F12
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:32 am
Could it be implemented that f12 only shows people's numbers within maybe 4-5 squares of you? Ambushes are terribly hard when you hide in the forest and sombody just pushes f12, hey there he is!
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Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:33 am
good rp should solve this. If someone spots you behind a tree, REPORT THEM!
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:29 am
Yeah I find this pretty stupid too. People can see you and tell who you are when you are hiding...
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:39 am
You cannot simply report everyone and anyone you suspect has found the location of your character by pressing f12. There are technical limitations to the game, such as the inability to actually hear a person's boots on the dried grass, or their breathing, or their clanging armor etc. as one would in person, unless they actually emote such a sound, and as you know this rarely happens, especially in an ambush situation. If someone has heightened senses, i.e. a stereotypical elf, they would have a good chance of detecting an otherwise unseen assailant by means other than sight (hearing, smell, etc.). The f12 command could be used to add to RP in these cases, but it would have to be rped extremely well. As the command was not meant to be used in such a fashion, or so I assume, it still may not even be permissible, but as you can see there are a few cases where it could be explained. I do agree that using f12 for the sole purpose of locating hidden characters is not always the best way to RP, but for some characters it can be understandable in some cases, not all. For some though, such as someone who has incredibly low perception, this would be an inexcusable tactic.
This is just my opinion anyway, if you disagree, please explain why.
This is just my opinion anyway, if you disagree, please explain why.
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:52 am
#1 rule: Never trust the players.
It won't matter if they use it for rp or not, just like people who look at the
"who's online" thing on the front page to know when to log on and hunt somebody. I think that should be taken off too.
It won't matter if they use it for rp or not, just like people who look at the
"who's online" thing on the front page to know when to log on and hunt somebody. I think that should be taken off too.
Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:01 am
I dont think that should be taken off... I like it. Though i do look at it, I dont use it for role playing.
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:53 pm
I understand your grievance regarding the misuse of the server status portion of the website, but you are forgetting one important fact of illarion. It is a game world, and when a character is logged out of the game they are no longer physically present in illarion. Search as much as you like but you cannot find the one you seek. Now, I completely agree with your argument when looked at for its face value, but if you think more deeply on the matter you will come to see that if the character that is being sought is logged out, they are in fact still present in illarion but only in a RP sense. They don't just disappear from the world, they continue to exist and carry on with their normal behavior, they must, or the world would make no sense.Gro'bul wrote:It won't matter if they use it for rp or not, just like people who look at the "who's online" thing on the front page to know when to log on and hunt somebody. I think that should be taken off too.
In this light, you will also see that the character that is seeking is also carrying on a life while offline, and in this case it can be assumed that the character may in fact still be carrying on the search for the character being sought while both are offline. Thus, the searcher is not only searching while the one being sought is online, but at other times as well, in theory. With this view, it allows the searcher time to roleplay and interact with other people whom he is not hunting while the one being hunted is offline, allowing for planning on how to capture such a criminal, or other normal daily life occurrences. That is one reason why I believe your recommendation for removal of the server status option should be ignored by the staff. True, the character should still roleplay his search for the character being sought while the criminal is offline in some cases, to add realism, but they should not be forced to waste their RL time in a hopeless search because the one they seek has magically vanished from the entire world. In the same way though, the criminal should roleplay their evasion of the suitor while they are offline as well, in some cases.
That is why the server status option can be an aid to roleplaying, it allows for the players of characters to maximize their characters roleplaying experiences within the game with the time they are able to play. Of course it has been misused in the past and will continue to be in the future by some, but you cannot punish the majority who use the option to aid their roleplaying for the actions of the minority who use it to diminish the level of roleplaying. What should be removed are not the options available to the good roleplayers, but rather, the ability to play from the bad roleplayers.
This comes back to the same type of scenario in which the town guard must be imagined at all gates by those entering the city even though the characters of the roleplayed town guards are offline. It is about roleplaying a realistic world in a fantasy setting. Too many people just fall back on the excuse that their character is asleep while they are logged out, as it pertains to reasonable amounts of time, this makes little to no sense in the majority of the cases. You have to allow for the possibility for them to remain in their own life, yet out of respect for the characters of other players, they can only be encountered while on-line so as not to take advantage of offline player’s characters, making it impossible to murder an offline character without their player’s consent, for example. Not that it needs to be said, but I had to diffuse future arguments based on blatantly obvious points.
There are other uses for both the f12 and server status window that have not been mention, such as the f12 button being needed at the present time to identify those in close proximity to you who are not speaking. It would make no sense to not be able to recognize your close friends, which is what would happen if the f12 function were removed, because the avatar of every similar character is identical at this time. If you wanted to limit its use, then a possible restriction on its zone of influence could be instituted based on the characters perception. If they cannot see who is around them, or hear them, they shouldn’t know who they are, but that would require too much programming at this time I would assume, and a better system would be better suited to that purpose in any case. So, not feasible, I would guess.
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:13 pm
Why do you always type so much? Anyway, why do give an excuse to everyone? They could just ask people who are logged in around town if they are searching for somebody who is logged in, but they shouldn't take it apon themselves to ask for individuals they haven't the faintest clue are around. Example: Hello good sir, have you seen any Evergreen Halflings or Grey Rose members about? vs Hello good sir, have you seen Crosis or Badmosche?
Using it to the point where you might roleplay some "person" on the street telling you there was a man on the street in armor and had a Grey Rose emblem is fine with me, but accually automatically knowing the names is really about impossible.
The thing about it is though, your not supposed to mix IC with OOC, so it really shouldn't be used for any purpose.
As for the f12 range = perception, I think its a good idea and I doubt it isn't feasable to implement. I think it would help encourage more tactical roleplaying, such as sending out scouts with good perception in the area to report back, basically warring more realisticly.
Using it to the point where you might roleplay some "person" on the street telling you there was a man on the street in armor and had a Grey Rose emblem is fine with me, but accually automatically knowing the names is really about impossible.
The thing about it is though, your not supposed to mix IC with OOC, so it really shouldn't be used for any purpose.
As for the f12 range = perception, I think its a good idea and I doubt it isn't feasable to implement. I think it would help encourage more tactical roleplaying, such as sending out scouts with good perception in the area to report back, basically warring more realisticly.
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:21 pm
I agree that they should rp the search as you stated. That only makes sense. As for mixing ooc and ic information by finding out who is online, I don't quite think that is the case here because the character would always exist in illarion, even when logged out, therefore finding out if the player of the character is able to interact isn't mixing the ooc/ic information as such, it is just telling the player of the first character that they can act in their role of hunter. It isn't providing the character with information that they would not otherwise know, because they do know that the character is alive in the world no matter the on-line status.Gro'bul wrote:They could just ask people who are logged in around town if they are searching for somebody who is logged in, but they shouldn't take it apon themselves to ask for individuals they haven't the faintest clue are around. Example: Hello good sir, have you seen any Evergreen Halflings or Grey Rose members about? vs Hello good sir, have you seen Crosis or Badmosche?
The thing about it is though, your not supposed to mix IC with OOC, so it really shouldn't be used for any purpose.
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:50 pm
If it isn't providing the character with any information, then it isn't of any use right? It is mixing ooc with ic, because when people log out they are generally "sleeping" or "resting", therefore telling them when the character is "awake" and moving around, which they could find out by other characters in game.Nyntar Beliothiel wrote:
I agree that they should rp the search as you stated. That only makes sense. As for mixing ooc and ic information by finding out who is online, I don't quite think that is the case here because the character would always exist in illarion, even when logged out, therefore finding out if the player of the character is able to interact isn't mixing the ooc/ic information as such, it is just telling the player of the first character that they can act in their role of hunter. It isn't providing the character with information that they would not otherwise know, because they do know that the character is alive in the world no matter the on-line status.
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:14 pm
You asked why I write so much, it is to attempt to answer other peoples questions concerning my ideas before they have to ask, which would require me to make yet another post to answer them. Unfortunately I have to do that now even though I explained this in an earlier post, apparently it went unnoticed so I will try again.
It is not reasonable to explain being off-line as the character resting or sleeping in most cases. Why? Time. In most cases a player will have a window of time during their day in which they may come into illarion, after school until their favorite T.V. show come on at 8 P.M. EST, for a simple example. The rest of the day they are offline. Since the time that passes in illarion is accelerated, as one day passes in the real world, more than a few pass in illarion. If a character were described as sleeping, they would have been asleep for well over a full day and this is unrealistic. If they are resting they are awake and can be found.
What makes more sense is if the characters continue to go about their normal lives while off-line. Washing their clothes, obeying the call of nature, etc. Things that are of no concern to the world around them but must be done to survive if this were a real world, things that nobody wants to RP on a regular basis. Sleeping as well, of course.
If the player has no way of knowing if another character is on-line, they will have no idea of when a convenient time for both players is for them to partake in a roleplayed action. It is to the mutual benefit of both players in the situation you mentioned to be informed of each other’s presence. If the guard is after a criminal and has no way of knowing if they are online or not, and must still seek them out, they in fact could capture the criminal if the criminal is sleeping, or “sleeping”. They could get a companion of the criminal drunk and have them lead them back to where the character logged out (is "sleeping"). There, they could clamp the criminal in irons and march them off to prison, where the player would log in to find themselves in prison and would have missed out on the entire roleplay or had any possibility to defend himself.
On the other hand, if the off-line character is to be assumed to still be awake, they could be actively hiding once the hint of danger approached. Thus evading capture while offline. Since they are active while offline (It would make no sense at all to have the guard tromping through the forest in search of someone they could find since the island is small and the entire physical world could be covered by a search party in little time and yet find nothing each and every search.) then it must be assumed that the guard is also active while offline and could have been searching for the offline character in these times too, with no luck. Respect for each other’s characters is obvious here, knowing if they are on-line is paramount to the preservation of this respect.
The characters are always in illarion. The players cannot always be in illarion, nor can they be "sleeping" the entire time they are offline. They have to be active at some point to be realistic. The server status allows the player to know when it is possible to roleplay with the player of another character. Without it, it may come to pass where players are forced to roleplay with the imagined image of the other character for lack of another option. Throwing "sleeping" criminals in prison after a long and drawn out roleplayed search even though the second player remained offline. This is obviously unfair to the second player, and they should be allowed to interact in the roleplay.
In summation, the server status is helpful to know when it is possible to interact with different characters within the game, for if it were a real life world these characters would always be there and always be available to interact with, but since it is a game, they are not and this information is essential to the players, not the characters. It is not bad roleplay for the player to know it is possible to interact with character x , they are not required to do so, but it is an option. It would be bad roleplay to drop what they were doing when they noticed player x came online just to charge off into the woods to catch them with no explanation as to their change of mood.
It is not reasonable to explain being off-line as the character resting or sleeping in most cases. Why? Time. In most cases a player will have a window of time during their day in which they may come into illarion, after school until their favorite T.V. show come on at 8 P.M. EST, for a simple example. The rest of the day they are offline. Since the time that passes in illarion is accelerated, as one day passes in the real world, more than a few pass in illarion. If a character were described as sleeping, they would have been asleep for well over a full day and this is unrealistic. If they are resting they are awake and can be found.
What makes more sense is if the characters continue to go about their normal lives while off-line. Washing their clothes, obeying the call of nature, etc. Things that are of no concern to the world around them but must be done to survive if this were a real world, things that nobody wants to RP on a regular basis. Sleeping as well, of course.
If the player has no way of knowing if another character is on-line, they will have no idea of when a convenient time for both players is for them to partake in a roleplayed action. It is to the mutual benefit of both players in the situation you mentioned to be informed of each other’s presence. If the guard is after a criminal and has no way of knowing if they are online or not, and must still seek them out, they in fact could capture the criminal if the criminal is sleeping, or “sleeping”. They could get a companion of the criminal drunk and have them lead them back to where the character logged out (is "sleeping"). There, they could clamp the criminal in irons and march them off to prison, where the player would log in to find themselves in prison and would have missed out on the entire roleplay or had any possibility to defend himself.
On the other hand, if the off-line character is to be assumed to still be awake, they could be actively hiding once the hint of danger approached. Thus evading capture while offline. Since they are active while offline (It would make no sense at all to have the guard tromping through the forest in search of someone they could find since the island is small and the entire physical world could be covered by a search party in little time and yet find nothing each and every search.) then it must be assumed that the guard is also active while offline and could have been searching for the offline character in these times too, with no luck. Respect for each other’s characters is obvious here, knowing if they are on-line is paramount to the preservation of this respect.
The characters are always in illarion. The players cannot always be in illarion, nor can they be "sleeping" the entire time they are offline. They have to be active at some point to be realistic. The server status allows the player to know when it is possible to roleplay with the player of another character. Without it, it may come to pass where players are forced to roleplay with the imagined image of the other character for lack of another option. Throwing "sleeping" criminals in prison after a long and drawn out roleplayed search even though the second player remained offline. This is obviously unfair to the second player, and they should be allowed to interact in the roleplay.
In summation, the server status is helpful to know when it is possible to interact with different characters within the game, for if it were a real life world these characters would always be there and always be available to interact with, but since it is a game, they are not and this information is essential to the players, not the characters. It is not bad roleplay for the player to know it is possible to interact with character x , they are not required to do so, but it is an option. It would be bad roleplay to drop what they were doing when they noticed player x came online just to charge off into the woods to catch them with no explanation as to their change of mood.
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:52 pm
But your character can't hop onto his desktop and look on the Illarion homepage, and its not the players interacting with characters, its the player's character interacting with other characters.Nyntar Beliothiel wrote: In summation, the server status is helpful to know when it is possible to interact with different characters within the game.
MY POINT: It doesn't matter, mixing ooc with ic is forbidden. "making up" for the holes in the technical system by breaking rules (even if it makes sense) should not be allowed.
Using your reasoning we should be able to roleplay trading between our characters. You log-in, drop the goods, log out, log in, pick up goods drop money, log out, log in, pick up money, continue playing. Unfortunately this would be abused, excuses would be easily made up.
Rules are rules.
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:34 am
You have obviously misunderstood my words if you think that they in some way endorse or support trading between characters, Gro'bul. I can't imagine where you would come up with that. I haven't presented any information that cannot be considered as fact, or an explanation of a fact. Even if you can distort my words in some demented way, the notion you brought up would still be invalid considering that character trading is itself a separate rule all together from mixing OOC and IC information. Even if it made perfectly reasonable sense, it is still forbidden, in its own rule, no matter how realistic it is or isn’t. Don't try to evade the obvious truth by mentioning some unrelated and already forbidden tangent.
Characters are always in the land of illarion, no matter their on-line status, unless they are away on another rped journey. They don't magically disappear into thin air when logged out.
If you can find some way to prove how the server status portion of the web site affects the location of a character in illarion, I would like to know. It does not, it only lets the player of character x know that there are possibilities to roleplay with characters y, z, a, b and c if they wish to do so. Even if they can, they are not forced to.
Under normal circumstances, or in more simple terms, if illarion were a real island, character x would have the possibility to interact with every inhabitant on the island at the time they chose. However, since it is a game it requires the second character to be online in order to interact. Therefore, it is incredibly useful to know who is online so as to save the trouble of walking down the street asking, "Is character y in town?" "Sleeping." "Character z?" "Sleeping."......."Character yyxbcd^3?" "They're sleeping too." “Why can’t I find them to wake them up?” “Uhhhhh...they uhhhh...sleep way out in the woods with a magic cloak of invisibility, yeah, all of them.” Of course you may say to roleplay with this person you are asking questions to, but really, how often do you wake up and walk down the street and just start chatting with the first stranger you find, especially if you have it in mind to speak with one person or group of people in particular? Not often, you seek out your group of friends, which you know to exist. The server status allows you to know if you have the possibility of encountering a certain character or not, it doesn’t push you to them. If there is no possibility, then time could be spent doing something more useful than walking all over the island in a fruitless search for yet another invisible sleeping friend, unless of course your character would do that anyway.
The characters know that all other characters exist on the land and don't vanish, thus almost any character could be sought out and spoken to if it were a real world, no matter if they were sleeping or not, they would just wake them up. So if the player knows which characters are able to be spoken to it is not against any rule. If I know that you are online, that doesn't change a thing. If I suddenly run through the streets shouting "Gro'bul is online, let's bash him good!" then yes, this is a definite violation. On the other hand, if I know that you are online and I have been seeking you for a certain amount of time, it is not unreasonable to have the character then continue the search, if rped properly, mind you!!!, not dropping everything that second and running off to find you, but knowing that sometime in the near future, it would be possible to search for you and possibly find you if that is what my character hand in mind, which would be the case at all times on a real island.
This is about mutual respect for the roles of other characters, Gro'bul. You have only mention this aspect of the game in terms of being chased, what about other options? What if character A has a long-standing friendship with character B and wishes to talk with them? In a normal world, character A would walk over to where character B lived or spent their time normally and wait for them, but in illarion that isn't possible. They have to be online to chat. So, when they are online it is nice to know so you can get around those unrealistic moments and actually roleplay with your time online instead of stammering through countless excuses as to why character B has vanished from the island for the ten thousandth time, or tracing through every corner of the world and never finding a trace of the drunken dwarf that just stumbled out of the tavern and should be snoring loud enough to bring down a mountain.
This is a roleplaying game, and if you are going to immerse yourself in your own role then you have, or at least should have, spent hours developing your character over time. This can be said for every character on the island, so in order to preserve this investment of time you have to respect the characters around you and the time that went into them. To do this you have to ensure that most encounters with another character allow them to act for themselves, and not to be acted for by others. If in your example, a character is running from the law, they will never magically disappear when offline. They could be found and put in prison while “sleeping”. The server status lets the guards know when it is possible to interact with this second character in a fair way, otherwise they will be forced to trek through the woods and throw the sleeping character in prison for a lack of other ways to find them, due to global time differences and such not permitting most guards to be online at the same time as the criminals they seek, making capturing other characters difficult enough as it is with the server status option. It is a benefit to both characters, and still realistic since in a normal world the search could be conducted and possibly concluded at any time.
Anyway, I am done debating with you because I feel as though I have made my point more than once and you still fail to listen. If you don’t agree with me, fine, but I have outlined my view on the topic and cited numerous examples to back up my claims which I believe to be true. If you can do the same for your point of view, which requires more than saying it is breaking a rule, but describing exactly how and why and maybe even throwing in an example for the sake of argument, I may come back to debate further, but since you have yet to do so I have a feeling I will just watch the topic sink to the depths of the forums as I can see no reason for the request to be taken into serious consideration.
Characters are always in the land of illarion, no matter their on-line status, unless they are away on another rped journey. They don't magically disappear into thin air when logged out.
If you can find some way to prove how the server status portion of the web site affects the location of a character in illarion, I would like to know. It does not, it only lets the player of character x know that there are possibilities to roleplay with characters y, z, a, b and c if they wish to do so. Even if they can, they are not forced to.
Under normal circumstances, or in more simple terms, if illarion were a real island, character x would have the possibility to interact with every inhabitant on the island at the time they chose. However, since it is a game it requires the second character to be online in order to interact. Therefore, it is incredibly useful to know who is online so as to save the trouble of walking down the street asking, "Is character y in town?" "Sleeping." "Character z?" "Sleeping."......."Character yyxbcd^3?" "They're sleeping too." “Why can’t I find them to wake them up?” “Uhhhhh...they uhhhh...sleep way out in the woods with a magic cloak of invisibility, yeah, all of them.” Of course you may say to roleplay with this person you are asking questions to, but really, how often do you wake up and walk down the street and just start chatting with the first stranger you find, especially if you have it in mind to speak with one person or group of people in particular? Not often, you seek out your group of friends, which you know to exist. The server status allows you to know if you have the possibility of encountering a certain character or not, it doesn’t push you to them. If there is no possibility, then time could be spent doing something more useful than walking all over the island in a fruitless search for yet another invisible sleeping friend, unless of course your character would do that anyway.
The characters know that all other characters exist on the land and don't vanish, thus almost any character could be sought out and spoken to if it were a real world, no matter if they were sleeping or not, they would just wake them up. So if the player knows which characters are able to be spoken to it is not against any rule. If I know that you are online, that doesn't change a thing. If I suddenly run through the streets shouting "Gro'bul is online, let's bash him good!" then yes, this is a definite violation. On the other hand, if I know that you are online and I have been seeking you for a certain amount of time, it is not unreasonable to have the character then continue the search, if rped properly, mind you!!!, not dropping everything that second and running off to find you, but knowing that sometime in the near future, it would be possible to search for you and possibly find you if that is what my character hand in mind, which would be the case at all times on a real island.
This is about mutual respect for the roles of other characters, Gro'bul. You have only mention this aspect of the game in terms of being chased, what about other options? What if character A has a long-standing friendship with character B and wishes to talk with them? In a normal world, character A would walk over to where character B lived or spent their time normally and wait for them, but in illarion that isn't possible. They have to be online to chat. So, when they are online it is nice to know so you can get around those unrealistic moments and actually roleplay with your time online instead of stammering through countless excuses as to why character B has vanished from the island for the ten thousandth time, or tracing through every corner of the world and never finding a trace of the drunken dwarf that just stumbled out of the tavern and should be snoring loud enough to bring down a mountain.
This is a roleplaying game, and if you are going to immerse yourself in your own role then you have, or at least should have, spent hours developing your character over time. This can be said for every character on the island, so in order to preserve this investment of time you have to respect the characters around you and the time that went into them. To do this you have to ensure that most encounters with another character allow them to act for themselves, and not to be acted for by others. If in your example, a character is running from the law, they will never magically disappear when offline. They could be found and put in prison while “sleeping”. The server status lets the guards know when it is possible to interact with this second character in a fair way, otherwise they will be forced to trek through the woods and throw the sleeping character in prison for a lack of other ways to find them, due to global time differences and such not permitting most guards to be online at the same time as the criminals they seek, making capturing other characters difficult enough as it is with the server status option. It is a benefit to both characters, and still realistic since in a normal world the search could be conducted and possibly concluded at any time.
Anyway, I am done debating with you because I feel as though I have made my point more than once and you still fail to listen. If you don’t agree with me, fine, but I have outlined my view on the topic and cited numerous examples to back up my claims which I believe to be true. If you can do the same for your point of view, which requires more than saying it is breaking a rule, but describing exactly how and why and maybe even throwing in an example for the sake of argument, I may come back to debate further, but since you have yet to do so I have a feeling I will just watch the topic sink to the depths of the forums as I can see no reason for the request to be taken into serious consideration.
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:00 am
Maybe if you stopped with these presumptuously pretentious statements, and just got to the point, it might be more clear.
As I said, if you and another player wish to roleplay together, there are many other ways to contact that player and do so, just like you plan to meet someone at a certain time in real life.
You'd be surprised to know that wanted criminal characters have been thrown in jail while logged out in town. Since you talk about using the list for player-player interaction, why doesn't the player who's character is chasing this player's character send an ooc message asking when he will be online so that they can play their roles without searching in vain? That would be most efficient for most players, not to mention save alot of time waiting for the player to log on.
It can also be used to avoid unwanted contact with the ones seeking the character.
As I said, if you and another player wish to roleplay together, there are many other ways to contact that player and do so, just like you plan to meet someone at a certain time in real life.
Nyntar Beliotheil wrote:Even if it made perfectly reasonable sense, it is still forbidden, in its own rule, no matter how realistic it is or isn’t.
Your character doesn't have a computer, therefore CANNOT use the information provided on the online players list for whatever reason.http://illarion.org/illarion/us_rules.php#12 wrote:1. Basic rule Illarion promotes role play.
You'd be surprised to know that wanted criminal characters have been thrown in jail while logged out in town. Since you talk about using the list for player-player interaction, why doesn't the player who's character is chasing this player's character send an ooc message asking when he will be online so that they can play their roles without searching in vain? That would be most efficient for most players, not to mention save alot of time waiting for the player to log on.
It can also be used to avoid unwanted contact with the ones seeking the character.
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:18 am
I've been yelled at for being too wordy before, and I still say Nyntar is way too wordy. I want to be granted a position as moderator so I can cut the fat from Nyntar's posts.
Answering everyone's questions is one thing, but your paragraphs are filled with fat, repeats, and an incredible amount of pretense. Modern writers tend to prize precise cuts with the pen, rather than bulky war machines, if you understand.
Am I the only one who thinks he writes like Mojo Jojo?
Answering everyone's questions is one thing, but your paragraphs are filled with fat, repeats, and an incredible amount of pretense. Modern writers tend to prize precise cuts with the pen, rather than bulky war machines, if you understand.
Am I the only one who thinks he writes like Mojo Jojo?
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:53 am
Your character also has no icq, msn, email or other forms of contacting. After your definition it is also mixing up ic and ooc.Gro'bul wrote:As I said, if you and another player wish to roleplay together, there are many other ways to contact that player and do so, just like you plan to meet someone at a certain time in real life.
Than let's remove this, if it is senseless. If you had read more carefully what Nyntar wrote and explained, you would have understood, that there is a true roleplay reason to use this list.Gro'bul wrote:Your character doesn't have a computer, therefore CANNOT use the information provided on the online players list for whatever reason.
This is technically impossible by player chars. Trust me, I have a key to the jail and know how it works.Gro'bul wrote:You'd be surprised to know that wanted criminal characters have been thrown in jail while logged out in town.
Maybe GM could do this, but not playerchars. If GMs will do this, it is an ooc-action and not ingame.
This is by the definition given by you also ooc information mixed into ic-action and would be nearly the same as to look on the online-list.Gro'bul wrote:Since you talk about using the list for player-player interaction, why doesn't the player who's character is chasing this player's character send an ooc message asking when he will be online so that they can play their roles without searching in vain?
And most criminals didn't want to be catched, so they wouldn't answer such a request.
Your post is really unnecessary in this topic and I would consider it as spam and would delete it in this topic if I am moderator. Nyntar writes much, but nothing senseless. He gives logic arguements and if people tend to read more carefully, they will understand better. His posts on the boards (not only here) are mostly really good and worth to read through their longiness.Moskher Heszche wrote: ... I want to be granted a position as moderator so I can cut the fat from Nyntar's posts. ...
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:54 am
The gm's have already stated that when characters are logged out they are still in Illarion, and when you log out in the middle of town when there is a search party after you, your going to be caught "hiding in a corner" I suppose. I cannot remember who it was but someone was thrown into jail when they were logged out. I think maybe it was Arkadia Misella.
With it removed, the hunter and the hunted have more of a chance of catching eachother offguard and in the act. There are plenty of ways to arrange meetings IC, even if by means of ooc devices(ex. forum). Just because your talking to another player over ICQ doesn't mean you can't roleplay your two characters talking, and telling another player when you will be online with a character isn't mixing ooc with ic, because your character shouldn't get any information. The motivation for looking for this other person should be for IC reasons, such as you need to buy something from him, or plan a building or auction ect.
With it removed, the hunter and the hunted have more of a chance of catching eachother offguard and in the act. There are plenty of ways to arrange meetings IC, even if by means of ooc devices(ex. forum). Just because your talking to another player over ICQ doesn't mean you can't roleplay your two characters talking, and telling another player when you will be online with a character isn't mixing ooc with ic, because your character shouldn't get any information. The motivation for looking for this other person should be for IC reasons, such as you need to buy something from him, or plan a building or auction ect.
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:56 pm
It was not me. I was jailed while no one else was even on my screen...and I was falsely imprisoned by a gm and argued with him for about 10 minutes without ever knowing he was a gm or that the conversation he was having was OOC. Plus I've landed in jail a couple times before...but hey, whose counting anymore.
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:02 pm
Allow me to try a different view on the matter with the same content...
Based on the online list:
What the player knows: Players x, y and z are online.
What the character knows: Nothing.
What the player knows: Someone to interact with is available.
What the character knows: Nothing.
What the player knows: There is a pending role with the recently online person I could continue should my character encounter the other person's character without altering the current role.
What the character knows: Nothing.
...
What the character can do with the information: Nothing.
What the player can do with the information:
-Better utilization of the online time by knowing which chance encounters are possible between characters, avoiding losses on precious real life time.
-No meaningless searches that lead to easy boredom because of the online:visible, offline:invisible technical ooc situation.
-Player knowledge of the availability of possible friends, which leads to better entertainment.
-Greater possibility of the development of a more complex roleplay.
As I can see, and as you said yourself, Gro'bul, the online list adds nothing to the characters. On the other hand, it appears that the players have a lot to win with it. So why take off something so useful to the roleplayers in the most logical meaning of the word? Because some players use it in a bad way? Was it for that, at least half the things we know in the real world should be thrown into flames.
Based on the online list:
What the player knows: Players x, y and z are online.
What the character knows: Nothing.
What the player knows: Someone to interact with is available.
What the character knows: Nothing.
What the player knows: There is a pending role with the recently online person I could continue should my character encounter the other person's character without altering the current role.
What the character knows: Nothing.
...
What the character can do with the information: Nothing.
What the player can do with the information:
-Better utilization of the online time by knowing which chance encounters are possible between characters, avoiding losses on precious real life time.
-No meaningless searches that lead to easy boredom because of the online:visible, offline:invisible technical ooc situation.
-Player knowledge of the availability of possible friends, which leads to better entertainment.
-Greater possibility of the development of a more complex roleplay.
As I can see, and as you said yourself, Gro'bul, the online list adds nothing to the characters. On the other hand, it appears that the players have a lot to win with it. So why take off something so useful to the roleplayers in the most logical meaning of the word? Because some players use it in a bad way? Was it for that, at least half the things we know in the real world should be thrown into flames.
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:49 pm
Yes, some players use it in a bad way. How many rights in the real world do you not have because just a few bad people abused it? People have their bags inspected very carefully at airports. Why? Some people decided to abuse the system.Kalypse wrote:Because some players use it in a bad way? Was it for that, at least half the things we know in the real world should be thrown into flames
If two players desire to roleplay together, there are many other means available as I have stated, well I"m not even going to count. If you can access the homepage, you can access the forum.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:00 am
Well, when you play a bad character lik my orc, people do look on the server list. One such person was brendan mason, tho i am not certain, i am almost positive he looked on the server list to find out who killed his character. This is why the server list should be simple taken away... Now i got jailed for 10 hours for a murder my orc did, but he was convicted by means ooc...
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:48 am
Maybe, Grant, he wanted to know your character name and number because it could be counted as a PK act?
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:07 pm
That's not my point, Gro'bul, but I'm not entering real life matters now since I was just giving an example, although with your logic, no bags would be allowed in airports instead of them just being checked. You mentioned the forums as a way of knowing when a player is online, but it has the same problems as the other messengers, plus the reason Aragon already covered.
When I said 'friends' I meant people you know in the game. If you know the numbers of every single soul you interact with, good for you, but I doubt that's the case for most people. Some people don't even use messengers and have absolutely no patience to refresh the forums every once in a while because it expired, which by the way is my case, or they are currently in the game. As for private messages... what are you talking about?
As far as I'm concerned, the game is IN the game, not out of it. I do not have the patience to read every single post in this forum especially because most are spam. I just read this one because I know someone who has the patience for it. The way I see it, the advantage of player communication concerning the game is just to create more complex roles without crossing the limits of another player's role, which by the way is something I only see happening in a few instances. Scheduling meetings by private messages in real life time is bad because only those few people would then know what is going on, and it would make for only small groups of roleplaying parties who are always together. This is terrible for the game because there would be 1,000 separate groups and no interaction between them.
The online list is an easy way to choose what you can do with your character in a short time. I see only players who play bad characters complaining about it right now. I can understand that playing a bad character is hard because I tried it myself once, even though it wasn't a war driven type of character, but it isn't impossible. I've been in this game for quite a while and I've seen many things being cut off because 'some people are abusing it'. The online list is not the problem, it's the people who use it incorrectly. If someone scratches your finger, you don't cut off your arm to fix it. I would get into this matter, but there were a number of other threads in this forum where Nyntar tried to explain but only a few understood. Anyway, I can see now why he gave up on this post. Let the staff decide what to do. I'm against it being removed.
When I said 'friends' I meant people you know in the game. If you know the numbers of every single soul you interact with, good for you, but I doubt that's the case for most people. Some people don't even use messengers and have absolutely no patience to refresh the forums every once in a while because it expired, which by the way is my case, or they are currently in the game. As for private messages... what are you talking about?
As far as I'm concerned, the game is IN the game, not out of it. I do not have the patience to read every single post in this forum especially because most are spam. I just read this one because I know someone who has the patience for it. The way I see it, the advantage of player communication concerning the game is just to create more complex roles without crossing the limits of another player's role, which by the way is something I only see happening in a few instances. Scheduling meetings by private messages in real life time is bad because only those few people would then know what is going on, and it would make for only small groups of roleplaying parties who are always together. This is terrible for the game because there would be 1,000 separate groups and no interaction between them.
The online list is an easy way to choose what you can do with your character in a short time. I see only players who play bad characters complaining about it right now. I can understand that playing a bad character is hard because I tried it myself once, even though it wasn't a war driven type of character, but it isn't impossible. I've been in this game for quite a while and I've seen many things being cut off because 'some people are abusing it'. The online list is not the problem, it's the people who use it incorrectly. If someone scratches your finger, you don't cut off your arm to fix it. I would get into this matter, but there were a number of other threads in this forum where Nyntar tried to explain but only a few understood. Anyway, I can see now why he gave up on this post. Let the staff decide what to do. I'm against it being removed.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:39 pm
No we roleplayed the whole thing, and he had drawn his sword showing he was willing to fight.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:26 pm
Molbo told me what the name of the orc was. It was all done above board and entirely IC. The reason I drew my sword was so I could avoid the whole:
"brendan mason can't Rp" debacle, that has now surfaced on the test board. Next time you accuse me of something I haven't done, don't do it publicly, just report me, like a person who isn't seeking attention.
Nearly at the big 2000, eh Grant...just accuse a few more people and you'll be there.
"brendan mason can't Rp" debacle, that has now surfaced on the test board. Next time you accuse me of something I haven't done, don't do it publicly, just report me, like a person who isn't seeking attention.
Nearly at the big 2000, eh Grant...just accuse a few more people and you'll be there.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:34 pm
Well Grant, before you start to accuse other players of looking on the who is online list, i would really like an explanation, how you know that Shukks name is Shaah. (Btw. thats slightly wrong, but oh well) From her first day on the island she always referred to herself as Shukk. Her Board account is called Shukk. And she always signs with Shukk. So the only way to come to know this is what OOC mean? Congrats, yes, its the who is online list.
If i would be nasty i would also ask, how it comes, that as soon as a movement guy gets in trouble, all movement chars that are currently online, flock to the place.
But do i start to make wild assumptions and accuse my fellow players in the public, when something seems strange to me?
I think the introduction system and the who is online list are quite allright, as they are. Most players have a look at the list, to see, if it is worth the time to go online. If there are people, they like to interact with, they decide to go online, if not, most look for another occupation. As Kalypse described, a good RPer would differentiate between OOC and IC knowledge and so the list is only increasing the players fun and has no IC consequence either.
What puzzles me more, than people who misuse that list, is your habit of whining on the OOC boards, everytime your chars "lost" a scene. (by being killed or imprisoned) Its always the others, all of them are bad RPers and have plotted against you with nasty OOC means. Zerbus wanted nothing, but to trick you with a vile plan, to use a misleading #me. Brendan misused the who is online list. I am abusing the keys to the prison, only to bash your poor chars and use the online list to find out your orcs name, who openly stated his name in my chars presence and so on. The thought, that it could be a failure in your own RP doesn´t come to your mind. That your OOC behaviour is very similar to your chars (Whining that all are against you and use unfair methods) is even more annoying.
Finally, once and for all: You as a player do not loose face, if your char gets killed, imprisoned or otherwise humilated. If you cannot accept this fact, i would suggest you do not play games where you have to come along with other players actions. In games like Baldurs Gate, Morrowind etc you can always come out as a winner if you save often enough. In a online-RPG you cannot expect that and will have to live with the fact, that scenes do not end like you wanted them to. And to whine on the boards everytime this happens is only inmature.
If i would be nasty i would also ask, how it comes, that as soon as a movement guy gets in trouble, all movement chars that are currently online, flock to the place.
But do i start to make wild assumptions and accuse my fellow players in the public, when something seems strange to me?
I think the introduction system and the who is online list are quite allright, as they are. Most players have a look at the list, to see, if it is worth the time to go online. If there are people, they like to interact with, they decide to go online, if not, most look for another occupation. As Kalypse described, a good RPer would differentiate between OOC and IC knowledge and so the list is only increasing the players fun and has no IC consequence either.
What puzzles me more, than people who misuse that list, is your habit of whining on the OOC boards, everytime your chars "lost" a scene. (by being killed or imprisoned) Its always the others, all of them are bad RPers and have plotted against you with nasty OOC means. Zerbus wanted nothing, but to trick you with a vile plan, to use a misleading #me. Brendan misused the who is online list. I am abusing the keys to the prison, only to bash your poor chars and use the online list to find out your orcs name, who openly stated his name in my chars presence and so on. The thought, that it could be a failure in your own RP doesn´t come to your mind. That your OOC behaviour is very similar to your chars (Whining that all are against you and use unfair methods) is even more annoying.
Finally, once and for all: You as a player do not loose face, if your char gets killed, imprisoned or otherwise humilated. If you cannot accept this fact, i would suggest you do not play games where you have to come along with other players actions. In games like Baldurs Gate, Morrowind etc you can always come out as a winner if you save often enough. In a online-RPG you cannot expect that and will have to live with the fact, that scenes do not end like you wanted them to. And to whine on the boards everytime this happens is only inmature.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:57 pm
becuase of konstnatin Hagen, kurt knew shukk's name, and he told me.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:00 pm
*clap clap*Hagen von Rabenfeld wrote:What puzzles me more, than people who misuse that list, is your habit of whining on the OOC boards, everytime your chars "lost" a scene. (by being killed or imprisoned) Its always the others, all of them are bad RPers and have plotted against you with nasty OOC means. Zerbus wanted nothing, but to trick you with a vile plan, to use a misleading #me. Brendan misused the who is online list. I am abusing the keys to the prison, only to bash your poor chars and use the online list to find out your orcs name, who openly stated his name in my chars presence and so on. The thought, that it could be a failure in your own RP doesn´t come to your mind. That your OOC behaviour is very similar to your chars (Whining that all are against you and use unfair methods) is even more annoying.
Finally, once and for all: You as a player do not loose face, if your char gets killed, imprisoned or otherwise humilated. If you cannot accept this fact, i would suggest you do not play games where you have to come along with other players actions. In games like Baldurs Gate, Morrowind etc you can always come out as a winner if you save often enough. In a online-RPG you cannot expect that and will have to live with the fact, that scenes do not end like you wanted them to. And to whine on the boards everytime this happens is only inmature.
May I quote you in the future if necessary?
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:07 pm
All I have to add is a short advice:
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:14 pm
Konstantin cant know Shukks real name. She never used it. Read above again. She a l w a y s refers to herself as Shukk. If K used the online list, this is no reason to misuse his ooc knowledge, simply because you didnt use inproper means, but another player.
What i still want to know Grant, is, why everyone talks privately to his fellow players or the GMs if they have a problem with another player but you. You drag it all in the public, everytime your char did not "win". Why is this so? Is that good manners? Besides your accusations are false and mostly consist of nothing but whining, that your fellow players do not seem to accept that your chars are invincible unrevealable and generally those, who SHOULD have won but are tricked with vile OOC means or whatever. Think about your behaviour. Im sick of discussing it over and over again, everytime, your expectations for your glorious chars did come true.
@Caranthir:
Feel free to quote
What i still want to know Grant, is, why everyone talks privately to his fellow players or the GMs if they have a problem with another player but you. You drag it all in the public, everytime your char did not "win". Why is this so? Is that good manners? Besides your accusations are false and mostly consist of nothing but whining, that your fellow players do not seem to accept that your chars are invincible unrevealable and generally those, who SHOULD have won but are tricked with vile OOC means or whatever. Think about your behaviour. Im sick of discussing it over and over again, everytime, your expectations for your glorious chars did come true.
@Caranthir:
Feel free to quote