Characters and Continuity

[Korwin]

Recently, we’ve had another influx of what the players call ‘quest characters’ or, less fondly, ‘pushed characters.’ Recently these characters have begun dominating role-play, and worse, frustrating players.

These characters sloppily appear out of nowhere, some to fill perceived gaps, and some seemingly for pleasure. Whatever the case, these characters are the shoddy plot devices of Illarion that disrupt flow and never truly fit in. While we, as the lowly players, must begin with nothing and work our way from there, regardless of the type of character we are playing, these Illarion elite players skip that process, and advance immediately to a mature character, without any development of the character itself, or their role in the society of Illarion.

Despite the intention, very few of these characters actually benefit Illarion. While some act as teachers, others have no discernable purpose but to entertain the user, such as Krim, and Tysteric. These characters seem to exist only for their owners. Given their unfair advantages, these characters should be unobtrusive, and should seek not to disrupt the roleplay put forth by others. However, they do. They damage the positions of the ‘top’ characters, and in some cases actively participate in character-character conflicts, in which they have a ridiculous advantage. Some even go to great lengths simply to antagonize other characters, and nothing can be done. Many of the characters themselves are sloppy, and completely undeveloped. It would seem a number of them are merely personalities fit around a skill set, such as ‘mage’ or ‘fighter’. These characters do not add enjoyment to Illarion.

These characters need to disappear, their roles need to be given to established characters, or they need to fade into the background, and be unobtrusive to players. There are other games I can play where I’m not a background character in someone else’s playground.

[Garett Gwenour]

Fully agree with Korwin. As he put forth every arguement I would muster, I will simply provide examples and cases inwhich these "quest" characters disrupted roleplay.

Tysteric - Captured Silas, while on Stephen I tried to set Silas free as did Meriel. All three, Stephen, Meriel and Silas attacked Tysteric causing absolutely no damage and ended in a brief ooc comment (oh your invincible lets stop). At first it seemed this character would be involved with a quest later on, but no, it has no purpose but to wander around illarion, speak like a country bumpkin and somehow have mastered magic in every form. What roleplay example does this establish?

Brocs theif/mage character (the human female that always speaks with a "sies" after every otherword) - Again no purpose. Involved in nothing, and helps nothing. I remember MANY instances inwhich this character did nothing but annoy and disrupt roleplay by calling people stupid and insulting and no one can make her stop because of the fact it is a "quest" character and thereby invincible. A recent specific example is the funeral of the Bragon Priest during the "Red Tears" quest. This character came during the funeral and began insulting the dead priest, while everyone else there first just tried to tell her to respect the death of this one, she did not, continuing to call him "dumbsies" and when someone would attempt to make her leave, she would only threaten to use her unlimited magic. Tell me, what purpose did she have in going to this funeral? How did she at all help the situation?

Sedian (the warlock that comes out of a no where) - His purpose is to teach runes, and that is very good. Yet the same day Sedian "came to the island" Sedian was up in Varshikar. Not only did Sedian effectively make everyone up in Varshikar his enemy by insulting and provoking conflict, Sedian also followed the character Grant Rothman out of Varshikar and attacked him and killed him, (yes he started the conflict by use of his uber magic). Sure, maybe many don't like the character Grant Rothman, but for a "quest" character to follow another character (not pushed) and attack them is an abuse of the power of that character.

Krim - The character again has no discernable reason for existance. He has uber fighting powers and kills anything, including multiple ogres and skeletons then hears of Negros and says he will go to kill him. What roleplay purpose does he have for being so strong and so worthless? What are we, the players who have trouble against ogres, supposed to think when some random person we have never heard of before comes and kills a dozen ogres easily then wanders off to Greenbriar to attack the person that is supposed to be nearly invincible?

----

This is just off the top of my head. I am sorry, but many players, (all players of the above mentioned characters), are not mature enough to handle these characters. They got into whomever's good graces through sucking up, but their roleplay, (on these characters), is shoddy. And most times they log on these "quest" characters they ruin any roleplay intereaction between normal characters by acting obnoxious and over the top and rude because they want to show off their brand new pushed mage/fighter/warlock. And I am pretty sure everyone of the players of the above mentioned characters can tell a few times when a crowd of people walk away from their character because of the plain annoyance and lack of interest in putting up with them.

xoxo
sam

[Cain Freemont]

Perhaps some of the characters mentioned have a future purpose, or perhaps there's something still missing that they need to really get going. While the world is formed through many leaps and bounds, there are also many miniscule details that may later greatly affect the entire world we know. Just because you don't know of the purpose a character has, doesn't mean that it has no purpose. You can't possibly know everything, so I don't see why you're acting like you should.

Patience. Troll's Bane wasn't built in a day (well, not all of it ).

[Garett Gwenour]

No, they have no purpose. It is an ongoing joke in ESQS.

[Cain Freemont]

Interesting. I didn't realize that the ESQS was information privvy to the public that you can just go flaunting around in your complaints. If that's true, I would rather see it for myself.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

Maybe because i'm rather new here i don't undrestand how things should work, but knowing that despite of all of the really really hard work you are supposed to do to train and become a decent character ( no matter what type), you'll never be as good as these characters who did nothing for what they have, just makes you wanna find something else to do.. really... all the fun is taken away...

[Ereaes]

Agreed. In the instances when one of my chars has met one of these 'quest' chars, one of two things happens. one, i simply walk away because there is no point in putting up with thier insults. Two if my char is the stubborn type (ie. Conner, Revlen.) more often then not they fight because that is how that particular char does not put up with insults. Now, Revlen is a decent fighter, and Conner was (i killed him off a little while back) and i could not even put the slightest of scratches into these invincinble 'quest'chars. They show no good rp from what i have seen. Though i have seen a few quest chars that do decently, but they are very few and far in between.

[Ku 'Agor]

They are maxed out.

Ku and Grant were being bad pandas and threw about 50 wolves goblins and trolls into the TB portals and a single one of them killed the entire swarm with, from what I heard, no help, food, or potions.

[Ereaes]

I saw this event. One man blasted 9 ogres and killed them with one shot. ONE BLOODY SHOT! Now...having said that my char was thankful of course, but being that powerfull, and knowing how to rp with others, are two compleatly different things.

(small correction. Im sure these lads and lasses might rp well on other chars, but the rp with these chars is sad, if i do say so myself.)

[Dónal Mason]

Characters played by players should not be that strong. I'm wondering if the devs should get them either, seeing the current level of abuse.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

Common man.... this situation is really stupid! Everyone should have the same fair chance to become what they want to become, but only trough hard work. What hard work did they do?
Illarion is becoming unfair and it's a shame that this happenes. I really-really LOVE this game, but i just don't want all of my hard work to be in vain...

[Cain Freemont]

God this community complains a lot.


@Donal: If they did that, the devs would have yet another thing on their already heaping platter. Otherwise, I could see that as a reasonable idea.

@All: I think that the system in place right now is the best way, but perhaps either people need to prove themselves to those who are skeptical because of "unfair" circumstances, or otherwise just aren't patient enough to let an explanation (and eventual, indepth event) take place, or some new people need to be selected. I do not agree entirely with the latter, as I am sure its fine for the most part.

[Moathia]

As an experienced player, and someone who due to a technical problem can not play at the moment so therefore my opinion is not biased by what is going on in game.

I feel that invincible quest characters should not exist, they are not fair on the player population. Over the past three and a half years I have seen hundreds of them, all of them just walk fearlessly into a big group beat some people up and leave. That isn't acceptable if any character even the main charater in a quest walked up to a big group of enemies and did that he should be killable and that should be the quest over reguardless.

I am not saying pushed characters should not exisit they should appear with a quest with skills that suite the character, however they should still have standard attributes in the 1-20 scale that normal characters use.

The other option is that all these invincible charaters be monitored by gms from time to time, just like the quest board gm character is, and people found abusing these characters should like anyone who abuses the quest board gm, banned. Complaints about these characters must be taken as seriously as anything else, and players who have these characters should be made to give valid role play reasons for any action they take that are questioned.

e.g. The character that insulted people at the funeral. Why did they do that? Was it part of building a quest story? Simply answering it is something the character would do, is not acceptable, because in most cases the character doing that should fear the large group of people killing them, and therefore would not actually do that if they were not invincible.

[Cain Freemont]

Simply answering it is something the character would do, is not acceptable, because in most cases the character doing that should fear the large group of people killing them, and therefore would not actually do that if they were not invincible.

Illarion is about playing a character. If your character would do something, they should do it. By no means (even in the case of characters who are stronger than others for other purposes) should stepping out of what your character would normally do simply because your character is stronger than the others be considered the acceptable course of action over doing what your character should be doing. The staff has forced us into a lot of situations we didn't like in the past, but what did we do? We either found a way to cope with it, or we quit playing. Find a way to cope with it. Its not that hard.



AND! To address the issue of certain characters mentioned a little further... Has anyone actually READ this thread yet? http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=20198

Seems said special characters DO have a purpose that they are working towards. If you can't see it, you really should not even be arguing about this.

[Aegohl]

For the record, I was the one who started this quest way back when. Before I left I had warned that it had been abused twice and a third one would lead to the end of the quest.

I had also explained fully that if these characters became common knowledge they have been played entirely wrong. The end. They're gone.

This is the last "staffly" thing I'm doing at Illarion. No more.

[Juniper Onyx]

Cain wrote:
AND! To address the issue of certain characters mentioned a little further... Has anyone actually READ this thread yet? http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=20198


Yeah, I've read that thread. So what????

Who is this character anyways???

There were many alchemists and Archers before this guy came along.

Why do we need pushed characters for something that should be developed in Game?

You know, if the learning system was a 'tad' easier, and the GM's didn't kill off or discourage all the good, veteran players, I am sure many would have (and have in the past) do something as 'simple' as teaching archery and alchemy?????

Some of us started from scratch, and have worked very hard, both developing characters (Without Powergaming) and elaborate and evolving Roleplay. If someone told me not too long ago, my original Halfling Farmer would be where he is now, I wouldn't have believed it. But as time goes on, skills are used, friends made and the storyline is developed, thats what happens-----Characters Evolve!!!!

I don't believe we need or want pushed characters of any type! We have enough good Roleplayers of all varieties, good, evil, Powerful and Weak, that any quest could easily be accomodated to them with a simple PM from a GM to their character saying "Hey I gotta a quest for you, here's what it's about, want to do it??"

WE DONT NEED PUSHED CHARACTERS FOR THIS GAME!!!

It's an insult to the intelligence and efforts of any character that has 'evolved' over time. I'm sure Illarion has lost many good players over this issue. What is Illarion without the players? Nothing.

I really appreciate everything the Gm's do for us, and I've even offered to help, but the Gm's should take them more seriously.

[Cain Freemont]

I think... that some players misunderstand one simple thing:

The playerbase is very small for the features we have. Its not possible to find any kind of person you need, when you need it (such as a teacher of some kind). I'm sure that's why some of these characters exist.


Sure. There were many alchemists and archers before now. And do you think that they were willing teachers of their talents? No, I really doubt they were. Supply and demand does not work well when there's so little of any of it and therefore, I think sometimes such characters are necessary to stimulate the game itself.


I still can't believe that Sam has just spewed out tons of information from the ESQS just to support his point in a public discussion.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

Maybe you missunderstood what we are complaining about.... We don't like to see chars that get their HUGE skills only for a stupid quest when we work really hard and we know that we'll never get that kind of "power". Ruins all the fun! It's like telling someone that he'll be below averege for the rest of his life...

[Aegohl]

Don't mistake this as an issue of "pushed" characters. The funny thing is that when this quest was working properly, we were getting massive applause from the few who were clever enough to find out it was going on.

That's just it. These characters weren't supposed to be so obvious. They weren't supposed to be forceful. They weren't supposed to use their powers in front of people. Their abilities, I suppose, should have been a weakness for them.

However, it was allowed to repeatedly fail in my absense and for that I apologize. It is being fixed now. All those characters are being banned.

As for the issue of "pushed" characters. Those who are so against them are examples of people who never actually sat down to a pen and paper roleplaying game. NPC's, by their very nature, must range in power from none to beyond what the players can achieve. This is how we fill in the blanks that are left in our world.

It is, however, when people start playing their NPC's to fulfill the wishes of the player that this very thing becomes a nuisance.

[Cain Freemont]

You don't want superpowered characters being used for quests for everyone? Then start making quests. Jesus! If regular players would start making some fucking quests around here, then there wouldn't be a reason to complain anymore, because those pushed characters would not have as useful an application as they do right now.

[Juniper Onyx]

I think... that some players misunderstand one simple thing:

The playerbase is very small for the features we have. Its not possible to find any kind of person you need, when you need it (such as a teacher of some kind). I'm sure that's why some of these characters exist.

Sure. There were many alchemists and archers before now. And do you think that they were willing teachers of their talents? No, I really doubt they were. Supply and demand does not work well when there's so little of any of it and therefore, I think sometimes such characters are necessary to stimulate the game itself.

Are you serious?

Many of us Teach everyday. Personally, I have always taken anyone who asked aside, sometimes for 30 minutes at a time, given them tools, supplies, watched over them as they learn, and make sure they understand. I even try it using the old language too.

Most skills are self-taught anyways with just minmal teaching required. But I always like to get them off to a good start.

How long have you been playing this game???? Then the question I have to ask......who are you sucking up to?

These 'pushed' charcters do not stimulate the game in any way. They discourage. They tell the players "why teach? Just let the GM's take care of it. They do what they want to do anyways." It really kills any loyalty players may have to participate with your 'pushed' characters. They have no reason to exist IG. Nobody takes them seriously and are a little bitter that they got all those skills for basically 'doing nothing' to EARN them.

Personally, I flee from 'quests'. I believe if they aren't player generated, then they are worthless, because often its a 'pushed' and often illogical character running it anyway. It is just somebody's agenda being pushed on us. I wouldn't do a 'quest'. Who needs the headaches when I have a life outside of this game. The game should be an enjoyable experience, and besides, I love the evolving and often 'earned' Roleplay and character development.

I believe the Gm's should govern the world we live in, not the players. The players will fit into and be developed by the world they create.
For example, want to know why I intended Dusty to be a farmer and he didn't work out that way? Because he couldn't feed himself when growing crops and buying seed he needed. He was flat broke and starving because the 'World' had deemed 'growing' food worthless. He then became a carpenter and the rest is History.
Now it's been fixed and if I made 'farmer' character now, he would do alright.

The characters (and the players) will fit the world created. If you don't like the demographics of the players, change the world system, don't take it out on the players. It's not their fault.

[Cain Freemont]

How long have you been playing this game???? Then the question I have to ask......who are you sucking up to?

Longer than you.


No one. My personal matters are not relevant to this discussion. So please, leave my person out of this. I don't know what the smile you feel you can gain from assuming I am trying to gain favour of someone else or that I am new to this game. I am neither. Piss off.


Edited to add quote coding.

[Aegohl]

Just in case anyone read my post before I deleted it, I entirely misunderstood what Cain was saying. Carry on. =)

[Aegohl]

I don't see the point of this argument anyhow. Problem fixed: Divine agents are nixed.

Topic should be over, I think.

[Samantha Meryadeles]

I agree with Korwin and Garret. Pushed characters for quests and other purposes which mean rp fun for normal players are okay. We have those chars and they do good. But characters like the mentioned ones, who show off and become that much involved in everything, and who provoke again and again normal chars who are for sure dead if they would do something against it is unfair and will just make players frustraded and angry. And a questchar should NEVER make players frustraded and angry and destroy their fun at the game. The moment a questchar destroyes the gamefun of players, the questchar has to be stopped.

an Mitch, there are not only divine agents. there are many other questchars doing that. The questgroup createdx them foir any questpurpose which doesn't happens and while that they roleplay with them and do what was described abouth.


And Ku:

Ku and Grant were being bad pandas and threw about 50 wolves goblins and trolls into the TB portals and a single one of them killed the entire swarm with, from what I heard, no help, food, or potions.

Concerning that this behaviour is cheap and bad and also not the best roleplay and unfair against players in trollsbane who dont want to get involved in npc fights you gave a poorly show of rp. And the questchar killing the wolfs did a good job because he saved normal chars of normalplayers against that madness and poor rp of others.

[Cain Freemont]

Yes, the thread has already reached its apex and decline. I see no more use for it as well, as at this point players are only going to make baseless assumptions about each other.

[nmaguire]

They are maxed out.

Ku and Grant were being bad pandas and threw about 50 wolves goblins and trolls into the TB portals and a single one of them killed the entire swarm with, from what I heard, no help, food, or potions.

Aw... I was going to do that with gnolls. No point now though if there is loads of uber chars around that pwn them in one hit...

[Devrah Liioness]

I hate you all. You are all bitches. I remember four months ago everyone was whining because there weren't any quests that were powerful or important enough for all of you.

I think I get it now. I know what quest everyone wants:

EvilGMGuy is the biggest, meanest monster ever.

AnyRandomPGdHeroCharacter brandishes his UniqueUberWeaponOfDoom and the EvilGmGuy falls to its knees. Not only is it defeated, but it is also jealous of RandomPGdHeroCharacter's hair. And natural animal magnetism. And the forty thousand abused children he adopted. Or, actually, you know what? Most likely RandomPGdHeroCharacter IS an abused child. Or a smithing fairy.

EvilGMGuy drops tons of magical GM items for RandomPGdHeroCharacter. RandomPGdHeroCharacter's friend later gets one of these items.

The Original RandomPGdHeroCharacter complains because he isn't the only one that has the Magical GM items.

RandomVoluptuousWomanPlayedBYHOrnyFatKid jumps RandomPGdCharacter's bones.

----

In recent memory, members of ESQS have attempted quests ranging from cute to funny to scary to emotional - and no one has ever been happy.

Smile you all. From the bottom of my heart.

[Samantha Meryadeles]

Devrah, the problem is, those chars weren't doing any quest. Not a bit. There was no quest involved in the happenings. We bitch about the fact that they show their uber skills off without any questpurpose. just because it seems to be fun....for them alone. Without any quest purpose they were provoking and attacking other chars and, if course, pwned them. Showing how great and strong they are.

[Cain Freemont]

Aeggie already sorted this issue out. Let it die already.