Hunger and Thirst

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:13 am

Greetings!

I would like to propose the implementation of a hunger bar and a thirst bar. These would be separate from the current health bar. Right now characters in illarion do not eat and drink realistically because there are potions that raise the heath bar faster than food. The implementation of a hunger and thirst bar would cancel all that. Here's how the bars would work. The hunger bar and thirst bar would decrease gradually with the thirst bar decreasing at double the rate of the hunger bar. Food would raise the hunger bar to full, and drinks (water etc. not potions!) would increase thirst bar to full. A penalty for not taking care of one's hunger and thirst would be that once eitehr of the bars is down to zero your health bars starts to slowly and gradually decrease as well! And if you don't quickly take a bit or take a drink you can even die! If the addition fo two more bars would not fit on the player interface there could be a
F(?#) key that you could press to check on your hunger and thirst status. One for hunger and one for thirst. The message could be something like #me is famished, #me is gorged, #me is parched, #me is dying of thirst. I would much prefer the implementation of bars though as the visual aspect would be much more helpful and beneficial to the eyes for frequent checking. That's all for now. Thank you for reading, please post your thoughts on this proposal in a polite and helpful manner.
-Elaralith

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:20 am

You could just shrink the other bars and have more room for the other bars then pressing buttons and they be labeled.

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:31 am

i proposed this a little bit ago, and separdum said that it probably wont happen

Sir Gannon · Post by **Sir Gannon** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:13 am

Yeah WWAAYYYY to much like the Sim,and Everquest. Dont even want to go here.. >_<

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 3:18 am

hehe, one of the few ideas i totally agree with elaralith on, at least farmers and bakers could make a little money besides selling to npc's

i think there is plenty of room on the interface to fit two small bars on it.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:08 am

I absolutely hate hunger and thirst in games. I play games to have fun, not to make enough money to eat!!!

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 9:19 am

To have hunger and thirst, it is like the proposal of a stamina bar.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:15 pm

Now when this has been mentioned..

What would you think about changing the Mana and health-bars into text such as 'Healthy', 'wounded', 'Seriously wounded', 'Near death' ?

Just asking your opinions

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:10 pm

that would be way too scary carinthar, im not a very good fighter and rely on that bar to know how much im getting hit.

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:12 pm

no the bars are fine, because when you are fighting you know how hurt you are

Kragmar · Post by **Kragmar** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 10:43 pm

Those messages would get old REAL fast. Have you ever played a text based mud with those? They are a pain. They really take some fun out. If there were a way to make it not annoying, then I wouldn't mind it too much. Maybe you could place some food in a special bag and the computer automatically takes the food out of that without sending you a message. It would only send you a message when you were hungry and the bag was empty. But I really wouldn't even like this idea except for two reasons:
1. It would make the profesions of baker and farmer more important. The only way they can make money now is to sell large numbers of their products to Eliza.
2. It would be a significant boost for the economy and would encourage player interaction. Currently, very little money moves in the Illarion economy between players and this would help to solve that.

The biggest problem with this proposal (other than the annoying messages) would be to find a way for the players to find a reliable source of food from other players. I suppose they could just eat a lot of apples and cherries, but this would eliminate the only two good reasons I see to implement the proposal.

One last thing. A good idea for a skill, might be a wilderness survival skill. That way, if a person was on a journey and couldn't get to a town before their food ran out, they could at least manage to find some way to keep themselves alive until they could make it to a town. It's not really needed now, because we only live on this one small island (and there are apple trees everywhere.) Later, however, it might be nice

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 2:16 am

I changed my mind I dont want to have a food and water bar, too realistic.

Soon enough Ilarion would be real enough to go live in.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:43 am

@Separdum Why wouldn't you have fun making money to pay for food? That is great for roleplaying. Everyone should need to eat, and this enforces that very real fact. I certainly would not mind having to eat every now and then-it would still be part of the fun and RPG experience! I don't understand at all why you would find this "annoying".
@Aragon Stamina is how physically weary or rested you are. It has to do with endurance. Hunger and thirst have a bit to do with stamina but are kind of different as no matter what a person will still get hungry and thirsty. But if a person does not do anything all day he may not lose much stamina.
@Caranthir That wouldn't be an accurate description of one's state. The bars are visual and I like them.
@Kragmar That is another reason why this would be good. As I mentioned earlier as you did it would increase demand for products that farmers and bakers make;something that is absent right now. The reason few people buy food etc. is because there are better options like potions for restoring health. Separate bars for hunger and thirst would cancel that and stop that.
@Kringin Illarion is a game but remember it is a ROLEPLAYING game which means you live out what a certain character would do in his/her life and interact with other players. That means that as much realism as possible in accordance to the fantasy theme is essential.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:34 am

im with ya all the way on this one, but it is true you could just pick apples off trees and drink water from the river, alot of people would do this just to avoid buying food.

Kragmar · Post by **Kragmar** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:49 pm

@ Elaralith The messages are annoying because I don't want to deal with every little facet of my character's life. I only want to deal with the major aspects. His conversations, his money, his travels, things like that. Yes, I'm playing this game to live out another character's life, but I also have a real life. When I'm playing a game, I want to spend my time talking with others and trying to accomplish things, not eating an apple. I suspect that many people feel the same way I do. As long as I'm in town, I don't worry about those things. I wouldn't mind getting money to spend on them, but I just don't want to spend the limitied amount of time I spend online doing everyday activites like eating and drinking. That's why I would encourage an automated eating device. You might not have ever played a game with hunger/thirst, but it can become very difficult to hold a conversation. The messages spam the screen. This would be even worse in Illarion where we can only store between 25 and 50 lines of text at a time. If the computer automatically ate the food that you had on you before it started sending you messages, this problem wouldn't occur. Also, if a third bar were to be put on the screen, I would prefer it to be stamina. A person would need to access that information more quickly than how hungry they were because their stamina could determne whether they choose to fight or run away (which needs to be decided very quickly). Hunger on the other hand, wouldn't kill them nearly that quickly. It would take a month or more. For hunger/thirst, I would recommend just using text like Caranthir suggested for health. Put two little lines (maybe below the inventory window?) that say
Hunger: [your hunger rating]
Thirst: [your thirst rating]
Anyways, these are just my ideas.
Kragmar

Kragmar · Post by **Kragmar** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:52 pm

@ Elaralith I directed that entire post at you accidentally. I originally meant to write about why the messages were annoying, but it evovled into a long ramble on my hunger/thirst ideas. I wasn't bashing your whole idea, I just got carried away with my own.
Kragmar

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:37 am

Elaralith wrote:@Separdum Why wouldn't you have fun making money to pay for food? That is great for roleplaying. Everyone should need to eat, and this enforces that very real fact. I certainly would not mind having to eat every now and then-it would still be part of the fun and RPG experience! I don't understand at all why you would find this "annoying".

Does it matter why I don't find it fun? I don't.

And as for having to eat every now and then, I already do in the game. Even when my mana and life are full. Part of roleplaying.

I find it very annoying to be doing something, mining, woodworking, etc.. and then I can't move, or whatever, because I"m hungry. I do not find that fun at all.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:49 am

well if serpedum doesnt like it, im giving up hehe,he has the final decision.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:56 am

I don't think we need to have every little part of life as well. Sure, Illarion would be more realistic if we had to eat, bathe, go to the washroom, rest and collect money to support ourselves, that is a fact that can't be proven wrong. The thing to be debated (Which is being debated) is if it is important to add these things into the game. I don't think anyone wants to play a game to do mundane tasks such as these. In any case, most good role-players do these things anyway, they don't need anything to force them to.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:15 am

@Korwin I know well that for a game to have such mundane tasks as "going to the washroom" is boring, but you see this idea for hunger and thirst is just not for the sake of realism. When I proposed this I had in mind a better future for farmers and bakers. With food being not so scorned and actually a needed item. This would balance out the economy too and have not only the smiths be the main money makers.
@Kragmar You wouldn't have messages spamming your screen. There would be a button to be pressed to display the message or even better a graphicaly bar that would let you visually see your hunger and thirst level. Your complaint that you wouldn't like the "spam" messages is really worthless and unsensible as it just wouldn't happen.
@Separdum Good to hear that you eat every now and then as part of roleplaying, but many people don't. This system would balance out the economy as well in favor for such crafts people as bakers. Bread would be in higher demand. I hope you see my point. It is not just for the sake of realism that I made this proposal. As well, I never once proposed that when your hunger and thirst level was at zero that would make you unable to move. That is just something you came up with out of nowhere. I would say that not being able to move would have to do more with your stamina level being down at zero and not your hunger and thirst.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:49 am

doing things to specifically help the economy (such as making people get hungry so they would buy food more) is not always good for a game, because then all you do is become money makers so you can live.

In the game now, you are not REQUIRED to spend a gold coin for anything. You can walk around naked, you don't have to eat, you dont' have to fight, etc... so what you do is up to you.

I don't think it would good for hte game to REQUIRE you to buy anything. Only if you want to buy it.

I am sure that food will become more valuable in the future by other means, but making people hungry I personally don't feel is a good idea.

Also, I don't absolutely have the final say for a few reasons, 1. I have been known to change my mind and 2. there are other GMs and if they feel it's a good idea then it gets done.

I do know, however, that if we implemented every single suggestion that people came up with we would have an unplayable game. Not from bad suggestions, per say, but just from ones that don't qauite "fit"

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:03 am

@Separdum I agree that doing things to help the economy is not always good for a game, but oftentimes it is. Many things are implemented for the sake of balancing the economy such as th "gemcutting" skill per say. And specifically this proposal would not make people just make their life "making money". Food is a wide range Separdum. There are free foods such as fruits and free drinks such as water. If people did not want to buy bread etc. they would not be forced to. There are many ways to calm one's physical needs that are "free". Again having a hunger/thirst bar would not require players to buy anything. If you were a hunter you could survive on meat. If you were a citizen of a town you would not be required to buy food, but it would be realistic for you to do so. Because in a town all crafts rely on each other, and a townsman who does not know how to hunt will most likely buy from those who do know how or those who can make food.
Don't know why Gro'bul was so "eager to please", and proclaimed that you had the final say. Good of you to clear that up.
I agree, if every single proposal was implemented things wouldn't fit. That's why these are proposals. They are vague ideas to be discussed and examined for quality and then if found to be good implemented.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 8:25 am

Elaralith wrote:Many things are implemented for the sake of balancing the economy such as the "gemcutting" skill per say.

No, adding the gemcutting skill had absolutely nothing to do with balancing the economy.

The gemcutting skill was added because players thought it would be fun to have a gemcutting skill. They thought it would be fun to become gemcutters, and this was a skill that players asked for.

Adding this skill did change the game in different ways, such as now gems are more valuable, but are harder to get. Also, there would be a few less gems in the world.

It did not really say that now gemcutters could make more money, because of the very high failure rate of some gems and the minimal change in price that Eliza would pay for them, they would actualy wind up making *less* money than before.

Elaralith wrote:And specifically this proposal would not make people just make their life "making money". Food is a wide range Separdum. There are free foods such as fruits and free drinks such as water. If people did not want to buy bread etc. they would not be forced to. There are many ways to calm one's physical needs that are "free". Again having a hunger/thirst bar would not require players to buy anything. If you were a hunter you could survive on meat. If you were a citizen of a town you would not be required to buy food, but it would be realistic for you to do so. Because in a town all crafts rely on each other, and a townsman who does not know how to hunt will most likely buy from those who do know how or those who can make food.

Again, you are MAKING me do something. You are MAKING me gather food, to keep it in my inventory.

That is just something I personally don't like.

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:06 am

Elaralith no effense but you seem to be a RPG extremist.

Games are supposed to relieve stress, thats why me and all of my friends near me and around the world play it for. Not just Illarion but shooters(you have to try one ex. quake, UT etc.), RPGs, strategy games, etc.

Now when you start putting too much reality based stuff in there, umm its no fun... got to agree with Serpardum. Less stuff less clutter.

Instead of making people roleplay, why dont you teach them how to in the game? Instead of making them do something indirectly why dont you tell them what to do, and make them learn. Hold some ingame classes or something. I don't know but I think you enjoy this kind of stuff.

Loki Feuerhaar · Post by **Loki Feuerhaar** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:16 pm

Hello !

I didnt follow, or was able to follow, the whole discussion. But i would like to add that i already proposed 'Hunger and Thirst' a while ago ( in german only).

I dont understand why some people refruse to add such a natrual thing into this game. Even when a Stamina System is in place it does not make your character to eat or drink for many days, for me this is unbeliveable.
Allowing your Characters, from the system, to adventure out in the wilderness without makeing them care about food and water.
Some years ago i played (like many other too) "Das Schwarze Auge", a Roleplaygame with a Hunger and Thirst Effect, which was in my eyes very well implemented, exaclty the way Elaralith suggested.
Two simple bars in you Character-Menu showed the status of him/her.

Serpardum, i understand why you dont like to be froced to do something, but if you think about it, your 'Roleplay' should already force you to eat and drink after a specific amount of time. So i say, why dont put it in the system?
Picking up an apple wont kill your game expierence at all.

Yours
Loki

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:10 pm

i get what serpedum is say, its just another hassel, but, perhaps in the future food could help stamina regenerate faster than natural as it does health, just a suggestion.

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:20 pm

This is one of the few topics in which I agree with Elaralith.

I've always thought the whole purpose in this game was to get away from the old hack and slash method and concentrate more on roleplaying and realism. I've played many games where you are required to eat and it did not really take away from the fun in the game. It only adds to the realism.

I also think that baked items should fill the meter more than just an apple or grape. This way people may be inclined to buy from a baker rather than just pick something off a tree.
Another option, if the hunger meter is used, would be to put fewer trees then people would buy more from the bakers.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:55 am

@Separdum Noone is "making" you do anything. If you choose to roleplay a person that is never eats/fasts/starves that is perfectly fine. Going on a fast and not eating is something you can do, but you must face the consequences. Not eating make sone weak and so should lose health. If you choose to starve your player to death...that's fine too;nothing is being forced here. I really don't understand why you are under the impression that to implement a hunger/thirst bars would "force" you to do anything.
Actually, adding a gemcutting skill did affect the economy Separdum whether that was your intention or not it did. As you put it so well, gems are now more valued and costly. Gem prices higher is defintiely a change in the economy. Also many people want this hunger/thirst thing to be implemented too, but just as for the gemcutting skill there are people opposed. I hope you haven't forgotten the many complains from some people about "yet another skill". Some even considered that a "hassle", and I notice the same ones that considered the implementation of a gemcutting skill a "hassle" seem to think that all these good proposals that enhance the RPG atmosphere are a "hassle" as well. Such people probably do not truly see the point of a RPG game and do not belong.
@Kringin Perhaps to your eyes I am a "extremist". Actually that is not the case. Most likely you are a long way off from being a good roleplayer and that is the main reason that you see all other good roleplayers as "extremist".
@Loki Very well put. I meant to post something along those lines as well.
@Gro'bul I am not even going to bother...if you see such things as "hassles" then you probably shouldn't bother to play a true RPG because you might wreck the experiences of others by not doing the right RP actions that you consider a "hassle".
@Crocket I don't think that "having less trees" is a priority. We don't have that many fruit trees in illarion anyways, and if fruits did not help you become less hungry as fast as bread did I am sure most people would buy bread for the convenience anyways.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:46 am

Well, reguardless, Elaralith, I do not like the idea and nothing has really been brought up to change my mind.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:06 pm

Then it will be hoped that others on the illarion staff like this idea, or you have a turn of mind sometime soon.