Coalition for the Change of Skill Levels (CCSL)

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:19 pm

I bet that all the older folk are going to say i'm crazy because they are already experts

and we youngins "are just powergaming, trying to get our skills up instead of roleplaying". You'll see. But, i feel that the skills are too hard to raise and that it should be easier by half. It is no fair that the original people are getting rich off the newer people because they joined before the 10x harder junk. Everyone rally behind me and maybe we can achieve something.

Boremier · Post by **Boremier** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:28 pm

I must admit I do feel sorry for the new peeps because all of the people that were on before the 10x harder system (I was also on before it)have gotten there skills easier then the new peeps.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:30 pm

I suppose I'm an 'older folk' and yes I am going to say you're crazy.

It is no fair that the original people are getting rich off the newer people

Sounds similiar to 'that blacksmith is getting rich of me because he dug up all the coal when it was still around, and now I can't make my own stuff!'. I think this is yet another attempt by the GM's to prevent everyone from doing everything. If things are easy you may say 'I am an archer and I need arrows, so I'll take up carpentry' which is totally unreasonable, but with this system it is 'I need arrows, but don't have the time to invest in carpentry so I shall buy them'. Concluding, I think the craftsman skills should be this difficult to learn.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:30 pm

Can anyone post this in German?

Boremier · Post by **Boremier** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:33 pm

I agree with what you said Kor but I also agree with paul I agree with what you said about the archer Kor and I agree with what paul is saying.

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:41 pm

Oh my God, 3 time the same posting. and this contents *urgs*. This was discussed already times before. The only effect will obtain you is, that the skills of all Chars are deleted for equal rights to newbs. This coalition is absolute imbecility, sorry.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:44 pm

I have to agree with Fieps on this one.
Besides, this game aims at being realistic, not Communist

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:40 am

I am one of the older ones, but I do feel the effects of the change in skill system because of my skills in all categories dropping off the face of the Earth... that is a long and useless story to tell. I tried magic on bugs to see what would happen with the new system, as those are low.. I was casting ra-pen and once i ran out of mana, I ate somethign and walked around.. You know what?!? IT only took about 10 tries of doing that to notice an increase, which isn't bad to me. Although my char will never ever be able to cast spells at great efficiency again, this system is great

.

Don't even translate this into German. What you are proposing Paul will never happen.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:30 am

If you wish to be negative about the skill system, that is fine...
but er... this is a rather strange and ridiculous way of presenting it, isnt it?
just curious

Kringin · Post by **Kringin** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:33 am

Paul if everyone's account were to be reset then the economy will be more in hell. Many tried to convince the people to return it back to normal, face it you cant win. Even I tried to go against it, but they are right, you have you use your brain and your fingers now and not just your fingers. The only thing I am after is the amount of skill lost but noone answered to that so might as well forget about it. And trust me I have died quite a few times and its a pain sometimes, mostly I use my head a lot, I experiment so its a lot easier for me to gain it back then others

Have a nice day.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:36 am

Okay, i shall answer everyone. What i meant is that, all the older people are experts in at least one field. The new people find it extremely difficult to become a master at a skill, and have to depend on the older people for supplies. I read a message that said something about skill difficulty that increases as you get better. I like this idea.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:46 am

Ill just be happy if they make gems other than blackstone to be processable, i know they are but i'm just making a point that It is ridiculously hard to cut gems other than blackstone. Plus the people who processed a lot of gems before that skill was made must have made a fortune

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:01 am

I am only hearing from "older folk". I want to hear the opinions of new people.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:58 am

Okay, here comes another "old" person... You really should just stop... in all honesty I would be embarassed about constantly whining about how the skills are unfair ...Oh, but wait, I am just an old person

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:25 am

Yeah, grandpa. Move over for us young ens

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:10 am

Young and Stupid? Oh, that may be only in the case of one person...

Stop embarassing yourself and stop complaining about the system, if you don't like it go play Runescape... I hear all they do is try to "level" and gain skill...

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:11 am

Check my message for you on the proposal board, "whippersnapper"...

Its titled, taking this away from everyone's suggestions.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:12 am

This is what i mean!!!!! Look!!!!! He is like, "Oh, if all you want to do is level, go play Runescape." He only has that opinion because he became a master when it was still easy to! I'm sure if he was in my shoes, he would feel the same. Instead, from Mount Olympus, he frowns down on all the people that aren't gods (metaphor)

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 6:07 am

I have gone through the new skill system in tailoring, fighting, magic, glassblowing, goldsmithing and many more and it is great!

You are fighting a useless fight Paul, and in doing so you are only making people dislike you due to how annoying you are and you're flawed arguments, which Cain has already ripped to shreds... Give up, it is better to have people read your good proposals, if you have any rather than this trash.

Moyáve · Post by **Moyáve** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:33 am

Sometimes the attitude of you people makes me wanna quit this wonderful game. Why can't you respect an opinion that doesn't fit to your own? Why do you always have to make it down, instead of reasonably criticizing it? Pauls suggestion is neither stupid nor embarrasing.
Paul, i will join if i hear a good suggestion of how to change the system, so that it brings equality for everyone.

One thing at last: You might think that people who demand to undo the skill gaining change are powergamers. But it can be the opposite. Think. If it's 10x harder to gain skills, you need 10x more time to get a skill, therefore you use 10x less time you spend in Illarion for roleplay, and 10x more for gaining skills. So the chance for Powergaming is 10x higher, if i see it right.

And about that comment that i have already heard several times, even from Gms: "You can't achieve anything"
Oh yes we can! I'm sure we can! We can. If we are enough people, they must listen to us. The Gms can't make changes against the will of the community that plays the game. ("We are the folk") If nobody plays their game anymore, they have to ask for our opinions. What would Illarion be without it's Players?

And now: Make me down!

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:29 am

And now: Make me down!

As you wish, I am always ready to crush the feeble opinions of someone else. Just kidding.

Think. If it's 10x harder to gain skills, you need 10x more time to get a skill, therefore you use 10x less time you spend in Illarion for roleplay, and 10x more for gaining skills. So the chance for Powergaming is 10x higher, if i see it right.

Do I love quotes?
In my humble opinion, the staff planned it so, that the people would have to spend more time in this game to get the skills somewhere decent.
(I do not know if this is true or not, but hey I don't even work here

So instead of the previous week, you would have to spend ten weeks.
Thus the gamemasters did wisely, since they took away the Sword/Bow/Wand from the part of the players, who are the most unfit to use them for the good of anyone. In month most people have wisened, at least a bit, so Running around and burning down the town doesn't sound that interesting.

And about that comment that i have already heard several times, even from Gms: "You can't achieve anything"
Oh yes we can! I'm sure we can! We can. If we are enough people, they must listen to us. The Gms can't make changes against the will of the community that plays the game. ("We are the folk") If nobody plays their game anymore, they have to ask for our opinions. What would Illarion be without it's Players?

You start from the assumption that they would 'need' this game and its players. I believe that they don't, this is a hobby for them, a hobby which they have spent a load of cash and endless hours of their freetime.
This sort of a blackmailing 'Do this or we leave' could perhaps work to PtP game team, but not Illarion. The GM's could end this project tomorrow without any warning if they just wanted to.

My 3 Euros and 35 cents.

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:29 am

A simple suggestion.
At the beginning everyone receives the possibility to select a certain number of skills. 3 Craftmanship Skills, 2 Weapon Skills, 6 Druid or Magic Skills and so one.
These skills are forever mastered, no matter how often i die i remain master in all skills which i chose at the beginning.
Effect:
+ never again complaints over "how hard it is to raise skills".
+ never again gossip over: question: "as far is your skill in parry?" Answer ": "by the A of parry"
+ never again deplored over that a person has too less time for the "roleplay", because "skill-raising" is no longer necessary /ability extension.
Thus is everything solved, great idea, isn´t it?

*frinz*

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:36 am

I totally agree with Caranthir.

If the developers want, they stop the game. It is their game and their decission, what they will make with it.
It was the same with the changes of the magic system in april last year.

Don't forget, this game is in developping and we have the honour to test this great game. We have no rights on the game.

And it was surely neccessary to strengthen the skill system, cause it was ways to easy to gain skills before. You could manage in one day to master mostly all skills. Was this usefull?
Developping this game will go on and there will come more changes, some liked and some not by players.
And some will conflict older, some newer players.
The last great change, the magic system was mostly a disadvantage for older players and their chars ...
Why always complaining to make things easier.

This change should have be done months before. But couldn't happen cause of a missing server programmer.

Galdriel · Post by **Galdriel** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:28 pm

what about "building up" a charakter over time.
its just the same as with p&p systems.

if someone builds up a charakter in just a few adventures, gaining huge amounts of experience in a short time, this shows in their way of playing.
they dont "live" their charakter, and most often they are the "i am so mighty" players.

on the contrary, the most charakters, that are slowly build up over a lot of time and many adventures gain by this.

to realy master a profession takes a lot of time. in RL this would take way more than the 3 years of an apprentice.

in between: a skillcut might be inevitable in the future anyway.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:23 pm

Besides, if it were much easier to gain skills, there wouldn't really be an incentive to stay alive would there?
Now it is actually horrible to die... as it should be

Faramier · Post by **Faramier** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:14 pm

Are you really so mindless and cruel? Moyave tries to make a point that you dont listen to anybody and then you proove her right, you cut her down and throw her into the fire after reading the words you want to hear.

Yes the GM's could pull the plug at any moment, but at this rate by the time they get round to doing it there wont be any electricity anyway, as testers we are also here to suggest constructive idea's. Paul is doing exactly that and yet you toss him aside in your stuck up way. It should be hard to learn your skills and so forth and so such but how do you expect anyone to enjoy themselves when the acheive nothing, at the current rate there is a huge gap between the players.

The dictators(the old players) and the peasants (new players) the dictators make the game absolute hell for the peasants thus they revolt and so the dictators just toss them away and ignore them.

One day the dictators will die, then there skills will go down, oh but low and behold they can never get it back up again because of the ridiculous amounts they got the skills up to. Then YOU will be here complaining about the skill system and in your turn be wiped away. Where does it end?

The answer is HERE! we will fight for fairness and fight to the last man woman toddler or newborn untill we recieve what we deserve.

You have my full undying support behind your efforts.

Guingalan

Loki Feuerhaar · Post by **Loki Feuerhaar** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:27 pm

Guingalan,

your realy give me a upset feeling. So please consider yourself as deeply flamed and compared to something slimy, ugly and small.

There will be always "gaps" beetween Characters (NOT Players), and so its intended to be.
My Character is an "old" one in the 8000's. But is he a "dictator" ? No! Is he a Master-Of-All-And-Much-More? NO!

By the way, Paul gives not a single construcive idea, all he is doing is playing the stubbron little kid and spamming the forums with a topic that has been already discussed over and over.

Another intressting aspect: Arent you deleted Guingalan? So why are you still arround in the forums ?

Yours,
Loki

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:33 pm

Guingalan wrote: ... you cut her down and throw her into the fire after reading the words you want to hear.

The dictators(the old players) and the peasants (new players) the dictators make the game absolute hell for the peasants thus they revolt and so the dictators just toss them away and ignore them.

You make exact the same, as you complain about others doing with Moyáve! Picking some words out of others.
Haven't you read my post?

There I have stated, that there were changes, which gave older players a disadvantage and there are changes, that give younger a disadvantage. And other changes will come in developping this game furtheron to a well balanced game.
The only fair resolution would be, to make a complet wipe after every change in the skill system. But would you like to have a wipe every few months?

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm

And if everything was wiped, the whole econonmy would go to hell, everyone's shovels would break meaning that it is impossible for them to do anything rather than walk around because they wouldn't have money to buy from the NPC. The smart one's would mine for one group and give all the ore and coal to one person in return for shovels, and later items but the majority of the new players wouldn't do this because, from what I see in Paul's post, he just wants personal glory. Thus, players like Paul would be at a disadvantedge and the majority of the other players would be at an advantedge because, if they were kind other players would probably help them out once those other players thought they could do so without ruining themselves...

Paul, although what you are saying is on the OOC boards and cannot be used ingame the way you are treating people on the boards, whining about a system and posting you're complaints on numerous boards which will lead people to despise you.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:16 pm

I assume that you didn't even bother to read any other posts.

Hmm..
If the idea is soo constructive and great and it will rock the world, why post it on four different forums, and re-opening discussion that has been talked through before and bringing absolutely no new perspective on the matter?

The dictators(the old players) and the peasants (new players) the dictators make the game absolute hell for the peasants thus they revolt and so the dictators just toss them away and ignore them

I concider this whole sentence to be plain bullsh*t.

If you got any more stuff like that coming, please don't bother wasting time and effort by typing it.