Mmm, food is good for you

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:40 pm

Yes, another attempt at making cooks useful.

The bonus for 'good diet' failed in certain cases, because its a long-term thing instead of a short term one.

So here's a short-term suggestion which should be very wanted, and as a result - make cooks more wanted.

When eating a MEAL, there is a %age chance for 1 - 3 attributes to be raised for a period of time circa a day.

The %age chance depends on how hard it is to make the meal, and this only works once until the older effect dies down.

When you eat the first meal of the day, you get a message which describes any effects you gain (or one which describes you getting nothing).

Obviously, not all attributes should be raisable by this method-

Strength - The hot meal makes you feel stronger
Dexterity - The hot meal relaxes you somewhat, making small mistakes less probable
Agility - The hot meal makes you feel more lively
Intelligence - The hot meal makes you relax and gives you the calmness of mind to think better
Willpower - The hot meal fills you up beautifully, and gives you the will to face the day again.
Constitution - The hot meal makes you feel tougher

Essence and Perception can not be raised in this manner (first person to point out 'CARROTS HAVE VITAMIN A' gets a dunce cap).

Aaaand

Discuss.

Alexander Knight · Post by **Alexander Knight** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:51 pm

CArrots have vitamin a

I was thinking about the food thing today actually but not in the same way.

Is it possible to poison food? or even pour a poison into a cup of lets say wine? because i would feel that it would make for better RP and even add a darker sinister tone too it with business vs business and taking out the rival's

just a thought

But what if someone eats a food which gives them enough willpower to get into the magic academy gate and then it wears off? Lots of stuck people.

But all in all it sounds quite good mate, but when will Nitters have time to implement it?

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:08 pm

@proposal: Sounds okay. You mean 1-3 attribs raised by 1 point each?
Fitting texts would be nice. There are not only "hot meals"

Is it possible to poison food?

No.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:53 pm

pharse wrote:@proposal: Sounds okay. You mean 1-3 attribs raised by 1 point each?
Fitting texts would be nice. There are not only "hot meals"

Well I was thinking it only to work on meals, just because I think a meal is something you'd eat 'once a day' (its the middle ages and all that), while other 'stackable' stuff is just a snack. 1-3 attributes would get raised by 1 point each. I'm still considering whether them 'stacking' (for example +2 dex +1 strenght) is a good idea.

Stuff like pies and cakes I suppose would count as meals I guess.

Is it possible to poison food?
No.

Its technically possible to poison unstackable food - but the use of this is very disputed, especially since all current poison does is kill people. "Oh look, a person I don't know giving me a pie! I think I'll eat it. *later* I'm sure this feeling of impending doom has nothing to do with the pie I just ate *turns into a cloud* "

Olaf Tingvatn · Post by **Olaf Tingvatn** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:07 pm

so then orcs, whom can rely on raw meat to get them trough the day, will suffer? same as for lizards whom can rely on raw fish to yadda yadda yadda....*suspicious squint* nooot that my orc have eaten that much raw meat lately..but, you know.. i do like the proposal..but cant see the need for it, dont we allready have bad day good day impact on the things you mentioned? sure, cooks needs to be more needed and all that..meh....shouldnt we be waiting for the Very Big Update before we make all sortsa sugestions?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:39 pm

The VBU contains no difference to cooks, and will not make cooks any more, or any less important.

There is no 'negativity' to orcs or lizards. There are meals made out of meat, and meals made out of fish.

So if your orc wants to come in on this - he simple needs to eat ONE meat based-dish per day. He may then eat as much raw meat, dead halflings or whatever as he likes. Same for lizards.

This is not giving a 'malus' to those who don't eat meals all the time. All you need to do is eat a SINGLE meal per day, and BAM, free attribute bonus. You can then feel free to choke yourselves on as much rubbish as you like

Alexander Knight · Post by **Alexander Knight** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:54 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:

No.
Its technically possible to poison unstackable food - but the use of this is very disputed, especially since all current poison does is kill people. "Oh look, a person I don't know giving me a pie! I think I'll eat it. *later* I'm sure this feeling of impending doom has nothing to do with the pie I just ate *turns into a cloud* "

I was thinking more along the lines of sending it with a messenger to your enemies

But is there any way to lessen the poison just like if you get poisoned by a scorpion or mummy

Arvemor · Post by **Arvemor** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:20 pm

Poison would be awesome... But if it did exist, maybe those with high perception might realise something was wrong before they ate it...I guess...poison in food is kinda useless if it doesn't cloud...or disorient...or something. Lower stats maybe? Like an opposite to your hot meals?

And I like the hot meal idea also...but only because it gives me more attributes.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Hmm! First, I thought "yet another complicated, unnecessary proposal nobody needs", but then I thought twice; you're suggesting a very simple yet effective benefit of food.

But having two, colliding and maybe contradicting benefits of food is not good, at least I think so. Simplicity is important, so, why not replace the current benefit by this more simple approach?

I understand it right, you want to grant a +1-3 at random upon eating a dish, at a chance. Aye, sounds nice, but only if you remove the +1-2 on CON of the long term diet. Otherwise, we'd have two types of boni, that is strange game design.

So, yes, sounds good, do it, but make it as simple as possible. Keep in mind that 10 not-so-nutrious dishes should not yield more bonus than 5 twice-as-nutrious dishes, but I assume you can do this 'homework' yourself. Personally, I'd make the boni "stackable", but the chance to get another bonus should go down, like you have 10% chance for the 1st bonus and when you have it, you only have like 1% chance for another bonus (numbers represent just the general idea). So, no swallowing down of 100 dishes to max out your attributes, but also no "One dish a day keeps the doctor away".

Edit: In conclusion: Do it!

Edit:

pharse wrote:
Is it possible to poison food?
No.

Reminder!

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:34 pm

So, yes, sounds good, do it, but make it as simple as possible. Keep in mind that 10 not-so-nutrious dishes should not yield more bonus that 5 twice-as-nutrious dishes, but I assume you can do this 'homework' yourself. Personally, I'd make the boni "stackable", but the chance to get another bonus should go down, like you have 10% chance for the 1st bonus and when you have it, you only have like 1% chance for another bonus (numbers represent just the general idea). So, no swallowing down of 100 dishes to max out your attributes, but also no "One dish a day keeps the doctor away".

Now you raised an interesting point.

The way I saw it was only one-meal a day counting. By stacking I meant "Is it possible that I eat a high end food, and the RNG rolls me +3 strenght instead of 3 different ones?"

I actually prefer the 'one meal a day' thing to be honest. Obviously if your chosen meal is an easy-to-make dish, you won't have much chances, but if its somethigh high-end, you can have a nice bonus.

I don't like the idea of 'eat lots of meals so I can improve my attributes'. In fact, I think the fact that you only get one 'chance' a day will mean people will look to get high-end meals instead of buying (or making!) their own and chugging them down.

As for "Do it" - I'm 20% done in one of my school projects. The moment I finish it, I'll start work on this.

David Turner · Post by **David Turner** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:45 pm

Seriously, there is a much easier way to get the result that you want. If all you are looking to do is to increase the amount of business that cooks get than shorten the time for the con bonus to become evident and make food "lighter" so that people could carry more of it. The con bonus is good but, when it takes several RL months for it to come into effect, then people get tired of waiting and go to something else. The other main problem with the current food system is "either I can cary 50-100 fish, or 10-15 meals on my training expidition (where I will be needing the food)", so if a player wants to constantly eat "good" food than they can't train as long. This would take, probably, 20 minutes or so for the numeric values to be changed as opposed to the much, much longer time to add something new like what some have been proposing.

Simply put, not only do you have to pay for the meals and get benefit that you never see till after you forget about it, but you also have to carry more weight in food as well which prevents training! If this is the issue, as I see it, then the proposed change only moderately fixes the first one (because the benefit would be changing) and doesn't fix the second problem at all. Deal with what is before you look to what might be in the future.

The only real benefit to the proposed change is that it might attract non-fighting characters more than the current system does. Of course the scripting is much harder, much less direct, and the results are somewhat frustrating. How many meals will a crafter pay for if they have a 1/6 chance of getting a slight increase in the bonus they need, assuming that they manage to get a bonus at all? For all but the most powerful people (who often buy food anyways for RP reasons or because they have more silver then sense), they won't keep it up for long. Even the desire for good meals from survival-oriented characters will drop off since they can't be sure what they might get and constantly buying meals can get expensive. Some of this confusion can be helped by giving specific bonuses for different types of meals, but that is almost more of a scripting nightmare and causes more disputes in the long run (how do you decide what food (or type of food) increases what, how do you deal with characters who "need" something specific in their diet (such as orks with ham or faeries with fruit), how do you ensure that the proposed changes are at least as useful as the old system (so that you don't have complaints of "we gave up the old thing that worked, somewhat, for this?), etc. etc.).

Hopefully this gives people something to think about.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:53 pm

Was a very interesting read to be honest.

Constitution is only needed by fighters. Crafters and Mages (who don't want to die) don't need it.

Now, looking at the rest of the attributes we see:

Strenght - Needed for Crafters (carrying capacity) and Fighters
Dex - Needed for Crafters . Fighters - ????
Agility - Needed for Fighters, mages, Crafters (since it increases the speed with which you do things)
Intelligence - Needed for Fighters, Mages, Crafters (since it increases learning)
Willpower - I have no idea, Mages
Constitution - Fighters

.: If you're a crafter - 4 are important
If you're a fighter - 4 are important
If you're a mage - 3 are important

So its not the 1/6 chance you'd think it is.

Its a 2/3s and 1/2 chance.

If the bonuses don't stack, then eating a 'level 2 bonus-giving' food, is GUARANTEED to give you something useful

So yes, I think this will be useful, and people do like a gamble.

And its not a coding nightmare either, you just pass 3 values into the ltstate...

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:10 pm

We already have a working system.

If the only problems are that it takes too long to come into effect and that it only changes CON, then adjust it instead of creating something new.

=> multiply modifier by 10, way faster
=> combine it with Good/Bad Day feature (there we already got fancy texts), so all attribs are affected.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:14 pm

I say the Long-term diet system is a problem because it doesn't give any incentive for starting to pay for food unless you are guaranteed that you can keep going.

It isn't good for people who go "Oh a cook, I just earned 2 silvers off my hunt, maybe I should buy some food to see how it goes" or something like that.

This suggestion tries to aim at the 'casual food buyer' or as a more 'relaxed' form. Currently when i look at my character who can really afford to buy all the food he gets, I don't do it, simply because i'll need far too many, and I don't see myself ever buying enough from a cook.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:25 pm

Taking away the cons which affects fighters and adding this in it's place (more a positive thing which affects all professions) sounds like a good idea, I can see uses for it including the willpower for mage apprentices. Why not essence and perception? Perception can help map/treasure hunters, essence again mages?

An immediate reward would be more desirable IMO.

All the group buys a meal hoping one will get more perception to hunt a map

I like the idea as long as no negative is added i.e. making an attribute less "normal".

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:32 pm

I didn't put in perception and essence because I think it weird that immediatly after enjoying a nice meal, your standing in front of the gods increases

Same as perception. And no, vitamin A doesn't work that quickly

David Turner · Post by **David Turner** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:35 pm

I have seen the increase in defensive capability that comes with an increase in con from eating, so I know that anyone who wants to survive can use it (including mages, but not likely crafters unless they are duel specked, as most of them are). Either way, even using your numbers which I may question, this would be taking a bonus that is 100% useful to some and making it between 50% and 70% useful to everybody while not giving them the benefit of knowing what they are getting. My point is that, if the 100% useful isn't bringing in business, than figure out why the current system isn't working before trying to change it.

Random questions I had for anyone who could put my mind at ease: so basically in this proposal you eat one "good" meal and then you are good for an IG day with those bonuses? Than the character, what, fills in the rest of his food bar with berries or whatever else he can scrounge? Fish are currently one of the main money sources for new characters, would this change hurt the new players (which are the lifeblood of the game)? Also, could this change not be added in addition to the current system, adding both a potentially larger long term benefit to eating well as well as a short term benefit? IE: you get an immediate benefit to one or more of your (+1 to any non con stat) stats but also get the longer term (1-3) health benefit if you eat real food rather than just filling in the spaces with berries. Honestly the justification of adding most of those benefits are a bit odd, if this is implimented we would either have to say "Illi is different than real life" and be done with it, or come up with a better explanation than "the meal relaxes you making mistakes less probable".

ah well, it will probably be a very long time before anything like this is implemented anyway.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:07 pm

pharse has a point, so taking the current system as basis, I'd do the following:

-Remove any negative Diet-O-Meter values from free food (punishment for eating an apple)
-Make DOM-value decrease over time
-Lower the threshold for +1 CON drastically

You eat some dishes, you get +1 CON. Each dish will increase the time this bonus lasts. Eating no dishes (free food or nothing at all) will make the bonus vanish after some time. You can also give a +2 on CON upon reaching a certain DOM-value, just like the current system. Basic difference: You are not punished for eating free food anymore but have a CONSTANT need to eat dishes. Currently, after reaching the +2 bonus, you can go with low quality (not free) food without risking to lose your bonus EVER -> no gain for cooks!

I'd put 1 DOM-point = 1 minute of +1 CON, you gain +1 CON upon the first DOM-point. +2 CON upon reaching 1000 DOM-points.

I'd not modify any other attributes of you want to stick to the current basic concept.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:09 pm

I like your suggestion Estralis, can we also extend it to strenght or something else as well?

Extra con is no use to a crafter.

Unless of course the food you require is inverstly proportional to con, THEN it would be a very interesting suggestion.

Eadgar · Post by **Eadgar** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:53 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:I say the Long-term diet system is a problem because it doesn't give any incentive for starting to pay for food unless you are guaranteed that you can keep going.

Therein lying my problem (as a poor and relatively new player). I'm not really ever sure when or if I'll be able to afford to buy something and when I can afford to buy good food, it is never in the quantities I need. As I said in another thread, I rarely ever run into cooks (though I always buy something when I do), so I spend a fair amount of time foraging, I can't not eat a whole mess of apples and berries and so on.

It isn't good for people who go "Oh a cook, I just earned 2 silvers off my hunt, maybe I should buy some food to see how it goes" or something like that..

That'd be me!

I would be all for the llama's proposal, or just taking away the negative modifier for eating "bad" foods... that being said, I'd buy more from the cooks if I could ever find them when I was in the market for food (or just knew who they were).[/i]

wolfsword · Post by **wolfsword** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:29 am

Eadgar wrote:
Hadrian_Abela wrote:I say the Long-term diet system is a problem because it doesn't give any incentive for starting to pay for food unless you are guaranteed that you can keep going.
Therein lying my problem (as a poor and relatively new player). I'm not really ever sure when or if I'll be able to afford to buy something and when I can afford to buy good food, it is never in the quantities I need. As I said in another thread, I rarely ever run into cooks (though I always buy something when I do), so I spend a fair amount of time foraging, I can't not eat a whole mess of apples and berries and so on.

It isn't good for people who go "Oh a cook, I just earned 2 silvers off my hunt, maybe I should buy some food to see how it goes" or something like that..
That'd be me!

I would be all for the llama's proposal, or just taking away the negative modifier for eating "bad" foods... that being said, I'd buy more from the cooks if I could ever find them when I was in the market for food (or just knew who they were).[/i]

There are some nice, really good foods you can use as 'training' food (As S'rrt pointed out once, IG, ;P) which is roasted fish. They cost, at the most, 2 copper, and loads of people sell them IG (*Cough*SamuelGreenrags*Cough*) and Alex, so there's one way.. you can also kill pigs and smoke the ham, and bam.

Visit the Bluemoon inn in Greenbriar when it's open! Or ask for Samuel Greenraegs.. >_>
<_<
>_>

Ragorn · Post by **Ragorn** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:35 am

* Why not increase of perc and ess?

* I would prefer increase of concrete stats instead of a +(1-3) on random stats, e.g.
- mushroom soup: +1 perc, chance 30%
- carrot soup: +1 perc, chance 50%
- rabbit meal: +1 con, chance 20%, +2 con chance 10%, +3 con chance 5%
- bear: -1 perc, chance 30%, +1 will chance 50%
- wine: -2 perc, chance 60%, +2 will chance 80%
- sidre: 1/4 healing, low antidote
- etc.
Including many other possible effects from the druid system.

* I would give a possible bonus on all cooked/baked/brewed items.

* I would distribute the impact of a special food item randomly, so that maybe a low level item could have more impact than a high level item. Reason: This supports the starting cooks, and makes everything more diversified. Not current the "I want to buy 100 rabbit meat" but "I need 10 soups, 5 sausages, 10 rabbit meal, etc ....".

maryday · Post by **maryday** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:49 am

What about the procedure of production?

Add special ingredients to the normal production?
Or add to finished meal, by ctrl-click standing infront of fire, with certain tool in hand, and special ingredient on belt?
Or -use- special ingredient on food?

This remembers me kind of a former proposal concerning spices.

Good proposal, i think.