Open Discussion about Knights/Paladins/Guilds/Alignment

HolyKnight · Post by **HolyKnight** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:04 am

Since the server is down I guess I will start a discussion that I have been wondering about for quite some time. I know that the Paladin/Priest system is not ig so I understand why not many people RP priests or Paladins, but why are there not a lot of people that want to RP knights? Right now IG if you are a "fighter" type character and want to join a collective group of people you join the militia of one of the towns, join the TB town guard, perhaps join the Knights of Gobaith, other then that none of the guilds/factions that are geared toward skilled fighters AND RP ever stick around (havent RPed much with the Order of Grey Light but there is another option I guess).

Not including affiliations with a certain town and its protection there are not any guilds for "fighters" other than The Knights of Gobaith. This saddens me because I see people like William, Grivijak (Grim), Avalyon, Dominic, Krall, and I suppose a couple more go out and do something together as a group and I am sure they have a blast! And those have been some of my favorite times IG is with a group of 5 or so and RPing something collectively with a goal and a vision.

Are there people that play this game that want one of their characters to be in a Knighthood? Also the last / in the title is Alignment. I am not just talking about good guy knighthoods or guilds but shady ones too. Most people that play thieves or what not are alone, I am not talking about posting something on the Forum so everyone knows your business. Personally I would have created a character to join the Knights of Gobaith but I, no offense, dont agree with how their knighthood is set-up.

Do any other players want options? I post this for anyone like me that wants to join something to give their character a BIGGER picture, I dont want to start something that no one wants.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 am

Solution: Join the Credii.

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:13 am

Join Darth Avalyon if you want action *attempts mind controll*

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:14 am

HolyKnight wrote:Not including affiliations with a certain town and its protection there are not any guilds for "fighters" other than The Knights of Gobaith. This saddens me because I see people like William, Grivijak (Grim), Avalyon, Dominic, Krall, and I suppose a couple more go out and do something together as a group and I am sure they have a blast! And those have been some of my favorite times IG is with a group of 5 or so and RPing something collectively with a goal and a vision.

I'm sorry, but it has to be said that it's Caelum ftw

We do the best stuff ever

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:15 am

his saddens me because I see people like William, Grivijak (Grim), Avalyon, Dominic, Krall, and I suppose a couple more go out and do something together as a group and I am sure they have a blast!

Damn right we have a blast! you just mentioned the main (possibly only) treasure hunter group ig.

Bellringer · Post by **Bellringer** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Credii FTW - Priests, Lay-peoples and Monks it is great =]

Avalyon and his evil schemes are also ftw (being abused by master makes us happy.)

And Caelum and its invisible walls make me merry too.

ANSWER: Become a citizen of Caelum, a member of the Credii but secretly subvert them by being a member of the AA (Avylon Alliance.)

Retlak · Post by **Retlak** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:21 am

ANSWER: Become a citizen of Caelum, a member of the Credii but secretly subvert them by being a member of the AA (Avylon Alliance.)

You just mentioend Grivijak[/quote]

Bellringer · Post by **Bellringer** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:24 am

I see no mention...I think I'm being tricked...By a grumpy old man with a Grivijak complex...

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:26 am

From experiance it is difficult to set up groups and keep them going. The towns and the grey light/rose are the rare groups that seem to be able to last. You can make a group that starts with active players, but eventually people will become inactive because they get tired of playing that character. It is hard to gain people and keep people. Even I get weary.

Plus when we get these shady groups, a lot of people tend to straight out go and try to eraticate them. Some people just don't want to join guilds because then you are forced to follow their rules. That and when it comes to the good guys it becomes difficult to play them.

And I have to agree with Eli, are there people who want to play knight type characters? What holds you back? Even if not a knight but with any guild. What keeps you from joining and partisipating? I don't want to hear the same people answer this question, I want the people who always play the crafts, the merchants, the normal characters.

HolyKnight · Post by **HolyKnight** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:28 am

Well there are the representatives of Caelum, Credii, and the AA, which I just think as Alcoholics Anonymous ((denying everything till the leader brainwashes you)) Honestly I know you three groups have it going on but sheesh dont you want some rivalry?

Bellringer · Post by **Bellringer** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:29 am

I think the reason towns and the grey orders survive is due to the fact they have buildings, if something has buildings it physically exists, so unless the building dies the guild generally wont.

Elhrímnir · Post by **Elhrímnir** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:29 am

Newly formed Credai ofcource...

gerhard · Post by **gerhard** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:43 am

All my chars are handcrafts and I would want to play a knight but there is no guild I would join
(writing with psp so short sentences)

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:48 am

There will probably be made a new Knighthood soon, but how durable will be is yet to see...

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:51 am

Dantagon Marescot wrote:From experiance it is difficult to set up groups and keep them going. The towns and the grey light/rose are the rare groups that seem to be able to last. You can make a group that starts with active players, but eventually people will become inactive because they get tired of playing that character. It is hard to gain people and keep people. Even I get weary.

Plus when we get these shady groups, a lot of people tend to straight out go and try to eraticate them. Some people just don't want to join guilds because then you are forced to follow their rules. That and when it comes to the good guys it becomes difficult to play them.

And I have to agree with Eli, are there people who want to play knight type characters? What holds you back? Even if not a knight but with any guild. What keeps you from joining and partisipating? I don't want to hear the same people answer this question, I want the people who always play the crafts, the merchants, the normal characters.

The main reason why non of my characters have joined a Knighthood is because I always play elves. I don't find it likely that an elf would swear a lifelong oath, which is needed to join a knighthood.

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:02 am

It isn't a life long oath. You can leave if you want. There are in game reasons and out of game reasons for that. Ig, characters sometimes want to move on, plus Dan had that expeciance with Kallahorn. He wanted to leave, but he couldn't because he kept getting guilt tripped about swearing an oath. The out of character reasons are... well... people quit or get tired of playing a character. I won't force anyone to stay a member if they want to quit. I won't yell at anyone for not being somewheres if they have an out of character reason. I just can't do it and I won't. Real life come first and I won't deny anyone the ability to live what we only get once.

Cuthalion · Post by **Cuthalion** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:04 am

I wasn't speaking of Kallahorn in specific, and it wasnt an "attack". I think a knighthoos SHOULD have a lifelong oath. Of course ooc reasons should be accepted.

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:07 am

Understood. I didn't think it was an attack either, so don't worry.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:37 am

as allready stated above, it is easy, to make a new group.
but it is difficult, to keep it alive.
look at the towns, the most "stable" organisations ingame.
they all change leaders more often, than a barbarian his underwear.
the buildings stay, that gives an impression of continuity.
but really, with each new leader the groups are something different.
i see only two exceptions : the grey rose, and silberbrand.
the grey rose is stable, thanks to lennier, who leads it for an eternity allready.
the dwarves get their continuity from their seclusion, even while changing kings.

specially a knight's order:
the RP usually played in illarion does not give reason to be for noble chars.
mainly there are two types of RP:
1) sugar sweet play - that goes from cybering to the normal "oh, how nice, that we all understand each other so well" - RPing
3) the "dangerous bad, bad guy" - RP. all those criminals, good or less good played, but playing nearly exclusive assault-situations. (save, when they play No.1 type RP amongst their buddies)

i jumped from number 1) to number 3). that is, because i think, what we would need much more, is in between the two types of RP.
number "2)" RP, by my ideas:
chars, that interact in a formal, but not necessaryly friendly way.
so to say, who interact normally. the simulation of a real society.
respect shown to superiors, courtesy shown to equals, haughtyness shown to inferiors.
but who would play the inferiors?
most of us play fantasy, not to feel inferior.
without such a "medieval" society, there is no room for real knights.
tin canned streetgangs are not knights.
a real knight helps a damsel in distress... to throw her from the horse and not think about her any more, when he realizes, that she is no damsel, but just a taylors aprentice.

i don't think that we ever will have real knights in illarion.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:57 am

Wow, the Grey Rose and Silverbrand have always faced months and weeks of inactivity. Not the best examples, Kormie Wormie.

HolyKnight · Post by **HolyKnight** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:43 am

but they are still there

you dont see the Knights of Kallahorn, The Knights of Trolls Bane, The Fighters Guild, the Temple (well in a way), The countless crime syndicates that clutter the guild board. Inactive happens, but it is getting through that inactivity from more guilds I would like to see.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:17 am

The Knights of Kallahorn would still be around today with Stephen didn't get banned. Arameh quit shortly afterwards, Mark had to go somewhere, and then idiot Dantagon decided to change it to some n00b knighthood which one of my characters is subsequently thinking about joining.

HolyKnight · Post by **HolyKnight** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:29 am

I think I might join too n00blet just to be in a knighthood less SOME PEOPLE START GETTING EXCITED ABOUT MAKING SOME NEW FOR THE PEOPLE OF ILLARION!

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:30 am

Isn't this geting a little off topic?

HolyKnight · Post by **HolyKnight** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:31 am

No I wanted to see if people are interested in Join a Guild that has a purpose and overall plot line if there are no ideas why not yours!?

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:19 am

as i can see with Nordmark, a guild/town/knighthood or whatever needs a lot of atention by the leader.
if the leader slacks for a couple of days, the players run away.
most players expect to be entertained.

and that seems to be the main problem in my eyes.
on one side most players let their chars act modern.
on the other side they expect to play "leading" roles.

while the leader concentrates on char A, the chars B,C,and D don't interact between themselves, but sulk, that the leader neglects them.
(i think, that this is only slightly overstated)

that is, why i think, that every change in leadership makes it a new group, even if name and location stay the same.

i think, we will see a lot new guilds and a lot new knighthoods coming and fading away.
just to get a couple of kids to make the effort, to build a home does not do the trick.
after that you either have to observe how they loose interest, because "nothing happens", or you go on building, then you loose them, because they don't want to slave away.

there is no real possibility, to make players be proud of their chars "serving" (somebody or something)

the only catch, that works more or less, is the "ingame-democratic system", where everybody gets a chair on the board, or a title or similar.
(and those one or two chars, that get nothing, will promptly leave the group)

everywhere the same: lots of chiefs, no braves...

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:57 am

Korm is just right and his posts hit the bull's eye. I have been playing characters with moral standards that differ from that ordinary cozy-democratic-freedom-let's train-woman are equal-modern stuff. In terms of alignment, this character was lawful good, but he was regarded as evil by most, because his moral standards were those of the rest of the Illarion-world, not the ones of Troll's Bane.

So, be brave, play something different and make it consistent. Just like the barbarians of the Nordmark, this is, for me, a perfect example of what we need more.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:15 am

HolyKnight wrote:Well there are the representatives of Caelum, Credii, and the AA, which I just think as Alcoholics Anonymous ((denying everything till the leader brainwashes you)) Honestly I know you three groups have it going on but sheesh dont you want some rivalry?

There is a sort of inter group between temple and Caelum nowadays. e.g. originally Will and Dom used to just do things alone, then Griv started coming in etc. etc. and now people like Deuce are friendly with them

But if you honestly think they are not opposed you should look at 90% of the population of Gobaith

e.g. some person randomly said William beat him up ((O_o)) for no apparent reason and now Lennier is on his back

But yeah.. we don't play these groups to anarchists or anything, we do it because it's a lot more fun than law abiding "Conversation in the Rainbow" drab sort of thing; mainly because there's more to do and everyone is just so funny

And on the TB aspect of things: I personally think the citizens have been spoilt with democracy and a good dictatorship is what they need

Ninder Jebkin Namwinkle · Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:38 am

It doesn't hit exactly the topic title, but to give a short example of the RP situation concerning treatment of inferiors:

A Gnome is really an inferior creature compared to humans, elves, Orcs etc. They are small and weak. Though almost all humans came to me like: "Hey buddy, come closer, you're equal, you're my friend!"; "Nice to meet you, call me [insert first name]".

Only the Orcs and one or two humans had fun to scare my Gnome. All others were either friendly (majority) or neutral.

I don't want to accuse these "others", it was good roleplay, sure. But it is the "amount of kindness" which makes it really hard to roleplay an "inferior" character.

Nobody has to hit or hunt Gnomes only because they are weak (please no instant ghosting next time I login

). But a slightly more Illarion-suitable roleplay would be good.

I think as soon as a more hierarchical understanding replaced the current democratic one, more knights, servants or stable guilds will come up.

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:13 pm

Speaking on the whole democratic thing, I had a brief talk with PO Eli last night as to what flaw he sees with the knighthood. I have to say I agree with him, though at the same time there really isn't anything I can do. He mentioned that the knighthood does not have a lord to follow or any specific town that they have sworn loyalty under. But the thing is, there are no lords of each town, instead we have a democratically choosen govenour (no Crummie, you were still democatically choosen).

At one point I was going to see if we could merge with the Grey Rose and end up being the "New Language" speaking part of it. This flopped due to time contraints on both ends (as well as time zone difficulties) and the fact that I started the school year with a laptop that had minimal memory that made it take 10 minutes to load Illarion. Luckly the latter of the difficulties has since been fixed.

Honesty, at the end of the day, Illarion is a bit of a fantasy game. If you want to recreate perfect medival life then join the SCA. Though even there people will go between playing peasants and lords, and even females can become knights. Both are just games that have been affected by modern society and it is impossibly hard to break that mold.

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Open Discussion about Knights/Paladins/Guilds/Alignment

Open Discussion about Knights/Paladins/Guilds/Alignment

Re: Open Discussion about Knights/Paladins/Guilds/Alignment