Parry

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:32 am

It is not right that only a warrior that uses a sword and shield can have the chance to defeat a demon, but a warrior with better skill but using two swords, an axe, and so on cannot. This greatly inhibits roleplay because it makes all warriors "knights" and sword and shield users.

What to do?

I propose that SEPARATE parries be made for different weapons. Parrying with a sword and parrying with a axe and parrying with a fist trained by martial arts are all VERY different.

So for each type of fighting there could be a parry and even one for archers and ranged weapons because it is quite possible to parry with a bow...if a bow can be used to whack the life out of a creature it can be used like a bent staff to deflect blows.

So each fighting style could have its own parry and attack skill which would make all the styles more balanced. Then a two-sword warrior could have the potential to defeat a demon, and there would be a more diverse crowd of warriors.

This is and easy to implement and appropriate proposal because it can be easily implemented by just making a separate parry for each current fighting skill...(more drastic chances can be made later in the future...) Take a look...

Current fighting skills:
Concussion weapons
Slashing weapons
Distance weapons
Proposed matching parries:
Concussion weapons' parry
Slashing weapons' parry
Distance weapons' parry

Basically I have split the current parry that groups all fighting styles under it but actually is mainly a sword/shield parry into unique parries and created a more balanced fighting system.

-Elaralith

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:37 am

good ideas. maybe martial arts could be its own skill? also i think you should be able to use knight gloves/leather gloves as weapons. well elaralith if bows had parry then it would almost defeat the point of having hand to hand, i think bows are fine how they are kind of. also, throwing spears/stars you CAN use a shield

but unfortunately they are not very powerful.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 4:42 am

Parry = the skill to deflect an enemy's attack. I am guessing as long as you are quick enough and you havea brain you should be able to block anything that is at or below your level of skill.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:55 am

If I remember right, the parry skill is combined with weapons allready.
Depending on the weapon, you wear, you have a different parry.
Like your skill is 50, the weapon you use is 10, so your parry with this weapon or shield is 60 (the numbers are only fantasie, I don't know the exact relation between weapons / shields and parry).

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:33 am

Well, there are some problems with this I think...

I understand that a sword currently has some parry, although minimal (from reading other threads about parry).

What you are proposing is to give a sword more parry, but then a warrior with a sword and a shield would have a lot of parry (sword and shield combined).

Maybe, then, have it so you only have the parry of the strongest of the parries of the weapons you have.

For instance, for a warrior fighting there would be 3 parries involved:
1. Warriors Parry (skill)
2. Shield Parry (shield stat)
3. Sword Parry (sword stat)

If we were to take the parry of the greatest parry item, that woudl be fine, the shield, all woudl be well.

But, what if the warrior only had one sword? Wouldn't his parry be less? Or should it only be if the warrior has two items? And what if one is a sword, and one is a gold coin?

What about duel shielding? This would cripple that which would probably be good. What if they have a sword and a dagger? Which are they attacking with and which are they parrying with?

I'm not sure it would work too well.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:43 pm

Yes it does. Each weapon gives a different amount of parry or protection. Even wands add some. Your character will have an initial amount of parry. This is your ability to dodge a blow and is based on dexterity and agility as well as your parry skill. These all work together to determine your base parry ability. When a weapon is used by the character they can then use the weapon to block blows in addition to their ability to jump out of the way of attacks. The character will have added weight to them because of the weapon so their ability to move will be less, but ability to block is increased. This is why a staff or two-handed weapon wouldn’t add the ability to dodge a blow but rather to block the blow and for this reason when the one attacking them is very strong or very fast they will still hit you if you are not using a shield for obvious reasons.

I do not understand why people complain that they can't fight a demon without a shield. A demon is an incredible beast and not for the weekend warriors! You can battle a demon with a two-handed weapon for a few moments but the strength of a demon is going to break through your defenses. If they hit your weapon that you're blocking with their attack will not stop instantly. (Think of deflecting a boulder falling on you from high above when thinking of blocking a blow from a demon. The sword will not deflect the boulder, and if you can’t get out of the way you’re going to be crushed! If you have a shield you will be able to deflect the blow more successfully and spread the impact out over a wider area and thus take less damage). It will overpower you and the force and momentum will carry its attack into you and you will get hurt. If you somehow miss their attack and do not block it or dodge it then of course you're going to be mortally wounded! It's a demon not a sheep hitting you. A demon.

A character’s strength cannot be as much as a demon and therefore a character cannot stand face to face with a demon or similar monsters and block their attacks with only a weapon. They will be greatly over powered and in many cases out maneuvered because of the monsters speed being greater than the warriors.

The purpose of using a shield is not to dodge the attacks of the demon or other attackers but to block them. The force of the blow will be spread out over the length of the shield and hurt much less than a concentrated blow to your body, as you would take if you did not have a shield. You can still battle these hellish monsters with two-handed weapons if you want but you must be wise in your strategies. Attack in groups and take full advantage of your armor as well as those that you are attacking. I will not go into the different advantages of each weapon or armor here because that is something to find out in the game but for each class of armor there is a weapon that is designed to counteract that more than others. There are weapons to attack different defenses and different defenses to counteract different weapons. It's more balanced that most people seem to realize.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:50 pm

Can a warrior who has chosen to master the Discipline of the Fist ever compare to a warrior who uses the commonplace fireswrod/shield combo?
The answer is no. Again, all this does is create no unique warriors...everyone uses a firesword/shield in.

In all realism, a fighter who has trained highly in fist fighting would be able to beat another fighter of a lower skill even if he/she were using a sword and shield. Have you ever seen martial arts masters in RL? Even if you have a gun they can defeat you.

This is what needs to be corrected. A balancing in the fighting system to make all fighting styles have the potential to be powerful.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:14 pm

Hmm . alright this idea is starting to take form.. yes it is a good idea to have different parry but if it is ever implemented then what are we to do with this current parry we have now? and i really do not agree with the distance weapons parry.

Faramier · Post by **Faramier** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:34 pm

Have you ever seen martial arts masters in RL? Even if you have a gun they can defeat you.

I think someones been watching a few too many martial arts movies.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:35 pm

I think someone needs to open their eyes, and see that amazing things happen in RL too outside of movies.

Caranthir the great · Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:41 pm

Ahem, you can't just say that they are able to defeat you if you have a gun, that is mainly up to your skill/swiftness of using it- countering their skill of using their martial arts.
And then there is the thing known as 'luck'

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:15 am

yes too many movies....if you tried to take a gun from a bad guy he would probobly just shoot you in the leg and kick you down, or if you werent a hostage BOOM right in the head, your dead. if you sneak up on them, thats a different story.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:25 am

Get away from RL and Movies:

If you are using Martial Arts in Illarion you would not protect your body with heavy metal armor, mostly just leather or even just clothings.
Now you go into the Demon Cave, because Matrial Arts is as powerful as Swordmanship ....
Thats the end of the Story, i dont want to discirbe the bloody massacre the Deman deals with his huge claws to your unprotected Body.

There are Fighting-Styles that are useless in a Battle in Illarion.

I can imagine a decent effectivity in a PvP-Fight, but not agains a Monster two to three times bigger than you.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 4:33 am

yes but a huge demon wouldnt be able to move that fast, if you were fast enough you could dodge it.

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:26 am

Actually, a martial artist's main advantage is dodging. If someone with a sword goes against a black belt in some martial art, I would put my money on the martial artist, unless the one with a sword was a fencing master, then I still think the martial artist would have the advantage.

This is taken from someone who has studied martial arts although I'm not a black belt (Yellow belt in Tae Kwon Do, Green Belt in Judo, Unbelted in Karate). I would in no means want to go up against a black belt in any of these with a gun/sword/stick. I would get my hind quarters kicked.

And this is the way it shoudl be in the game too, I think. A master martial artist (if they ever exist) should be about par with a master warrior or mage.

But I think it would have to be another set of skills, not just aditions to the warrior skills.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 8:04 am

set of skills? heh, well the martial artist could dodge, but they could not hurt anything very well like a demon, a kick and punch arent going to do much against something that huge.

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:13 pm

Actually, marital artists can do quite a bit of damage.

Poke an eye out... kick in the privates, break a neck, a leg, an arm, etc...

Personally, I can't break boards with my hands (except for very thin ones) but black belts can. I can't break someones arm by just hitting it, but a black belt can.

And in a fantasy world, a martial artist could be even more powerful.

Caranthir the great · Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:15 pm

Well, this is fantasy world, so swordsmen could be even more powerful

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:18 pm

Or less

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:43 pm

But seriously, even if you were a arnold schwazenegger with black belt in karate, you still wouldn't stand a chance against truck-sized demon.
(And If the demons are someday able to do spells, that would make 'dodging' impossible, too) You could beat it's leg all day with only breaking your own arm, perhaps givin it a bruise

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:57 pm

Another little Story, especily for those who doenst gasp the first one:

You are a Master in Matrial Arts, you can Kick, Punch and Jump all the day and it sill looks great.
Now you go out fot the kill.
You pick the fist monster that comes near you.
"Oh great a Zombie! Time for a Warmup."

The Zombie attacks first, with you increadible Dodging Skills you evade his pittyful attack.
Now you grab his arm, *knack* and break it. Wohoo you got him!
Wait a moment ... he is death, he doesnt even feel pain.
Your Attack was useless.
Totaly confuesed you back out, what a pity for you, you dosent see the second attack of the Zombie.
Ouch, that hurts.

Again:
Kicking and Punching Monster is not a very effective way tu HURT them.
Did you ever try to break an arm, that is as long as your body is high?

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:09 am

You're a warrior and you decide to go kill... you wander around and find a zombie, great, a warm up!

You take you sword and run him through! Great!

But it's dead. It doesn't feel it. You don't even see as it breaks your neck.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 2:12 am

or..

You're a warrior and you decide to go kill... you wander around and find a zombie, great, a warm up!

You take you sword and slice his arms and legs off.

The zombie can't hurt you.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:47 am

Totaly confuesed you back out, what a pity for you, you dosent see the second attack of the Zombie

Well that is not a 'master' of martial arts. See, the real martial artist does not punch ... when the time is right it punches.
Plus, martial artists use lots of various weapons, not just hands and feet..

Thereadore · Post by **Thereadore** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 8:10 am

Or, you're a martial artist and you see a zombie, great, a warm up!

So you go to it and tear off it's head by twisting it.

Bei Tian Kensai · Post by **Bei Tian Kensai** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:53 pm

If you were fighting a zombie, you wouldnt try and break its arm..unless you were bound by your set style (like jujutsu or aikido). You would use whatever the situation demands..its a zombie, what stops it stops it simple as that...unless your one of those martial artist whose source of power resides in your huge belly then you should be able to handle the situation as it dictates..

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:36 pm

How did this topic get centered only on martial arts?

Anyway a martial arts expert not only breaks arms, legs, and necks.
They also study pressure points.

They know several places on the body in which they could kill you with one precise blow if the opportunity arrises.
A martial artist in a fantasy world would not only study these pressure points on humans but on various creatures as well.

And they could parry in several ways.
dodging
Zen archery (in Zen archery a martial artist can catch an arrow in flight)
I'm sure there are other ways but I am not a martial arts expert so I don't know what they are.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:06 pm

You all stick to much in the idea of fighting agains normal Person.
As i said, Martial Arts might be helpful in a PvP-Fight.

But dont forget you fight in Illarion against mystic, powerful and unknown creatures from the pits of Moshrams Hells.
It would be funny to look how a Master in Martial Arts stands against a Demon, but he wont stand a chance.

Bei Tian Kensai · Post by **Bei Tian Kensai** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:16 pm

he wont necessarily have to use his hands or legs..if he was trained in using weapons he would stand a very good chance..

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:17 pm

Where is the Point of Matrial Arts when you take a Sword?
That would be again Shwordsmanship.
Also Staffs, that will be Concussion Weapons.
Or Throwing Stars, they are Distance Weapons.