No chance to get started?

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:26 pm

waste of time. i think if nothing happens it's a fair bet that your not doing something right. common sense really. nothing is fun if it has to be spelled out for you every time.

Quinasa · Post by **Quinasa** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:41 pm

Here here.

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook · Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:48 am

I agree with Athian too. Common sense seems to get left behind sometimes. Wheres the fun if everything is handed to you on a plate?
And no....experimenting is not a waste of time, the books are not useless (they give clues...some easy some hard) and interraction can be done by PM as well you know. Possibly people are of little help because your approach is wrong. People will not deal with you if you are a stranger or are too pushy.
Dont be in such a rush to get everything you want. Have fun roleplaying the learning process. Its not meant to be quick or easy to learn magic or everyone would be a mage and that would be no fun for anyone.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:33 am

I agree with Athian too. Common sense seems to get left behind sometimes. Wheres the fun if everything is handed to you on a plate?

Yea but since when was the fun factor of Illarion, about getting stuff?
Illarion's a pain in the ass, admit it. Probably worse than Evercrack.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:25 am

Everyone likes being "special" via item or skill. There really is no point to bust your ass, if your not getting anything. Enjoyment, satisfaction, ego, whatever you could possibly get from a game.

Its only a pain in the ass if your convinced it is, mind over matter. Whining is not how you get things done, its well thought out proposals.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:25 am

Gro'bul, the last couple of times I've logged in, I've seen more newer people running around killing monsters and buying things from the NPCs.
I barely see any new people grow up to be advanced players like some of the higher end people. They all just, disapear.

Starting out in this game is a huge pain in the ass. And to top it all off, it's not pretty enough to keep your mind busy while clicking at something (no offense, graphics are fine, but newer players may be frightened at first).
Once you get past the part of being killed by sheep and skeletons poking you to death, the game is great. You can do the things you want to do!
But the time of being weak has been increased to about five months if you don't break "0mFg P0\/\/3|\3RG@/\/\3R B@/\/" rule.

I saw one person, in about two weeks, gain almost as much as my character. At the time, I would have complained. But now I applaud him. Why? Because, he spent hardcore amounts of hours into the game, and wasn't even as good as me. The guy who played about 1 month at an average rate to get to where he was. And the only skill I've ever gotten past the Senior Master (or whatever it is) is fishing. Which took three days and got me nothing. So now I have a grandmaster fisherman and a moderate warrior.

The only person that I can say, actually started this game as a new player to me. And made himself into the regular role-play, was Sian. Perhaps Jeremy too.
But out of the so many new numbers and "Someones" I've seen, I never see them again. Most the time, they find themselves killing a pig while everyone's talking about being able to kill a demon with a needle.

I can get over mind over matter Gro'bul.
World of Warcraft.
Level 56 Gnome Mage. Max level is 60. And I'm about to get on to accomplish my goal of 60 in this weekend alone. PFWOOM.
Runescape
Level 81
I spent an entire month clicking on a little sparkly graphic, for a hat. A hat that did completely nothing but make me look cool.

I'm patient for nothing else, but gaining something in a game. I'll set myself an extreme goal at something. I've narrowed down "Farming" "Power Gaming" "Acheiving an Extreme Goal" in a game into different mentality thinkings. And I go through stages everytime I shoot for a new, extreme goal. Whether it be accomplish something in a short amount of time. Or simply get something extremely expensive.

But in this game, you cannot do that. You're simply blindly attacking things, not really knowing what the hell killing that thing is actually doing for you. So then, to tell if you're leveling or not, the pixels in their "color" gradually change. So to top it all off, they don't even know how much work they've accomplished.

Any item can be obtained with about an hour of killing mummies. You can get almost 10 ignots from it if you do it correctly. Which that buys almost anything except for the really rare items. Which prices jump from (maybe) 5 ignots, to 40 ignots.
Wow.
Killing mummies is great and all, but seriously. Why do I want to buy an item, in which no one can see. I can just, "say" I have it. And then I have it. Especially if it literally does nothing for me but make me look cool. It's not like I'm ever going to give it to someone, and why would I want to drop the item on the ground for a mysterious "monster ground sweep" (which is really annoying by the way).

When I joined this game, it was simple. Rocks were right here. Slam a shovel on the rocks, you get stuff.
Cut a tree down, get some wood.

Now we have to know exactly where certain things are. We also have to have about twenty hammers on us when we go mining (if hammers is actually what we need). To top that off, it's dangerous to cut trees now. Due to RP.
Okay yea, the Role-Play aspect is fine for the trees. I can really, honestly see that. But since when does a novice miner, in which spends hours a day mining, suddenly have no idea where to mine (If you haven't guess, it's me). We need some BALANCE in Role-Play as well! Yea, we can bend some things, but we have to bend it back buds.

Kasume, if you remember, was very intrigued by mining. Blacksmithing a tad. Which was what I was looking to make my character. And Role-Play that character as well. But when the drought came and went, I had no clue what tools to even use to mine. Okay so great.

I could rant on forever.

Rikan · Post by **Rikan** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:46 am

Athian wrote:waste of time. i think if nothing happens it's a fair bet that your not doing something right. common sense really. nothing is fun if it has to be spelled out for you every time.

Yet there is - or should be - a difference between "slightly wrong" and "really on the false track". And if you try 'common sense' you simply rule out certain actions which may be possible - like, common sense would dictate that using the scissors on a sheep means to shear it and using scissors on something else which can't be cut would be a quite senseless action.

If you just _know_ a certain action would lead to results it may look quite clear and explainable to you. But if you just have to guess it may look totally different.

To clear something up, I did programming in quite a number of MUDs (Multi-User-Dungeons) and do have a fairly good impression what sensible and maybe senseless ideas players may get. I've noticed a number of times where players literally stand in front of a locked door just because the may have the right idea, but the game engine wasn't all that helpful with determining wether their action is completely wrong at all, just needs some refinement, was performed at the wrong place or with the wrong item.

Note that text messages are all you see in such an online RPG. And to be terse with them is a tried and proven way to ruin the fun in quite a short time. So nothing happens, most of the time, right. But the main question is - why?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:35 am

@Kasume: Thanks for this post. While reading it, I sometimes nodded, sometimes I shaked my head, but most of all, I thought about the points you wrote down.

We'll see what future provides for us.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:14 am

Butt kickin' post Kasume. You put down criticisms that everybody knew, but could not put into words.

The closest thing that comes to "roleplaying properly" in Illarion anymore is talking around a campfire about stupid conversational pieces like "how's the weather," "how have you been doing lately," "rumor has it dwarf's beer sucks," etc. Way too timid/inactive for my taste.

As I said a million times, it would be great if things could be put back the way they were a while ago, when Illarion was bustling with people.

The skill system I just can't get over. Not only does it take the dedication of Mother Theresa to gain anything, but you don't even know if you've gained at all. I still don't understand why it was made so slow to begin with.

At least even in lesser games like RuneScape, I don't fear losing hours and hours of progress. What happens? You drop your items, so for now at least, you don't have the tools to fight as daring as you did. But in Illarion, not only do you drop your items, you lose skill too. One of my characters has a big arrogance problem, and was killed trying to fend off invading trolls. He dropped his best items for fighting and lost who knows how much skill.

Great, so my character has lost what took him a month to gain, plus what he seemingly started out with by begging...he has been set back for probably two months...all because of a personality flaw I intentionally gave him? Roleplaying rewarded my ass.

Illarion has no forgiveness for variety, no wonder so many characters are alike...they fear of being held back all the time, so they're forced to play the way they do.

More conservative players and others retort with "but that just boosts the egos of players rather than characters, and that's powergaming!"

First, games are meant to be fun. Simple. I for one find it fun when my level 20-22 characters on Growlanser beat the living bijesus out of opponents, but it doesn't mean there will never be a challenge for them! I find it fun to see that I've contributed to the strength of my characters, and that they actually developed, not stagnated in some ghost town, bored.

Second..."powergaming" is an overused term. I think the player should have his character rewarded with good skills (within a reasonable time frame) if they gave the game their precious time that they can never get back. I mean, what's the problem, so long as it fits in with their role?

Obviously the "older than thou is better than newbie" argument hasn't been working. An old assassin character of mine almost had his butt handed to him by a 70*** character, who even wanted to fight AGAIN, immediately after losing! This assassin character has been around for almost 3 years, and 70*** guys...probably not even one.

Games are fun when freedom exists too. As Konstantin pointed out, resources used to be easily gained, and therefore fun. Now you have to travel on the other side of the island, with nobody around, with 100 some breakable tools that won't work after 1,000 clicks...

And you can't get stuff with armor on, so you have to run the risk of bugs turning you into a cloud, and you have to travel across the island...again...to be revived. Oh, darn, you probably lost considerable skill too...AND your items, which probably disappeared by now! Not only are you back to where you started, but you've lost progress from the past! Talk about a regrettable experience, trying to get a freakin' plant or iron...

There isn't much freedom these days. Any freedom you try and implement will label you a powergamer, or nobody will care, thus not participating.

As for figuring out stuff, pretty much impossible. For example, trying to figure out which type of a certain object you have to use to summon a guardian, and then figuring out which item out of the God knows how many items around to give him...bah, I never have the time or patience, so I just forget rune collection altogether.

[/rant]

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:22 am

Really I don't get these people saying "you need 100 tools to get this friggen many"? Your character must just REALLY SUCK at what your trying to do. Attributes determine alot now. Lopsided characters are fun for fighting monsters, but for long time play they get boring quite fast. And as stated before countless times, going unread, you loose very little skill when dieing now. Hm, maybe your character lost alot because he was as dumb as a rock? Maybe you should just say you don't like the new realism?

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:52 am

Maybe you should just say you don't like the new realism?

Engulfing a man in flames with words is realism.
You can bend stuff. But you gotta bend it back.

Miraci Ruhn · Post by **Miraci Ruhn** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:55 am

Or break it...

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:22 am

Wrong word. I should have said :
Maybe you should just say you don't like the new realistic changes?
I was thinking this definition:
Of or relating to the representation of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are
not:
the attribute of accepting the facts of life and favoring practicality and literal truth

Example: Iron is found in mines like in real life, not just anywhere in rocks in the previous version of Illarion.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:46 pm

Gro'bul wrote:Really I don't get these people saying "you need 100 tools to get this friggen many"? Your character must just REALLY SUCK at what your trying to do.

'X' is a senior master fisherman, and it took me several poles to catch only a few fish...

Attributes determine alot now. Lopsided characters are fun for fighting monsters, but for long time play they get boring quite fast. And as stated before countless times, going unread, you loose very little skill when dieing now.

You still lose some though, along with dropping items. And the lopsided characters still kick the butts of well rounded characters with their mighty double axe.

Hm, maybe your character lost alot because he was as dumb as a rock? Maybe you should just say you don't like the new realism?

I wrote: An old assassin character of mine almost had his butt handed to him by a 70*** character...

He didn't lose, but was very close, and probably would've lost the second time around...I doubt that he would've granted me another chance if he had lost. Persona playing, for sure. But hey, you don't need more brain power than 8 to operate a melee killing tool. Technique and tactic is about experience, not intelligence.

I'm saying we should take what was good about the old system (quick battles with swords plunging in entrails, not this 'tap tap' boxing stuff), while keeping good stuff that was changed, like not being able to punch through two shields.

That's a bold statement, implying that I don't "appreciate da realism." Realism to a point is fine, but it's getting to the point where newbies have to live the game if they don't want to wait more than a year to get what they want, and that's unsatisfying to say the least.

Edit: It's my opinion that Illarion has too many "realism factors" to be appealing. These things would be fine if it served a massive player base rather than a handful of players, but it doesn't. So reverting to the simpler system is, I think, the best course of action to take if the aim is to attract more players...give them a sense of accomplishment, not a sense of forced "player interaction," lonliness, and lack of progress. It's hard to play Illarion for many hours and feel like you've accomplished anything.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:27 am

I think we are finding the problem here. It looks like the main problem, are goals. Honestly I have to agree with you, I think there are only long term skill goals in this game. That can get boring, very boring. HOWEVER, there is no pointing in whining about it unless you have a possible solution. The solution I "think" they are going to solve this problem with is npc quests. This is probobly some time away I am guessing however. Goals like getting good equipment is a good goal, but in illarion its pretty easy to reach in a matter of maybe days or a week. The only shorter goals than mastering a skill are the quests the gm's make. Making it easier to reach long-term goals won't hardly anything to fill the get best equipment - master craft gap. Maybe we should have ideas instead of complaints? gm's can only do so many in-game quests as their time allows, so more quests (which probobly will not include newbs) is not really a solution. I can't really think of anything, honestly its a deep hole that will take a while to fill with programming.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:55 am

Actualyl if you read the newsletter, npc quests may be done soon into the next client

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:10 am

Well I am new and can safely say I dont know a quarter of what there is to know and the bit I do is lightly not correct either but...
This post has jumped a lot from starting out to learning magic, I shant open my mouth on the side of magic. I will how ever say starting with nothing was a huge part of the expierence for me. It was exciting to be a pennyless drifter in a world full of chatter,money and established characters. Yes I found not knowing how to do simple things like dig a hole,barter with the npcs and the really simple skills I should know inhenrently a little vexing. This could be easly fixed though with a little interactive tutorial or not I over came it I believe most people can.
What of course makes this game is player interaction and this is were any of us with know how of any sort must step up to the best of our ability. That is to say I agree a lone assasin is not going to take a newbie under his wing or make many friends, how ever most of us could spare the time to engage a polite new player.
I am going to give a brief break down of my characters expierences in the game world "which may make this a long boring post but at the same time for me illastrates what makes this the most unique rpg online".
Day one, killed by a mummy many times,unable to find pigs, picked apples, couldnt use shovel, found a helmet and dagger "felt special" logged off while i was ahead.
Day2, walked to the well and watched world go by, asked dumb question, was enaged by a seasoned player had a great little rp and chat was gifted a harp and a meal supremely preciouse gift to my aspiring bard character. Learnt a bit about the world and made my first friend.
Day3, Met a miner/smithy who offered me employment carrying iron, agreed to fetch and carry for the simple fee of a little tuition. Had the most fantastic RP that came about of its own accord includeing a near mugging by an orc an attack by a crazed man in a mine and ended up with me smithing a shield, getting a sabre learning basic leather work and understanding the game.
Day4 met an aquaintance from the previouse day got reaquainted hunted mummys shared my meager knowledge of leather working had a blast all round.
What the end point of all this, this game starts and ends with us the players. Learning to RP on screen in real time is a huge jump from pen and paper rpg and I often make a mess of it or have weak moments and other times i just nail it. People have been patient with me and engaged me. As a result I am hooked and excited. I dont forsee myself getting bored here as this is simply put dnd on screen with all the potenial and varied people to rp with. Once my character can stand on his own feet I will invent ways to keep things fresh and exciting. Mastering a craft is nearly secondry to the amount of fun I can envision with a semi adept character. It all started with people taking the time to rp with the clumsy often slow and confused newb. It will grow and so will my ability to be a meaningful part of the world.
In closeing thanks to
Irania,Laizen and Miraci and others I have encountered includeing the orc for taking the time enage me I love it here.
And that friends is how one gets started in this game simple with good people.
Thats my long winded speech done,
Pendar
The dark bard

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:22 am

falco1029 wrote:Actualyl if you read the newsletter, npc quests may be done soon into the next client

It will probobly quite a wait for the next client.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:39 pm

Pendar, some one who takes what he is given and appreciates it, i take my hat of to you.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:05 pm

Aristeaus wrote:Pendar, some one who takes what he is given and appreciates it, i take my hat of to you.

Yea, that's real nice story Pendar.
First day I played, I had to make sure I had friends willing to help me before I entered the game. Those friends, are what taught me the basics.
I've tried it with other characters, people tell you things like this,

Person: (("Left right left click right up left down right + T = R LEFT, right up, down, and that's how you mine. Make sure you don't die from the big spider too. *g*G8*."))
Person: Good day! Make sure to bring me those ores so I can buy them off of you!
Me: Aw, hell! This is fun!

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:14 am

I've already said my ideas Gro'bul; get the old system back, but keep out things that sucked about it (i.e, punching through two shields, gaining parry real fast with quick hits, having attributes one sided to suit magic/fighting/whatever only).

You can say "appreciate what's already here" as much as you like, but that doesn't help Illarion any more than my bitching does.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:33 am

They are not going to revert to an overall worse system. Why don't you just propose something to edit the current one? Not being hit be a DEMON? OGRE? If you blocked a blow with your shield you would probobly be thrown 20 feet against the wall having most of your bones broken. Rediculous things like that, and instant healing potions, will never be reverted. Why would you want completely unrealistic-unfair gameplay?

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:25 am

kasume,
I couldn't agree more I have in my brief time in the game encountered players who firstly dont put any rp or energy into imparting knowledge and secondly dont even impart it clearly or helpfully.
This is again were we the players can step things up a bit. Some people are never going to be great role players fair enough so be it.
Many like me are learning as they go though, In my case I was lucky enough to by chance meet some one who made explaining the game to me RP. They walked and talked me with me down to the mine, they showed me how to mine by role playing it and then whispered the clicking combination. Same went for crafting a shield and even right down to how to trade with eliza, elaborateing on how she gave fair prices but some time towns folk would pay better...etc etc.
This is a trait I have adopted to the best of my ability. In turn I hope new players I encounter and teach the little i know in an interactive true Rp way will also take to doing it.
We can only teach by example when it comes to Role playing, it turn we will togther strength the realism and quality of illarion. Basically if peoples RP is great there is nothing one cannot achieve using this client.
just my observation,
Pendar

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:19 am

You can say "appreciate what's already here" as much as you like, but that doesn't help Illarion any more than my bitching does.

Don't mind if I steal that do you?
I can replace the word "Illarion" with so many other things.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:15 pm

Gro'bul wrote:They are not going to revert to an overall worse system. Why don't you just propose something to edit the current one? Not being hit be a DEMON? OGRE? If you blocked a blow with your shield you would probobly be thrown 20 feet against the wall having most of your bones broken. Rediculous things like that, and instant healing potions, will never be reverted. Why would you want completely unrealistic-unfair gameplay?

The not being hit by big monster thing in the system did suck, so that's why we shouldn't keep it. Why are you on this tangent of insisting I want an unfair, crappy system when I don't?

I'm only saying that there were things in the older system that were better, like fights ending quickly. I mean, fights are often done with big, blunt and/or sharp metal objects...somebody best be impaled in a few blows. It's too much like fist fighting right now.

And the trades, I feel, are too difficult to learn in order to balance it out along with how slowly the skill from that trade is gained. Not only is it darn near impossible to make the stuff, you have to find out how to do it (somehow), and under the unlikely circumstance one has the patience to progress, the gain is abnormally slow.

@Kasume - Go ahead with that one.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:26 pm

Thats strange, thats really strange.

First the majority of the community complainted very loudly how horrible the old fightings where.
2 slashes and everything was over, nobody got a single chance to react if he didnt constantly clicked on the 60 healing potions he carried with him.
We all welcomed the new fighting system, for which Martin spend weeks making and asking alot of people for thier imput, including me.
We hailed the possibilites to put #me's in a fight, the ability to try to flee, the ability to actualy type something.
Now all this is worth nothing and we want to go back to our Slash-Slash-Cloud-System ?

Granted, weapon balancing isnt the best. Balancing is never easy. It takes some time, time that is currently simply not at the hand of the team.
We will certainly not go backwards, only forward.

Trading skills are actualy very simple to learn, at least when you look at the plain point values.
On the other hand the feedback towards the player is worth to be improved.
The steps where you suddenly are able to create a handful (unconnected) new items are too far from each other.
If these gaps will be filled you never notice how hard or easy it is to gain plain skill points.

So please, for the motivation of our players and the team:
NEVER say you want something old back, thats not going to happen.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:26 pm

I'm not wishing that the old system, all of it, was back. Martin did a great job with the new stuff, but not every aspect of the old system was bad.

Success would still depend on well rounded attributes, weapon choice, and skill. The speed is one of the things that bothers me...I mean, I can understand the fight taking a long time if both individuals were of equal skill and attributes, that makes it real dramatic, taking a long time.

But I think these sorts of lengthy fights should be reserved for the "Achilles vs. Hector" kind of dramas, not every darn battle. In the old system, equally skilled people would take a while, while the obviously outclassed would suffer a mistep...and have a sword plunged into them real quick.

Regarding the potions, I didn't say anything about 'em. I like the way they are now.

I wouldn't see this as going backwards...if one goes forward, and reverts to something older, that isn't wasted time - you figured out what not to do, which is just as valuable as knowing what to do, it's still a learning experience.

I am also not speaking for the community. If anything, the majority still likes the current system and disagrees with me. Pardon if I'm being a motivation killer.

Amok BlackFang · Post by **Amok BlackFang** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:42 pm

Eh... Well I haven't played since 2003(Waiting for account at the moment), so I can't actually say anything else than... I liked it before and hope it is just as good now!

Edit: I don't mean to say that it should be as before, but I hope the important elements that existed before haven't been taken away