Critical Point.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:00 pm

To simply put the game back to how it was but with the updated graphics would solve very little, that again would be a wrong move.

You're not thinking the American way!

Sorry!

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:31 pm

Can some people spell "Alpha Version"?

-pto* Sian

*pto = "play-tester of"

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:21 am

I strongly object, stronger then I have ever objected in my whole life.

I do not talk about playing some game here and then, I talk about investing 8 and more hours per day in hard work for several month that I and others have invested in programming and creating graphics. This is something very different.

You are comparing playing a game with real work.

Do you know what that means? Basically you ask to undo half a year of my and others life. Just by snipping fingers. We invested the main part of the time we have in that!

Please stop before I REALLY start getting angry, I am rather upset now. And congratulations, yes, I wanted to program just now, but I currently lost motivation.
Sorry.

Martin

Motivation. Another striking similaritiy on the other side of the abyss. But that's another story for another day...

So where's the part about the good of Illarion and its roleplay? Isn't that what it's all about, rather than about you?
Don't get me wrong, I "appreciate" all the work you put into programming things, but I would be happier if you never did many of them. Just because you put time and effort into something, it doesn't mean that your finished product has improved Illarion. Sometimes the results actually make Illarion worse, but as unfortunately indicated by your response, it's not nearly as important as convincing yourself that your work was not a waste of time. But you know, sometimes finding out something doesn't work or learning from mistakes is not a waste of time and actually quite productive.

Of course, this is for the sake of responding to the fact that "time spent working on it" was your main criteria for whether or not to take back technical changes that made Illarion worse. In reality, the damage done to characters and plots can't be recovered whether or not you take back anything.

I understand how you feel about the players, martin. This is just a game right? You suffer for your work, while the players don't lose anything when their characters and roles are lost. Your work is tangible and ours are not. It's not even comparable to you. This is an alpha game and we are here not to roleplay but to "test" roleplaying. In your eyes, our characters and plots are expendable compared to technicality.

Well now you know why they don't last very long.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:30 am

Dyluck,

I haven't been around long enough to remember that patch that eliminated the ability for whiners to play.

--Mitch

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:58 am

Gee-whizz, Dilly, now that's some smackdown you're lying out. I suppose that to you it's not a privilege to play a game in an open Alpha test. Although I might add, it's your very view that annoys me the most in the "broad mass" of the illarion community:

Some wannabe-elitist roleplayers who are mistaken to believe they're playing a finished game.

If you're always looking back, how are you ever going to see what's in front of you?

And if you're always swooning about the jolly ol' times in this game, why are you never playing?

Which leads me to the question:
If you're never playing, what gives you the slightest right to critisize anything?

-pto Sian, confused

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:11 pm

(someone wrote to me via PM that Dyluck was saying fair things, and among other things, the whole GM-player mock-up and the account acceptance system lead us to feeling privileged to play illarion. This is my open reply)

Well, I basically agree with you, except that I don't believe what he wrote was fair towards Martin or the rest of the staff. If I'm not mistaken, they never started this project, but merely took over the mammoth free-time project known as Illarion which other people had started.

It's not the account system thing that gives me the feeling I'm privileged to play—it's the fact I know no other game where I've been playing in an Alpha Phase and also, an MMORPG that will end up free? Free of buying fees, free of monthy playing fees—in fact I look down on World of Warcraft because it would cost me monthly. When I play games, I'd prefer paying once for the game—or nothing, having the game passed on to me, for free. Everything else, in my eyes, defeats the purpose of the sense behind a game: fun. It mixes a sense of obligation into things, which I, of all places, find wrong in a role-playing game.

Now, while I appreciate people bringing real critique towards the game, as that should help towards improving it (see: Konstantin's going-away post), I don't appreciate some dickwad entering a forum and making himself sound like a deity of roleplay, although I don't believe I ever see him playing.

It's actually like Moskher kinda wrote in his last comment there:
There was nothing installed that prevented people from roleplaying.

If anything, it was people preventing people from roleplaying.

If martin did something that prevented the ever-arrogant Dyluck from playing—I'd like to thank him here and now. But he didn't. So I'm back to work of putting the game down so it actually can get better.

Conscience · Post by **Conscience** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:10 pm

The only "dickwad" I see here is you Moirear. And the fact that you look down on Dyluck for not spending as much time in the game as you makes you the arrogant one.

Dyluck presented some valid points. What right have you to bash him with your petty insults?

This is what impedes the improvement of illarion. This stupid putting down of other players that you so well demonstrated Moirear. You presented points of improvement earlier and that was all fine and dandy so why is it that you can't stand the fact that someone else has something to say too?

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:51 pm

For the same simple reason I don't appreciate cowards using covert board identities:

Martin and staff changed the game over time according to proposals and wishes of players, slowly "improving the game over time"—which means that not only Dyluck puts down staff, he puts down everybody who tried to contribute to the game in any thinkable form.

To say it straight: Some of you apparently have nothing to say, and would do better off with a simple stfu.

Not only that, mr. "Conscience", I was the person who first began saying that the forum is a disgrace to the game—anti-advertisement, even. If you're so hell-bent on improving the game, then say how it's done, and don't follow in Dyluck's footsteps by sacrificing constructivity for self-glorification and cerebral masturbation. If the roleplay is so horrible as you all say, then how come you can't even formulate a text about what it is that is so utterly horrible about it? Why are you hovering over the game like distant, angry Gods? I think you're morons, and I believe I have to point it out for every single one of you, or so it seems. As much as I complain and bitch and whine about this game and all it entails, I also have some good things to say about it, and well, golly, I do have some things to say about it after having played for the last five months.

Which actually leads me to the role-playing, which Dyluck appears to loathe so much right now to the extent he won't play, so I feel insulted in a way too—I mean, if Dyluck critisizes nothing but the role-playing and "his" stories that took place and supposedly can't take place anymore, what should I be taken to believe he thinks? I think that makes him a first-class jerk in my eyes, one who judges people's role-playing on a gliding scale, but who won't offer guidance, either, as to how to live up to his highly and righteous standards. Hello? What kind of argument is this? If he elaborated on how the game ruined his possibilities to play, I think alot of people could understand, including myself.

What Dyluck wrote up there is just a complete and utter insult. I mean, think about it. Here he is one thread, on another, promoting his little old-school Japanime-RPG of his exploits in a MMORPG on the same forum of besaid game, which, he doesn't play anymore, as he claims this to be the fault of some staff who changed the game to the point where he couldn't play anymore (excuse me? Who had an error message saying: "You couldn't log in. If your name is Dyluck, don't even try"?).

So, yes, I am a dickwad. But so is Dyluck. So are you, "Conscience".

It takes one to know one, they say.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:23 pm

Replacing constructivity with "cerebral masturbation..."

Yep. Over here, we call that "pseudointellectualism" Moirear.

The same reason why I loathe my English class.

Anyway, leave Martin be Dyluck. Is there a substantial, communitive post from you that doesn't involve chasing the other guy around and bashing him in a subtle way? I agree that a game should please the players rather than the developers, but it's important to remember that the developers are *gasp* human.

I programmed games in my very early teens for Macintosh. Although I made a couple, I soon gave up, considering I had little motivation and patience to sit for more than 15 minutes typing in expressions and numbers that meant little to me.

A lot of fellas want to get into computer science and game creation because they think it will be oodles of fun. Well, it's not. In order to make a product that will please everybody (NOT you), lots of time and bucketloads of endurance are required. Maybe Martin is lacking that. But damn, he spent YEARS helping with Illarion, a free game with absolutely no profit whatsoever! No wonder!

Martin and staff - thanks for this Illarion experiment, and don't be concerned that you've attracted players who confuse Illarion with a full fledged RPG. I hope you fellas aren't suffering too badly, because if you are, I'd advise a lengthy vacation. If you still feel poor about this project, maybe you can hand it to somebody else? Temporarily at least? If you guys stay here, never taking time off, unmotivated - then how will Illarion ever improve?

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:51 am

@Martin- I didn't mean for you to turn the game completely back to the way the game was before the drought. I was meaning, will GMs step away from controlling player run governments and guilds. Will GMs not give special treatment to certain players.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:09 am

Wow, that's a lot Moirear. Where should I begin?

1. So what exactly do you find incorrect about what I wrote? Are we not in agreement? I have plainly spelled out that this is an alpha game as you have. Except of course, that I have laid out the other half of that statement that never get mentioned: Just as the players recieved alpha-like treatment, the players GIVE alpha-like treatment. What that means, is that just as martin, programmers, or anyone else who's not dedicated to preserving the intergrity of the characters, roles, stories, and the existing roleplayed character community within the game, neither do the players feel an increased dedication, responsibility, worth, or debt to them, nor loyalty to the game. I'm simply showing martin, that the worth of our "ic intangibles" in his eyes, is correlated with the players' desire to stay. What martin doesn't understand (or care about) is that the existance of lush characters, character communities, the chemistry of their complimenting roles, and stories (which doesn't just grow back everytime the field is covered in insecticide just to kill a few ants) is what made this game great and worth more to us than poorly thought out technical changes that impede them. Do you disagree? Maybe you do, I don't know. There is after all, a subtle difference as to why some people had put so much work into this game.
People like martin were trying to achieve a fun "roleplaying game" while people like me were trying to achieve a fun "roleplaying community". Both have their merits and I've simply laid out the difference of the two ideals for everyone to realize and think about:
Which ideal are you working towards the most?
Because the two do come into conflict, and whenever they do, something gets sacrificed.

2. Yes, I DON'T feel it's any more of a privilege for us to play this game than it is for martin or anyone else to have players who invest whole-heartedly invest their time into testing this game for the "same goal" as theirs. I give only as less or as much respect as that which I am given by them or anyone else.

3. What gives me a "right" to criticize? I don't need a "right" to criticize anything, determined by when or how long I play. I've never told some noob with a post count of 1 that they can't say what they think. What an odd question from you Moirear, considering you wanted people to open their eyes and lips. If anything, the fact that I don't play the game anymore nor crave technical development allows me to speak freely without having to curl up afraid like a timid mouse on their lap and hold back everytime someone threatens to stop all technical development when their judgement gets criticized.

4.

Martin and staff changed the game over time according to proposals and wishes of players, slowly "improving the game over time"—which means that not only Dyluck puts down staff, he puts down everybody who tried to contribute to the game in any thinkable form.

So if I disagree with whether or not a certain "thing" has improved Illarion, that means I'm putting down the staff and "everybody" who agreed or disagreed to it? That's quite an over-generalization there. Are you saying that if a bad decision or change is made, that it should never be taken back? I doubt you actually think that. You've just incorrectly taken my statements to be interpreted as either "all change is bad" or that the resulting end of the chain is bad, and so you've absorbed it like a sponge as an insult to you and your generation.

5.

If you're so hell-bent on improving the game, then say how it's done, and don't follow in Dyluck's footsteps by sacrificing constructivity for self-glorification and cerebral masturbation. If the roleplay is so horrible as you all say, then how come you can't even formulate a text about what it is that is so utterly horrible about it? Why are you hovering over the game like distant, angry Gods? I think you're morons, and I believe I have to point it out for every single one of you, or so it seems. As much as I complain and bitch and whine about this game and all it entails, I also have some good things to say about it, and well, golly, I do have some things to say about it after having played for the last five months.

Yeah, what's with grumpy old Dyluck anyways? I mean, he's NEVER even wrote a damn line of text on how to help the game! Not even ONE in over 1827 posts! DAMN! Why won't the bastard write an essay every couple of months?

I'm not the one who considers you a noob, but I don't need this bullshit from some guy who's read maybe 25 of my 1827 posts and then tells me I've never offered any constructive advice or proposals or elaborated on what's wrong with the game and how to change it.

6.

Which actually leads me to the role-playing, which Dyluck appears to loathe so much right now to the extent he won't play, so I feel insulted in a way too—I mean, if Dyluck critisizes nothing but the role-playing and "his" stories that took place and supposedly can't take place anymore, what should I be taken to believe he thinks? I think that makes him a first-class jerk in my eyes, one who judges people's role-playing on a gliding scale, but who won't offer guidance, either, as to how to live up to his highly and righteous standards. Hello? What kind of argument is this? If he elaborated on how the game ruined his possibilities to play, I think alot of people could understand, including myself.

That underlined part... where do you figure that from?
Have you noticed how much you wrote about how loathsome the roleplaying is now? Have you noticed, I did not? In fact, I think some of you might have some of the best roleplaying skills Illarion has ever seen. I could randomly pick any single character from your generation and he/she would probably be more dynamic and interesting than the best of my "jolly good era". Some of you might be better than me, yourself included. So now you know, I don't find your generation to be poor roleplayers. In fact, I find them better than ever. And yet, I dare say your generation has the bleakest future of any and has the least potential of new roleplayers staying.

The word "roleplaying" has gotten thrown around so much, it has come to represent more than what it really does. Everyone knows how to say "roleplaying" will help Illarion. Anyways, you've asked quite a lot of "hows" here. Always talking about how. Just like on the boards, there's always people talking about "how you should have RPed that" or "how you should have reacted to my roleplay here" etc. Hell, you're even writing your very own guide on how to roleplay in Illarion. It's always about the "hows". Remember how I said #me statements are overrated? Maybe you should stop asking "how" so much and started asking "what" once in a while first. The best path to a fun/good roleplaying game/community, isn't always the most straightforward path.

I could desrcibe each of the most frequently played characters of my era with simple words like mage, knight, dwarf, carpenter, ranger, elf, merchant, monk, priestess, etc. Sounds pretty flat right? I bet your generation has a lot of personality in their chars than can be put in single words. Yet, somehow, the sum of of my era's chars all add up like pieces of a puzzle into something that your generation doesn't have. It's not something that just grows back everytime the cornfield is covered in insecticide just to kill a few ants. Do you understand just "what" that is? I know it's not easy to understand and I don't expect you to. I know I've still been enigmatic in my explanation.

7.

(excuse me? Who had an error message saying: "You couldn't log in. If your name is Dyluck, don't even try"?).

Hmmm... no, but I do have a couple of "Characters XXXXX does not exists", some "Don't you think I have better things to do than restore some useless characters and items? Just wait and I'll do it later ok?" followed a month later by "Oops, I forogt to do it", bugged up/missing items. Anyways, sent email and PM about one year ago so I'm sure it'll get taken care of any day now. I guess it's really not all that important, but since you were curious, I thought I'd share it with you.

In the end, I don't see what focal point is that we disagree on that was being discussed on. After all, you didn't even talk about them. You didn't so much as touch on the issue of "why changes aren't taken back" to which my point was that martin wrote himself that "the work he put into it" was the key, and not whether the results were infact beneficial, and that he shouldn't hold so low in value our work in ic intangibles. THAT, was what I was about after all. But not for you. You're pissed off, apparently because you feel personally hurt and insulted that you think I find the roleplaying of your generation loathesome (which you now know is untrue) and that you think I haven't contributed on how to fix or change problems (which I should even be more pissed off about). Right now you're still in your trigger happy anti-egotistic phase and suddenly the elitist club has open membership. It's reflected on the single line you highlighted and even when your write your roleplaying guide now in "how to avoid egotistic roleplay" (Hell, try searching that phrase in google). You're feeling insulted because you feel certain people see you as inferior and now you've put me in that group. This is just your personal vendetta with whatever mistreatment you felt from whatever "elilists" or people with advantages, or whatever you had to deal with. That's your problem to deal with, not mine.

If there's any advice I need to offer, I've already offered it, and that is that martin needs to change his point of view on the worth of the "ic intangibles" that make up Illarion and that which its players have worked for. I'm fairly sure you've experienced first hand the frustration of having waste 5 times the effort you should to do something just because of someone else's arrogance. If I've never personally offered you a piece of advice and you so want it, then let it be the same enigmatic chicken scratch here and now: First figure out the details of "what" made Illarion a great game to play, before figuring the details of "how" to achieve it. Whatever it is, you may have experienced it yourself, but you still have to pinpoint the factors to know what they are.

PS: If logging in is everyone's answer to everything, then there wouldn't be any compmlaints or suggestions to help the game, especially from any piss-assed shoe-licking jealous bandwagoning two-faces who tries to shove that in my face.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:09 am

Bravo. Now that's more like it.

From the thread in off-topic, "How do you feel right now?":

Dyluck wrote:Smug with a devilish smirk as if to say I hold many vital pieces to an important puzzle.

My turn.

Dyluck wrote:PS: If logging in is everyone's answer to everything, then there wouldn't be any compmlaints or suggestions to help the game, especially from any piss-assed shoe-licking jealous bandwagoning two-faces who tries to shove that in my face.

That would be my favourite part. Gave me some good laughs, and is a great way to start my day!

Shen · Post by **Shen** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:57 pm

Yep, KK...your right. Illa was AWESOME until they made the changes. Pronon is right too. The game was good before the brought, the thing that i can say that could have gotten better was the graphics. Now you have to go to a didfferent cave for each gem...a new place every week for the herbs...seperate mines for iron ore and coal...trees grow slower...takes too long to gain skill. KK is totally right on everything.

It was fun playing with you KK.

and good bye!

Irania · Post by **Irania** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:37 am

Your posts are all too long, some of us with the attention spans of dead fish are having a bit of trouble keeping up.

martin · Post by **martin** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:13 am

Dyluck wrote:That's quite an over-generalization there.

If you demand that EVERY change (there were thousands of them, in fact, beginning with the new, improved client which was a lot of work, and ending with server changes and new or altered scripts) should be set back to zero, that is NO over-generalization?
If you claim that every single change -- I doubt that you are able to summarize at least 30% of them -- should be taken back, that is NO over-gneralization?
Are you serious?

I do not forbid anyone to do that, to ask for it or anything. I never will.
All I said is:

It would have been about half a year wasted time, which I could have used for studying another subject at university, doing more sports, meeting friends or get a job and earn money. I counciously didn't do any of these but instead I tried to help Illarion. I could have had a job, really, I refused it. If you now say that all of the time I used for Illarion was for nothing and should be taken back, I will never again want to have anything to do with Illarion, because it would remind me of all the time I wasted, all the money I did not earn, the subject I did not learn (heterotic string theory, in case you might ask what this was).
I would try to remove all memories of Illarion.

That's all I have to say.

You could have argued against individual changes, why they were bad, how they could be better etc.; Instead, you generalized and argued about every single change, without mentioning a single argument.

Martin

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:41 am

Wow, good morning.

@Ira: Sorry.

@Whomever it concerns:

Dyluck wrote:1. So what exactly do you find incorrect about what I wrote? Are we not in agreement?

I don't agree with your self-glorifying attitude, as I now state twice.
Your post is full of attitude, but devoid of content.
Refer to martin's last response to see how some people take it.

Dyluck wrote:What that means, is that just as martin, programmers, or anyone else who's not dedicated to preserving the intergrity of the characters, roles, stories, and the existing roleplayed character community within the game, neither do the players feel an increased dedication, responsibility, worth, or debt to them, nor loyalty to the game.

We're still talking about a game, right?

Dyluck wrote:I'm simply showing martin, that the worth of our "ic intangibles" in his eyes, is correlated with the players' desire to stay. What martin doesn't understand (or care about) is that the existance of lush characters, character communities, the chemistry of their complimenting roles, and stories (which doesn't just grow back everytime the field is covered in insecticide just to kill a few ants) is what made this game great and worth more to us than poorly thought out technical changes that impede them. Do you disagree? Maybe you do, I don't know. There is after all, a subtle difference as to why some people had put so much work into this game.

And you still consider yourself playing a game, as working. Pathetic.
By the way, I do disagree.
Because I played the last five months. Read Moskher's comment to your initial post in this thread. That perfectly sums up my arguments of disagreement in one sentence.

Dyluck wrote:People like martin were trying to achieve a fun "roleplaying game" while people like me were trying to achieve a fun "roleplaying community". Both have their merits and I've simply laid out the difference of the two ideals for everyone to realize and think about:
Which ideal are you working towards the most?
Because the two do come into conflict, and whenever they do, something gets sacrificed.

Whatever you say, Dyluck.
If you mean the community that has long-lasting, old-term players in it, who try to tell me who is a notorious liar and who's not, who I should play with, and who not, I don't understand what you understand under "community". In the past five months I played, most of what I felt from the "community", was hostility—out of character—between players. There were many shining lights, but I never felt any sense of "community". Now, I assume you mean "character community".
But explain this to me: If everybody's so enigmatic, and talking-behind-other-people's backs, how is any community supposed to grow?

Dyluck wrote:2. Yes, I DON'T feel it's any more of a privilege for us to play this game than it is for martin or anyone else to have players who invest whole-heartedly invest their time into testing this game for the "same goal" as theirs. I give only as less or as much respect as that which I am given by them or anyone else.

Again, I disagree.
As said several times, you compare your time playing a computer game with real-time work. If I had the slightest clue that you had played this game nearly 12 hours a day, turned up job oppurtunities, and gave up part of your life to play someone else's game, I would accept your argument here, but reading through martin's reply, I have to say, having a "Conscience", I cannot.

Dyluck wrote:3. What gives me a "right" to criticize? I don't need a "right" to criticize anything, determined by when or how long I play. I've never told some noob with a post count of 1 that they can't say what they think. What an odd question from you Moirear, considering you wanted people to open their eyes and lips. If anything, the fact that I don't play the game anymore nor crave technical development allows me to speak freely without having to curl up afraid like a timid mouse on their lap and hold back everytime someone threatens to stop all technical development when their judgement gets criticized.

You're not speaking freely, you're always being "enigmatic", "uber-intelligtent", or portraying some other human complex. Get over yourself, man.
And I always thought my ego was sky-scraper high.

Dyluck wrote:4.
Martin and staff changed the game over time according to proposals and wishes of players, slowly "improving the game over time"—which means that not only Dyluck puts down staff, he puts down everybody who tried to contribute to the game in any thinkable form.
So if I disagree with whether or not a certain "thing" has improved Illarion, that means I'm putting down the staff and "everybody" who agreed or disagreed to it? That's quite an over-generalization there. Are you saying that if a bad decision or change is made, that it should never be taken back? I doubt you actually think that. You've just incorrectly taken my statements to be interpreted as either "all change is bad" or that the resulting end of the chain is bad, and so you've absorbed it like a sponge as an insult to you and your generation.

Yeah, and with a good reason.
You have yet to specifiy what these changes are, Dyluck.
I'd like to remind you that people like me have started threads in the Proposals section like "Potions". Idiots like you spam them up with comments like "#me's are overrated", the change of the jumping function, and many other things.
"Me and my generation"—we read craploads of bullshit from your likes, and in case you've missed it, I now say for at least the third time that the forums are anti-advertisement for the game.
a ) you go into lengths of criticisizing something, but have yet to detail it
b ) you go into lengths of insulting me after I tried to provoke you to write a coherent post
c ) the elaborate ruse backfired and you just ranted over almost a full page, fletching some well-thought-out insults into it
Which part of "cerebral masturbation" do you not understand?
Fourth time:
The forums are anti-advertisement for the game.
And I hope you do see, I'm reasonable here, because while I also blame Martin for it, I just as well blame you and others, including myself.

Dyluck wrote:Yeah, what's with grumpy old Dyluck anyways? I mean, he's NEVER even wrote a damn line of text on how to help the game! Not even ONE in over 1827 posts! DAMN! Why won't the bastard write an essay every couple of months?

See above.

Dyluck wrote:I'm not the one who considers you a noob, but I don't need this bullshit from some guy who's read maybe 25 of my 1827 posts and then tells me I've never offered any constructive advice or proposals or elaborated on what's wrong with the game and how to change it.

Dyluck, I don't need to read the rest of your 1827 posts; if I did, you may freely consider me a loser, and that long insult you thought up to craftfully end your post.
If your "maybe 25 of 1827 posts" were 99% babbling idiocy, and 1% useful communication, I wouldn't have to say this, but:
What I've read from you lately was neither constructive advice nor proposal.

Dyluck wrote:The best path to a fun/good roleplaying game/community, isn't always the most straightforward path.

Ahem, try finding that phrase on google.
I disagree, but I could go on for hours about it, and since you're not elaborating on the problem, still, there's no point in it. In fact, the straightforward path, I believe, will always lead to the better results.
If you have trouble understanding my argument here, read everything else I wrote in this post, again, which you can find above here.

Dyluck wrote:I could desrcibe each of the most frequently played characters of my era with simple words like mage, knight, dwarf, carpenter, ranger, elf, merchant, monk, priestess, etc. Sounds pretty flat right? I bet your generation has a lot of personality in their chars than can be put in single words. Yet, somehow, the sum of of my era's chars all add up like pieces of a puzzle into something that your generation doesn't have. It's not something that just grows back everytime the cornfield is covered in insecticide just to kill a few ants. Do you understand just "what" that is? I know it's not easy to understand and I don't expect you to. I know I've still been enigmatic in my explanation.

That's an interesting analysis, but considering I've been playing the past five months, you haven't, and I still don't understand what prevents whiners from playing, I think you're an idiot for claiming something like:
"Yet, somehow, the sum of of my era's chars all add up like pieces of a puzzle into something that your generation doesn't have."
I assume someone from your old "community", "informed" you of "how it is". I'd like to inform you and tell you that you're wrong.
The puzzle is there. But the "community" as a whole makes it impossible.

Did you read Kasume's post?

It was all in there:
"The problem is not the game, it's the players."

Dyluck wrote:You're pissed off, apparently because you feel personally hurt and insulted that you think I find the roleplaying of your generation loathesome (which you now know is untrue) and that you think I haven't contributed on how to fix or change problems (which I should even be more pissed off about).

Thanks for clarification.
And I'm still pissed off, because if I read above, you don't find them loathesome, you find "my generation" boring. "A puzzle that doesn't fit together".
Dyluck, you are a self-glorifiying hypocrite, and I'm still waiting for your detailed list of what changes to the game have impeded your "puzzle" from "regrowing" as you "kinda" put it.
I'm out of the loop, I started playing a day after the new client was released.
If you keep whining without listing what these problems are, newbies like myself from the last five months are inable to understand what you're saying. Can you call that working towards a "community"? Or do you just lurk on these forums to destroy besaid "community"?

Dyluck wrote:You're feeling insulted because you feel certain people see you as inferior and now you've put me in that group. This is just your personal vendetta with whatever mistreatment you felt from whatever "elilists" or people with advantages, or whatever you had to deal with. That's your problem to deal with, not mine.

The only point where you're dead-on.
And why I should not feel like I'm being treated as inferior by some thick-headed morons (mind you, who think they are the shiznit for having played a computer game for years and having a post count on the forum of besaid game rangining in the thousands area) who can write a giant post just to insult me after provocation, but miss the point by 100%; is my problem to deal with, if I'd like to "work towards a community".

Dyluck wrote:If I've never personally offered you a piece of advice and you so want it, then let it be the same enigmatic chicken scratch here and now: First figure out the details of "what" made Illarion a great game to play, before figuring the details of "how" to achieve it. Whatever it is, you may have experienced it yourself, but you still have to pinpoint the factors to know what they are.

Listen, you imbecile. I'll spell it out for you:
Say what you want to say, and don't beat around the bush.
Tell me, "what" made Illarion a great game to play?
I can tell you what "makes" Illarion a great game to play right now, and it's definitely not the client, it's the role-playing. So why do I go into lengths of working on a role-playing guide? Simply because I don't want mistakes from the past to repeat!

-pto Sian

PS: I'm not a shoe-licking jealous two-face. If anything, I have about ten faces (technically making me "a schizo", but I'd prefer the term "Devil's Advocate"). The rest of that part was correct.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:14 pm

I think Irania is the only sane person to have posted here.

Pronon Palmsuger · Post by **Pronon Palmsuger** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:41 am

Im sure Moirear is talking about me, I played long before you, and I still consider my self a very new player. And perhaps I Still play? Maybe I have other charecters? maybe... hmm that is obviously not reasonable seeing as you cant get more than 1 charecter...oh wait you can..hmmm

Sorry if I seem too blunt, but really.....

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:27 am

Let's say I did possibly understand the essence of what you were trying to say, Pronon. No, I presume I did not mean you, as you're not spamming up the board, nor is every second post of yours stating that you don't play the game anymore.

No, in fact, I think you're not being "blunt" enough with your post here, as I still have trouble understanding it. Which would be the identical reason I was angry with Dyluck in the first place. In fact, I don't understand what you're trying to get at, and since it has nothing to do with criticising the game illarion, or insulting the people behind developing it, nor do I understand what exactly you're getting at.

People who write in riddles shouldn't expect to be understood by everybody. Even though I write giant posts, this does not speak for my intelligence. Quite in the contrary, I'm not intelligent at all. I'm inable to say things short enough, in order for some people to actually read them. I have trouble understanding something someone writes in an enigmatic fashion.

If you can't say it straight, I don't see a point in saying it at all.

You can all read Konstantin's post, right? That is "saying things straight", in my book.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Well... Konstantin, if you're leaving... Can you take Kasume with you?

I'm beginning to find that more and more of the people that got me playing in the first place are gone. This is not their fault, of course, but I'm starting to find less reason to play.

~AL~

Sir Gannon · Post by **Sir Gannon** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:16 pm

I can't belive I spent half an hour reading this entire thing. My head hurts now.. * Pops some ib prophen * Just wanted to say this in general and God forbid I flare this back up. But in the life I have played this game it is only NOW beggining to get the same endearment to me as when I first started.

As for the Gm's I think they are doing a wonderfull job and I would like to thank everyone of them right now for the endless hours they have put into the making and playing of this game. Main point here is WHEN THEY DID NOT HAVE TO. I know for a fact no one is getting paid for any of it. It is a JOY for me to sit here with my broke leg and enjoy this game FOR FREE.

In the past few weeks I have got to enjoy many player ran but Gm supported quests. They were done beautifully. ( Even though people died blah blah blah

) It was still wonderfully worked out and done. Plus the events done only by Gm's. I thank you all yet again for the enjoyment I KNOW you brougt to many many players.

I think I have seen the point brought up many times now that this game is in ALPHA stage. In my years of playing online rpg's ( My personal favorite ) I have yet to see a game in the ALPHA stage with this type of game play! Not to mention jobs and things to do when no one is around! It is truly an acheivement to be marveled at. I do. As Gannon I am still finding out new things I did'nt know yet. For there is quite a bit indeed.

All I wanted to convey with this message is we should realize that for all our whining and complaining this game is brought to us free. The people who spend time to code it ( And holy crap for you who know nothing of C++ it takes hours and hours and THOUSANDS of lines of code. ) So we should be a little more apreciative and respective for something that we can only make better by offering our suggestions as players to the makers and caretakers.

As always have fun bashing, and finding loopholes in everything I have wrote

Cirindil Atarion · Post by **Cirindil Atarion** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:47 pm

I have to agree with Gannon. Thus far, I am loving every minute when playing this game! You can farm, read books, learn magic, find rare herbs, bake your own food; label me as naive, but I really believe the possibilities for roleplaying here are endless.

I read many criticims about how this game is not like Ultima Online, but I am liking this game for the very reason that it is not Ultima Online.

AlaineMilan · Post by **AlaineMilan** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:40 am

yeah Gannon, finnaly someone who i can agree. I hate this topic, cause I dont like it when all people get angry with this game. When they think that the game is that bad, why a re all playing it?

Fact: I love this game

Mfg Alaine

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:43 pm

Cirindil Atarion wrote:I really believe the possibilities for roleplaying here are endless.

That's not true. For them to be endless, that would require everybody to play along with everybody's role-playing. Which is not always the case (which was why the person who initiated this thread quit, if anybody read that).

AlaineMilan wrote:When they think that the game is that bad, why a re all playing it?

Strange question, because alot are in fact not playing it anymore because they appear to have gotten fed up with certain aspects of this game (some written in this very thread, just thought I'd mention that as you seem to not sense where the negative vibes are coming from).

Now comes the double-whammo. I do basically agree with some things you've written here.

So, err, why would I post such a snappy response?
To such positive words? Because,
a) You're insulting the people who wrote worthy critique
b) The thread is called "Critical Points"

People, wake up.

This game is not perfect, never will be perfect (nothing is), and it will only improve if you keep a sharp critical lookout for things that could be improved.

Just my "two cents", before you people start group-hugging or evoking Care Bear© powers (and make me run outside vomitting all over the place).

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:52 pm

Moirear Sian wrote:(nothing is)

Except me.

Anyway, it just takes about fifteen minutes from the time you first set foot in game to see a few of the more irksome problems of the game (listed all over this topic). Without constructive criticism, nothing can ever grow, develop or become better. Blind praise is a destructive force, allowing people to become complacent.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:55 pm

Blind praise is a destructive force, allowing people to become complacent.

Why do I feel like this sentence has religion splattered all over it?

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:09 pm

It wasn't intentional!

Cirindil Atarion · Post by **Cirindil Atarion** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:59 pm

I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to negate the perfectly valid points presented in this critique. To be sure, I have no such intent! I think that there is much room for improvement in this game, and I believe rational criticisms are the way to go.

The thing is though that I have played Ultima Online in the past, and in my opinion it is quite different from illarion in concept. Illarion I have found is in a unique genre that is not at all common.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:10 pm

Cirindil Atarion wrote: label me as naive, but I really believe the possibilities for roleplaying here are endless.

Actually, I think the possibilites for roleplaying are pretty limited. To get something compelling and enjoyable across, you must:

1.) Have everybody be willing to play along with you, and not corrupt your flow of roleplaying.
2.) Have technical or GM backing for the really good stuff, because nobody seems to take player only things seriously.

3.) Give the player motivation to care about what's going on.

Arien Edhel · Post by **Arien Edhel** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:22 pm

Bloodhearte wrote: Actually, I think the possibilites for roleplaying are pretty limited.

Is it??
Just use your fantasy.