPG threads and through RPG within the game and building this back ground.....

In all this time, i have not seen said skills abused, which im certain you have not. Just pure and simple RP which has developed a charatcer whom before would be a nobody whom if they appeared for said quests climax, you would think '' Who the hell is that '' Now you will recognise the charatcer and know the reasoning behind the quest. I personally do not know what this quest is. But would you rather have a person with no back ground. Or someone who has a background you can relate to..

Cassandra Fjurin · Post by **Cassandra Fjurin** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:32 pm

Nerevar Schattenaxt wrote:NPCs should be played by GMs

Interesting. Now i want to ask, do you really want that? She has asked that as she asked for the quest. I know her RP and think for myself that no GM would play her as good as she does it. And the GM's wouldn't have the time to do so. We can say now. Stop, the whole Maeve Plot ends here. We cut all she got for quest support and end this. And with every nagging about "only fighting quests" i will link to this topic and say that some players aren't be able to play other types of quest.

Nikago Fyrstyn · Post by **Nikago Fyrstyn** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:35 pm

Donal this is not like "you have it I want it " its about fairness and that every player can acces the same ressources and gain the same fun out of the game.

Well Arist atleast I heard already 3 (!) fathers of this girl so please when I'm thinking of a char and I can't put it into parentsrelations I can't make myself a story out of it.Oh and when you complain about, maybe i'm become paranoid or something, that my Char runs around kills people and got no backround, then its just because you maybe got too less informations or some people talk to less..or , and thats what i think, he just died too early..hmm..mayne he didn't died...

But it has nothing to do who's char it is its just the clear sign that someone, somehow, got skills/attributs that other Player can't acces, and this is just something I need to discuss. I would do this too when i see a powerd elf running around or someone other, not that you get me wrong and I'm mad just because its this char.

Maeve · Post by **Maeve** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:39 pm

Trystan is her biological father.
Dival is her stepfather because Deirdre married him.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:40 pm

I like the PO Nerevar and Sian, but as allways conflicts occour. Yes Cassandra you could end this quest now to please the few. But what would this accomplish, nothing. From all the people who play this game it is allways the same few who complain about certain unfair situations.. And it is no more than 5 people. And if you tell me there are only 5 people playing this game, i will sit here, laugh and blow bubbles at the ceiling, because that is bull.

The majority of the community do not complain. A majority are happy. Yes you will get complaints, you have to live with it. And yes we all like to get praise not bad comments about what we have done. But that doesnt allways happen..

If Illarion is going so much down hill, why have i noticed an increase in players, alot of these being new players. And why in my opinion and many others is this the best illarion has been for roleplay in a lon, long time.

Illarion is becomming different to what it used to be,, it is growing to be a true rolplay game.. Not a game where you sit about powering skills, but a game where you have a alot of stories and plots, and a game where you can be suprised at any moment.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:43 pm

Nikago Fyrstyn wrote:Donal this is not like "you have it I want it " its about fairness and that every player can acces the same ressources and gain the same fun out of the game.

Well Arist atleast I heard already 3 (!) fathers of this girl so please when I'm thinking of a char and I can't put it into parentsrelations I can't make myself a story out of it.Oh and when you complain about, maybe i'm become paranoid or something, that my Char runs around kills people and got no backround, then its just because you maybe got too less informations or some people talk to less..or , and thats what i think, he just died too early..hmm..mayne he didn't died...

But it has nothing to do who's char it is its just the clear sign that someone, somehow, got skills/attributs that other Player can't acces, and this is just something I need to discuss. I would do this too when i see a powerd elf running around or someone other, not that you get me wrong and I'm mad just because its this char.

Im not attacking your character Nik, when i mentioned going around and killing other char's i meant it in a vague sense. I know your character had reasons. I think meaning was lost through translation..

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:44 pm

Aristeaus wrote:it is growing to be a true rolplay game.. Not a game where you sit about powering skills, but a game where you have a alot of stories and plots, and a game where you can be suprised at any moment.

Oh? And the daily repetition of "DUEL ME, CAST ON ME, DUEL ME, CAST ON ME, DUEL ME, CAST ON ME!" is an unfortunate side effect of this great roleplaying?