Make useless weapons useful!

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:05 pm

Ok, this proposal is about two weapon types that are useless and no one uses them.

Two handed weapons
Curently no one uses them. Why? they are slow, inacurate, and do shit damage.
Proposal:
Two handed weapons are huge heavy weapons that should lay waste with every swing. Thus, I say they are unblockable (negate parry skill), each strike does huge damage (2-3 strikes, at max, from a fully trained warrior, should be enough to kill anyone) and also do damage to all adiecent people (since they are swinged in large arcs).
Downside -> you get a huge parry malus.

Distance weapons
Curently they are slow, and do almost zero damage.
Proposal:
I want to bring distance weapons to a whole new level. Normally, a well placed arrow would be enough to kill anyone.. that's what i want to see. An amazing archer, being able to take out targets with one arrow, but to prevent this I will modify the distance weapons from a normal weapon into a usable item.
Thus, when you want to attack someone, you do not ctrl+click him, but use your bow with the person; if that one is moving... thought luck, anticipate his movement, because if you run that arrow through him, he's dead meat, but if he gets next to you, no more shooting.

So, let us talk about a few details and nice features:

->> when shot, your corespondent body part armor gets replaced by an arrow graphic, your armor part getting put back into the inventory. Upon getting hit, you lose HP corespondingly to your constitution.. from an instant KO for minimum Con, unarmored guys (mages, watch out), to heavly injured status for 20 Con, heavly armored chars.
Depending on the body part that was shot, we are looking at a number of different effects:
- Leg shot - get immobilised for a few minutes, then moving as if encumbeled. Does not cause high damage.
- Arm shot - instantly drop the weapon from one of the hands on the floor and even after the arrow was removed, can not equip anything in that hand for a few hours. Does not cause high damage.
- Body shot - Heavy damage. Like said before, it variates from instant KO to a serious injury. The char is slowly bleeding if the arrow is not removed. Can not drink potions or be healed in any way while the arrow is in the body. If the person got KO'd after being shot, or by getting shot, if not tended to in ten seconds, he dies.
-Head shot - Extremely difficult to achieve, but it's an instant cloud.

->> Arrow removal - as said, when shot, the corespondend armor part gets replaced by an arrow graphic. If used, the arrow gets pulled out, with a bleeding effect depending on the body part. The most dangerous will be body shots, since the char will already be at low HP so the bleeding has to be treated quickly or the char would die (by using bandages unintrerupted, for let's say, 10 seconds).

->>Sniping! Yes, sniping. What was a the distance weapon's main goal if not to pick someone from a distance without them even seeing you, if necessarely?
How can this be done? When 'using' the crossbow (yes, I want it to have a specific function), you will get an info saying who you see in the distance (not on screen) in your looking direction and if they have moved in the last 3 seconds.
So you will basicy get a message like "you see Cromwell at arround 17 feet away in north-east direction. He is not moving". To shoot, you will whisper a command like "#snipe Cromwell" and the arrow is shot to the man's last position. If he has moved in the mean time, though luck, since the arrow will have a bit of delay in reaching a target, depending on the distance. Note: sniping from a higher level (a mountain, a house's rooftop) will give you a bonus.. maybe a wider view and a better hitting chance.
At very high levels, one will be able to choose a body part that he wants to target, so the command will be something like "#snipe Cromwell head". The rate of actuall success will depend of many factors.

->> You can't normally use a crossbow in a normal fight because it takes longer to recharge, though a crossbow will ignore any armor the target might have, going for the full hit.

---------------------------
I know that the devs are working at a new fighting system and probably these weapons have been revised, but I hope that you will find my ideas interesting and will use, at least some of them, into thesystem to come.

Cheers
- Marius

Rekarafi · Post by **Rekarafi** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:10 am

Nice, but i think its a bit too much.

2 handed weapons would kill in 2 or 3 hits AND are unblockable?
Sorry, but that would be way too strong. They should get one of the options. Unblockable OR huge strenght. Both is a super-weapon.

Archery sniping is quite good, but would be strange. You would get a message "arrow hits you in the leg coming from north east" then you travel north east and the sniper is away, cuz he moved (if a sniper doesnt kill, he always changes position

) n next message would be "arrow hits you in arm from west" and so on.
the sniper would repeat this as often until he places a headshot or else for instant kill. Even with a crappy bad bow and no aiming skill, after some time you WOULD place a hit.
So a archer with best speed is not able to be beaten. he runs and shoots, runs and shoots ect.
And the system when he moves you miss is also strange. if you are hit by arrow, you WILL move n search for the bowmen/bowwomen. So after one shot the target would just walk walk walk until he finds you n you would nevur hit again.
Did i get something of the idea wrong or is it quite that way?

I mean, yeah. 2-handed weapons and bows ARE crappy now, but really no need to make them the best uber weapons.

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:23 am

The whole idea of two handed weapons is to make them very powerful, as they should be, but the downside of them is that they are heavy so you wouldnt have a very good defence and even if the guy can't block your heavy axe, he will for sure dodge you if he's good enough. Not to mention that they are qite slow as well.

Archer running arround and shooting you is kinda the whole idea behind a good archer, isnt it? I mean, you wouldnt see an assassin staying in the same place after he has attempted to kill/killled the target, wouldnt you?
And you say that the miss when he moves is strange? well, if you have missed to kill your target, you'd better run away, if you dont want them to see who the assassin is

The whole idea behind sniping is to take your time, follow your target arround, see when he is the most vulnerable and when you are most confident about your odds, take the shot. If you miss, get the heck out and try another time

Post by **Jupiter** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:19 am

We should wait until the new fighting system is there. Then we'll see.

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:39 am

Most two handed weapons have an advantage to them that is usually overlooked by others. Be it a little extra damage, able to hit farther, and so forth. They have very specific uses in which most other weapons would be totally useless.

1d20 · Post by **1d20** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:04 am

Two handed weapons are slow, so they'd be EASY to dodge, not impossible, but if they DO strike, then you're facked.

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:04 pm

Yeah, thats the idea

Velask · Post by **Velask** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:24 pm

Why do people make fighting system proposals when they're fully aware a new system is already under development that will address these issues?

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:44 pm

I know that a new fighting system is under way, but does it hurt anyone if a few ideas are adressed? maybe some are found interesting and implemented before it comes out

Achae Eanstray · Post by **Achae Eanstray** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:23 pm

I can't find a link however I believe it was mentioned in one weapon suggestion that two handed weapons have been addressed...and no, it can't hurt to bring up more ideas.

To shoot, you will whisper a command like "#snipe Cromwell" and the arrow is shot to the man's last position.

Sounds like a good mage killer!

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:24 pm

Achae Eanstray wrote:
To shoot, you will whisper a command like "#snipe Cromwell" and the arrow is shot to the man's last position.
Sounds like a good mage killer!

I fully promote the implementation of this idea

Aust · Post by **Aust** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:55 pm

Velask wrote:Why do people make fighting system proposals when they're fully aware a new system is already under development that will address these issues?

Well, I've adressed this problem before, and got this answer in return from Nitram: "The weapons are balanced. You just have the wrong attribs."

Well, then please tell me how max strength can be wrong for a twohander?

To me Marius' suggestion seems to leave twohanders a little too powerful (not to mention these lethal bows of his

), but I think its a good time for him to bring this up... NOW you are changing the system; this is the time for suggestions?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:00 pm

this is the time for suggestions?

No, it is too late. The basics of the "new" fighting system were done one year ago. It won't feature any fancy "!snipez0r"-commands nor unblockable weapons that pwn a demon in three hits. Just balanced weapons and armor. And most weapons will have a use, in special two handed and distance weapons might become very popular.

So: Be patient, wait some more weeks and THEN give us feedback.

Kappa · Post by **Kappa** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:40 pm

Aust wrote:Well, I've adressed this problem before, and got this answer in return from Nitram: "The weapons are balanced. You just have the wrong attribs."

Well, then please tell me how max strength can be wrong for a twohander

At first, yeah I like the intention of find-out-ingame but on the other hand, me think my character finds more out than me.. he gots a better feeling of the weapon in his hand or the armor on his body or in front of his eyes.. is it good roleplay if I start long test series of different armors vs different monsters?
Some more documentation wouldnt hurt that much.

Estralis Seborian wrote:So: Be patient, wait some more weeks and THEN give us feedback.

Awesome, weeks? *jumps up and down out of anticipation*

Joxini Baenra · Post by **Joxini Baenra** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:53 am

Unfortunetly i do not know.. Is there a little board or news or something on what the new system is going to be like? THX!

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:34 am

There will be a news entry as soon as the update takes place. In a nutshell, there'll be the option to chose from various effective fighting stances, not just "dual serinjah ftw!". Fighting with two daggers and leather armor could be as effective as fighting with a halberd in plate mail; as long as you chose your enemy wisely.

Olaf Tingvatn · Post by **Olaf Tingvatn** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:19 pm

*rubs his hands together eagerly* sniping does sound funsies..but i aint never read/heard about any famous snipers from the medieval times that used crossbows. ooooo only a week or two untill the new fighting system comes out! 'now' im excited

martin · Post by **martin** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:24 pm

With the exception that fighting with two weapons simuntaeously will no longer be supported.

Martin

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:17 pm

So like, you can't use two daggers instead of one? any reason for that if i might ask?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:05 pm

Yes, there is a reason and you will find out that it is a small sacrifice. Let us talk on about the update as soon as it took place, or better, two weeks after so you can collect bugs and inbalances. Just be patient.

Post by **Nitram** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:07 pm

Yes. That will occur with the next fighting system update.

Fighting with two weapons at once will not work any longer in general. No matter what weapons.

The reasons for this are of a very technical reason and caused by upcomming updates of the server, client and scripts. There is no way to keep the two weapon fighting style. You just have to trust us on that one.

Nitram

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:24 pm

***SPOILER***

The reason why you cannot use both your hands to hold a weapon is because the left hand will be permanently occupied by an adrenaline needle that you can inject into yourself to increase your fighting performance by 40% once per hour.

-Matt

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:28 pm

I got no complaints. Sounds fine too me, was just curious as to the reasoning. Thanks for the prompt responses ^^

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:40 pm

well, we know how the staff works. It takes three-four years for them to figure out that it's probably not a bright idea if two shields make you completely invulnerable to melee damage. But once that train has (finally) started moving, there's no stopping of it anymore... "Heute, verboten wir die doppelschilde! Aber jetzt wir mussen doppel-alles verboten!"

True story.

Thrym · Post by **Thrym** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:16 pm

The only true dual-wielding that happened historically was with rapier and dagger for a time during the rennaisance, so I'm not at all opposed to taking dual-wielding out of the game. It's more realistic with a single weapon.

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:12 pm

Personally I think it’s a shame duel wielding will be gone. I very much like the scope, style and freedom it gives characters. I like the fact that you can use any combination you wanted both for the roleplay of the character, the development of skills and the fun of seeing what worked well with what. It seems (without the foresight of any new fighting system/weapon balance) a backwards step in game play.

The very fact many players use duel weapons in particular Serinjahs I think adds to depth of story and culture to the game. All time periods and cultures had their martial fashions and styles. Duel Serinjas is Gobiath/Illarions. I guess the fashion is moving on to what Matt finds to be the best combination next.

Looking forward to seeing the new changes if not sad to see the loss of old ones.

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:37 pm

Personally, I look foreward to the whole "Defensive stance / Offensive stance etc" bonuses in fighting. Great for fighting tactically depending on your opponent.. and great in general for targetting certain skills to PG.

And the fact that every weapon will be balanced perfectly.

-Matt

martin · Post by **martin** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:38 am

Drathe wrote:Personally I think it’s a shame duel wielding will be gone.

Ok

Aust · Post by **Aust** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:16 am

martin wrote:
Drathe wrote:Personally I think it’s a shame duel wielding will be gone.
Ok

I hope you compensate by making weapons like daggers more powerful, if not, chars will be walking around with a dagger and a shield?

Oh, and can you please make one of the elven swords a twohander? Preferably the normal one (not the rainbow sword). That would give The Tinechor some more options at least, hehe.

Thrym · Post by **Thrym** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:50 am

Aust wrote:
martin wrote:
Drathe wrote:Personally I think it’s a shame duel wielding will be gone.
Ok
I hope you compensate by making weapons like daggers more powerful, if not, chars will be walking around with a dagger and a shield?

Oh, and can you please make one of the elven swords a twohander? Preferably the normal one (not the rainbow sword). That would give The Tinechor some more options at least, hehe.

Or, in the same manner that sword + shield has a more defensive or offensive stance, they could do the same thing with a dagger and nothing, except it increases the dodge rate for defensive instead of parrying.