Easy to Understand Attributes

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:38 am

Taking it onto its own topic.

Currently, the attribute system is mostly confusing, unknown and a mystery to those who aren't Matt.

Players have a general idea of what a particular attribute does, and they try to use it, mixing in their own theories.

Now attributes are only set once - so if you mess it up, you're going to play a 'less useful than it could truly be' character. Permanently.

So, let us question - why do we have attributes?

The most frequent answer is so characters can be a little different to one another.

However this is not a valid counter-argument against "Make attributes easy to understand". Currently, the attribute system simply punishes those who don't research, experiment or ask Matt, and encourages you to experiment with getting the perfect character. Is that what we want?

I think if we were to balance the attributes, and make them CLEAR, then we could have truly unique characters.

For example if Agil improved dodge, Str improvied damage, and perc improved hit chance - you can easily produced a balanced character, a dodgy character for long combat, a rarely-hits-but-fatal-when-he-does character, a character who wears the enemy away slowly, hitting always et cetera.

Much nicer than the total mystery we have now.

Moreover, it would help characters be 'specialised' at a task - so we'll have less mining-smithing-knight-mages and more seperate tasks which inter-communicate.

Discuss.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:50 am

Just to clarify, are you suggesting changing the current attributes, or simply making this clearer?

http://illarion.org/community/wiki/index.php/Attributes

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:31 am

I think the only thing that needs to be said on the illapedia is that strength is wrong.

In the fighting system Strength will not always be the deciding factor in the damage you do. different weapons have different primary attributes. and while all the fighting stats (dex,str,perc,agi) effect every kind of weapon, the degree at which they do so varies. So i can say that much can be misleading, but everything else seems fine.

Aside from that i don't think anyone needs any more information then whats posted there.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:12 am

http://illarion.org/community/wiki/inde ... ction=edit

Have fun!

Olaf Tingvatn · Post by **Olaf Tingvatn** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:50 pm

i think that the atributes information is quite clear, why not put a link to the explanation of the atributes in where you make your character. so the new players, who know absolutely nothing about the game, can set the atributes they want instead of, like in the newbies forum, guessing and then finding their atributes to be totally off the mark. put the link on the page where you set the atributes with a simple "click here to find out what each atribute does" or the likes.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:57 pm

Yeah that's my primary problem. You're brand new to the game, you have a ton of choices - and nobody knows what they mean.

Oh and what does dexterity do ? Is it useful to a) Stop weapons breaking b) Hit opponents c) Hit opponents with daggers ? d) Get critical hits?

I have heard all 4 of those during my stay here, which is correct?

Same for perception.

And the consensus seems that this information is too useful to be given to us.

Olaf Tingvatn · Post by **Olaf Tingvatn** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:16 pm

well whats the point of knowing more then is allready explained in the atributes section on illapedia? not that i can remember them, but strength is for carrying more and melee fighting, dexterity is for crafting i 'think' and agility is for dodging..i allways mix dexterity and agility for being one another so i could be horrificly wrong. But, i do not see the reason as to 'why' a dev should explain 'every' little detail of how the atributes work and what they do.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:19 pm

Because what you are describing is simply for slashing weapons.

Melee fighting doesn't use strenght as much as you think. If its concussion sure - if its dagger, there's another more important stat.

And what about perception? Does it help you be more accurate or not?

I wish that they're clear so people can make choices about how exactly they want their character to be.

And not give penalties to players who haven't brute-forced the character creation system to understand how it works.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:36 pm

To be honest after talking to a few, and some may disagree, I have found out there are a few for sure things that help yet some are simply the combination of which attribute you use with which weapon/armor. I am REALLY not sure there actually IS a set thing such as do this and this and this and you will have an uber fighter. Some stats help yet are so dependent on other things that the generalization posted in the attribute is a very good start. I would only add that the mage attributes need to be stressed i.e. specifying that you need certain attributes in order to do any spells (though this may be better addressed after mage adjustments to teaching) , The crafter attributes is IMO obvious yet having the link to attributes when picking your char just like the name link is, may serve to point a new confused player to the right area to look before they pick those attributes.

Olaf Tingvatn · Post by **Olaf Tingvatn** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:39 pm

A high perception is good for archers and is explained in the atributes section of illapedia. And having a 20 in perception you dont allways have to right click "examine closely" to see if they are all sortsa wounded. AND im pretty sure you can see the exact quality of armors, weapons and shield with a maxed out perception. and im pretty sure the devs aint telling you anything because they can and wont

it is all explained in the atributes section of illapedia *repeats himself*

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:57 pm

Yes Olaf, for archers I can understand.

What about other fighters? I have heard 4 versions of it - a) Does nothing b) Determines critical hits c) Determines whether you hit d) Determines whether you parry

Again, no idea which is true.

Its these which are a problem - I set my attributes ONCE - and if they suck because the rumours were true - you have a crappy char. And I'm not the kind of person to brute force the system - though I could if i wanted to.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:01 pm

What exactly do you suggest? An essay of twenty pages with all formulae that involve attributes? Maybe you can name the informations you need or how you want to rewrite the Illapedia article.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:04 pm

So, Adrian, you actually ask if you are allowed to look through the scripts and publish every detail of which attribute does what?

As far as I had a look into the scripts, I just can say that much: Much more things are influenced by several attributes than one might think in the first place, there are often random factors and it is quite a lot of work to determine and especially describe how everything works in an easy-to-understand-non-technical way.

Olaf Tingvatn · Post by **Olaf Tingvatn** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:04 pm

well..after playing with my orc character that has 7 in perception for a long long time i do not think perception helps fighters with landing criticals. it only applies for archers as far as i know. AGAIN im just sayin what it says on illapedia about atributes>,<

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:08 pm

pharse wrote:So, Adrian, you actually ask if you are allowed to look through the scripts and publish every detail of which attribute does what?

Nope, by brute forcing I meant "Create a ton of characters and try out different combinations"

What I'm just asking is that certian things are cleared. The basic request is that you put a table which explains which 'class' each attribute is useful for and what it does - example

Strenght | Useful to Melee` Fighters | Effects: How much you can carry, how much damage you do with giant axes but not with bows, toothpicks or feathers.

that sort of thing.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:10 pm

Critical hits use some stats combined.

Every single attribute is done in a strange way, so much that even I cannot understand it fully. It's like.. strength isn't just about damaging people, it can be for example... parrying strong opponents aswell.

It's a detailed system where every single stat is important, that's why you might read Nitram's posts about how max / min stat chars will suck.

-Matt

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:14 pm

Retlak wrote:that even I cannot understand it fully.

Aaaaah the world is going to end!!

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:14 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
pharse wrote:So, Adrian, you actually ask if you are allowed to look through the scripts and publish every detail of which attribute does what?
Nope, by brute forcing I meant "Create a ton of characters and try out different combinations"

What I'm just asking is that certian things are cleared. The basic request is that you put a table which explains which 'class' each attribute is useful for and what it does - example

Strenght | Useful to Melee` Fighters | Effects: How much you can carry, how much damage you do with giant axes but not with bows, toothpicks or feathers.

that sort of thing.

And I meant that you might volunteer to do that, if it's allowed. =)

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:22 pm

[quote="pharse"]And I meant that you might volunteer to do that, if it's allowed. =)[/quote

Or we could bother whoever wrote the system and force/ask him/her/it to tell us?

Otherwise sure, i'll do some script-reading for the community

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:28 pm

If so keep it quiet and not detailed, I would prefer NOT to know that my char of two years will never do good in something and should use so and so weapon not even trying others.