Roleplaying V´s powergaming ZzZzz - The Endless Battle

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Thalan
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Roleplaying V´s powergaming ZzZzz - The Endless Battle

Post by Thalan »

All online Rpg´s have this battle going on...  Roleplaying V´s powergaming. :)

Well here is how i see it work out in Illarion(and i bet 50% wont agree well maybe 99% here).

Many people get frustrated playing on Illarion becouse they cant find info outside and barely inside the game. Then they start asking ALOT of "occ" questions inside game "Should i hold down alt, shift or what" and so on. That offcource ruins the atmosfare a little dont you think?
That and they run around doing foolish things who dosnt realy help them staying in carecter.
My opinion/experience is that if a player knows what to do, and how to do it it leaves alot more space for roleplaying. I mean WHY CANT a player roleplay while knowing how his stat raises and how he should go around raising em.

Second thing is why is it that i see tons of questions on the newbie board being answered with "Log in game and try to figure it out there" IF THE PLAYER WHO POSTED THE QUESTION COULD DO THAT HE WOULDT POST!

I agree that stat talk is annoying and that it should be left outside of game but WHY hide it totaly?

At last i want to say that warriors in the old days tried to train there skills the best way posible. Not doing so would be foolish and maybe even result in a short life. Players in a roleplaying game should offcource try and do the same.
Offcource the lack of the lore skills makes it harder. The dev´s seem to think we cant roleplay while knowing a good sword from a bad *LOL*. They even claim that in the old days people couldnt tell. Offcource they couldnt see some foolish stats(2+6+1) but many COULD tell a good from a bad with there skill in "lore". Us? we cant see the sword in real so WE NEED stats.
A swordsman didnt as the dev said "went out and tryid it" they looked at it first, and if they could they took the best one. Again not doing so would maybe mean death.
Damien
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Roleplaying V´s powergaming ZzZzz

Post by Damien »

New players, before starting, should PERHAPS read the tutorial. After that, they would not have to ask any of these questions.


About the powergaming : It is forbidden in the most online RPGs(and in illarion too), but it cannot really be totally prevented. Measurements against powergaming can, if too hard, become really disturbing.
Inllarion's System is in alpha stage of development. As you know, for example fist fighting is too fast and too exact, and does too much quick damage, this is related to the system. Of course, in real life you would have no chance to hurt an armored person with your fists - even the chance to hit him in "unprotected" places is extremely low, if you are not a martial arts master, and even then you would not be able to hit an armored person that fast and with that much quick damage as you do now in illarion.
Later, there may be some system changes that minimize powergaming, and keep illarion playable at the same time.
At the moment, we can only punish the persons who are powergaming, for example training with needles or such nonsense (no knight EVER trained with a needle !).
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Caranthir the great
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Post by Caranthir the great »

damien , how can you be so sure?
maybe a poor knigth lost hes sword , perhaps? :biggrin:
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Ishans Schatten
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Post by Ishans Schatten »

I think every beginner should read the Tutorial before they start.  And i agree thats this Powergaming is boring and not fair. But thats hard time for newbies many die when the City is under Attack and so they want to be stronger. Sure you can say they shouldnt fight they should stay behinde... . But I think there are a lot people who dont wanna stay back and wait.  They see the other People fight and think WOW i want to kill this demon too.

I dont want defend this Powergaming peolple, i think the most will see after one weak that they have all skills raised to the up to the maximum and think its boring so they leave te game  but I hope the new Client version will help again powergamers

@stats i dont think that it will really help when you see the stats of weapons because some weapons are better again this enemy but not so good again an other typ of enemy(have you ever fight a Skellet with Throwing star ? ;) ). so the stats are variable.

sorry for my bad english but i hope you know what i mean ;)
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Dyluck
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Post by Dyluck »

@:WHY CANT a player roleplay while knowing how his stat raises and how he should go around raising em.

You CAN, but you don't need to. Knowing them will just cause people to talk about these numbers more often and I don't see how knowing your stats will add any roleplay value. How does knowing your stats make roleplay better?

You CAN judge a weapon by looking at it such as comparing a dagger to a warhammer. You can obviously move a dagger more quicky but the warhammer makes a bigger impact, and then of course it also depends on what your opponent uses to block it. If you can't figure something out about a weapon and you don't want to go into an actual fight just to find out, then ASK someone who is expert at weapons. A great blacksmith isn't neccesarily a weapons expert.
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Post by Erdrick »

The only real, good way to rise fighting skills, especially, is by training.
I think you should be lienient on training in this version but by next version
hopefully it can be so skills rise slower when fighting against a friend?
I myself used to train, except with monsters, and maxed out my skills...
Now, the only way to get strong enough to beat hordes of Demons and Beholders
is to train with a fellow knight for long boring sessions.
I think this will be fixed later when we have more monsters to fill in the gaps.
AND to train magic resistance you need to train with friends for hours on end.
I think someone made a big mistake trying to prevent powergaming...
RagingSpirit
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Roleplaying V´s powergaming ZzZzz

Post by RagingSpirit »

There are too many gaps between monsters.  After getting my skills as high as possible off a scorpian, I try to defeat a skeleton with every possible combination (2-handed sword, sword and shield, 2 shields, and bare handed) and I still end up getting killed.  Maybe later after they implement new monsters will people stop powergaming.  I know I wouldn't do it anymore.
Thalan
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Roleplaying V´s powergaming ZzZzz

Post by Thalan »

Ok you all make you points pretty clear, but somehow seem to miss my point.(Maybe it isnt your fouldt hehe). My point from my post could be said in a few words.

Dont create the game being too scared for powergamers. Paranoia in the scribt will ruin the game.

Dont as a player use the term powergaming against every player with a ambition in game.

Stop using "roleplaying" as a excuse for not helping newbies(The tutorial has little value).

And last more info will NOT ruin roleplaying(read my post Dyluck i state how it could make it better... you dont have to agree with me but you missed my point) it WILL make players love the game more becouse players like knowing all there is to know about there favorite game.
Bror
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Post by Bror »

@Thalan: You are playing for a week now. Thanks for the many accusations on the development team without knowing much about the game.

  "Many people get frustrated playing on Illarion becouse they cant find info outside and barely inside the game. Then they start asking ALOT of "occ" questions inside game "Should i hold down alt, shift or what" and so on."

We have a manual and a tutorial that comes with the client. We also have them online on this page. We have a help menu in the game. If people can't read (or don't want to), we can't do anything about that.

  "I mean WHY CANT a player roleplay while knowing how his stat raises and how he should go around raising em."

Its very hard for me to live my real life without knowing the number of my math skill indeed.

 "Second thing is why is it that i see tons of questions on the newbie board being answered with "Log in game and try to figure it out there" IF THE PLAYER WHO POSTED THE QUESTION COULD DO THAT HE WOULDT POST!"

I haven't read that board for quite a while, but it is for questions about how to use the game, how the user interface works, etc. If you have questions, where to find a specific monster or what components are needed to create glass, ask them in game for this is part of roleplaying.

  "I agree that stat talk is annoying and that it should be left outside of game but WHY hide it totaly?"

To play a knight for example, it is enough for me to see the bar graph of my parry skill. This shows the percentage of my skill pretty well. For ME it is enough to know my parry skill is between 45% and 55%. If you need a more accurate number, I agree that the bar graph isn't precise enough.

  "At last i want to say that warriors in the old days tried to train there skills the best way posible. Not doing so would be foolish and maybe even result in a short life. Players in a roleplaying game should offcource try and do the same."

Has anyone of the development team told you not to do so? If so, I apologize for him (since I haven't said it). The rules don't prohibit this and no one has been punished for a sword fight training since today (at least not by me).

   "Offcource the lack of the lore skills makes it harder. The dev´s seem to think we cant roleplay while knowing a good sword from a bad *LOL*. They even claim that in the old days people couldnt tell. Offcource they couldnt see some foolish stats(2+6+1) but many COULD tell a good from a bad with there skill in "lore". Us? we cant see the sword in real so WE NEED stats.
A swordsman didnt as the dev said "went out and tryid it" they looked at it first, and if they could they took the best one. Again not doing so would maybe mean death."

I agree on that. We implied that the player has a little intelligence and judgement to tell that a two handed sword may make greater damage than a one handed sword, which hits harder than a dagger, while the speed of the weapon gets better the other way round. If we stop thinking, that the player behind the character might recognize the differences, we would have to add stats, thats true.
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Dyluck
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Post by Dyluck »

Sorry Thalan but I only see from your post an example of how "easier to understand user interface" helps newbies ask less ooc questions, but I don't see any example of how "knowing stats improve roleplay". You see, we don't want to sacrafice roleplaying atmosphere for the gaming enjoyment of knowing precise numbers. The game was meant to be made so players get the most fun as possible from "roleplaying" not "gaming".


(Edited by Dyluck at 12:42 am on Feb. 6, 2002)
Thalan
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Roleplaying V´s powergaming ZzZzz

Post by Thalan »

Bror i state my points in a very harsh way, so i can see why you seem to take em personaly
and chose to go in a defence position. I see you even think of my posts as list of a accusations.
They are not, i have chosen to post my general opinions about the ALPHA in the belive that they would open a dialog about the subjects. I wouldnt post em just to put the dev team down they are in general doing a great job, and i see alot of good things in Illarion.
So try and think about the things i say(you dont have to agree) insteed of going directly into a defence position where everything i say should be proven wrong, in a manner that dosnt suit a ALPHA admim. Dialog between player and staff is what makes a online rpg good.
Trust me i have plenty of experience in being a staff member(Ultima Online+Mud).
Farlorn
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Post by Farlorn »

Bror indeed thought about your points.
He thought about all of them when he decided to make illarion that way (leave the numbers out), he thought about them dozens of times, when other players brought them on this board and I don't think the decision gets much harder any time... So see his post as a final answer (don't know if it will really be, but there won't be a much different) and if you are interested in this discussion have a look at the old post (mostly at the "proposal board")
Thalan
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Post by Thalan »

Farlorn let him answer for himself he may or may not agree with that. Would be a bit disapointing considering that an alpha automaticly means open dialog, but at least let him answer for himself.
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Post by Damien »

Thalan, do as he said, and READ the old proposals ! Then go around and find what has been realised already in game.
I don't see a defense position in Bror's post. He has explained EXACTLY THESE QUESTIONS a thousand times, they all are still on the older board posts. And the very same proposals come up again and again ( about every two to six weeks ). And i must admit that your proposals sounded a "little" accusing.

I understand your question, there are some things in the games basic information that have not been translated into english yet ( because some of those have already changed from proposals and experience, and the whole thing is a little old ).
But, it would help you much to read some of the older topics.
Thalan
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Roleplaying V´s powergaming ZzZzz

Post by Thalan »

Maybe they where maybe not the importent thing is that i have told you how to consider em, not how you would like to see em ;)
Seing the bad things in words as for in life gets you nowhere the same goes for player dialog and alpha tests.
Therefore i will do as you say and read some posts ZzzZzz hehe maybe not ...boring i wanna talk not read allready decided things well maybe i should find a beta test who needs me :). Well that said im outa this topic i never got the discussion i wanted, but you cant win em all.
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