Idea: City Expansion

[Jori]

As far as I know many cities from the middle ages had a walled in keep for protection in times of war. However outside of that keep would often be a large part of the city because there is no room inside the walls of the keep. I was reading in another post a few days ago (cant remember which one) that the reason TB wasn't ever growing any bigger was that there was "no room". When a city wanted to grow but there was no room, people would begin building OUTSIDE of the walls. Sometimes very little of the city would actually be in the walls. So if people wanted to make more buildings and stuf but the reply is "there is no room" then why not put the stuf outside the city? It would be much more realistic since this is what real cities were like back then. Also now that the map has been enlarged (yes, I know it's been like this for a long time now) there is plenty of room for expansion without actually going to far into the wilderness.

[Saradomin_Meranwyn]

Well I am not a GM, but I say, "Why not?"

[Gro'bul]

There were sometimes outer and inner walls. I agree to allowing buildings to be built, houses are just houses. I think you should be able to build a house with at least 2 people. You could always build these houses against the town wall even to save space if you wanted them in town. The main problem with buildings is they tend to go inactive.

[Saradomin_Meranwyn]

I wonder if you consulted a GM, if you could gather the required materials and they would make you a house?

[Rinya]

As Gro'bul mentioned, one issue that tends to come up later (after the buildings themselves are built) is that they fall into inactivity. There have been plenty of cases where small communities or groups of characters banded together and raised enough money/supplies to pay as a price for a building they requested. Usually, we also try to take into account the purpose of the building and how much it's actually needed for rp-related reasons.

Basically, we'll be more than happy to help you build and plan out a building, but not without good reason. It also helps limit the visual clutter ingame to leave away buildings that aren't really used.

[Saradomin_Meranwyn]

I see, thanks.

[Moirear Sian]

The main problem with buildings is they tend to go inactive.

Actually, to be specific, that's not the problem. The problem is the players who become inactive after acquiring in-game real estate.

I.e. *gets rich and builds a house*
"I achieved something big in Illarion, look at my house!"
*quits playing Illarion*

[Rinya]

Sadly to say, Sian is remarkably accurate. At least this is the truth in many cases involving buildings that (finally) get constructed.

Maybe it's an architectural thing - is there a corrolation between a player's ingame estate and his soon-to-follow inactivity immediately afterwards?

[Moirear Sian]

Maybe it's an architectural thing - is there a corrolation between a player's ingame estate and his soon-to-follow inactivity immediately afterwards?

No, it's purely a motivational thing - imagine playing Diablo with constant god mode, infinite gp stash in your pocket filling only one slot in the inventory, and access to shop items above your character level.

Would get pretty lame very fast.

The problem back then when that "estate issue"-problem was amuck in Illarion, was that it used to be way too easy to accumulate alot of resources - and I mean ALOT. Then put into relation the size of the map as it used to be - building something was paramount to having something as big as the Tanora Shrine or one of the monasteries that were around - so in other words you could play a little, build a house, think you left a significant mark within the game, and quit playing. It's just a game, so motivation of playing is purely directed in-game. Old games went by method of creating the illusion of winning under face of continuously increasing challenge (Space Invaders - 100 waves or "levels", each one more difficult than the last - when you beat #100, you restarted at #1, so making the highest score by points became the second and top goal in gameplay), newer games go by method of always pushing any concept of "success" another step beyond the horizon (just like alot of fiction cinema and literature does) - distantly visible, but not within reach of grasping it just yet.

All in all, I think Illarion eventually has to have some kind of automated building system like UO performed so masterfully, some distant day from now. This wouldn't kill off motivation after having built a house, as it would be something GM-unsupported, people could work more on "tweaking" their real estate or getting more somehow, and the imminent mental association linked to the building is not something indestructible, but something fragile and which needs regular attendence. In UO it was simply designed but very effective; ownership of a house demanded regular playing and checking in the edifice to keep the building, if you'd fall inactive for too long, bye-bye house. If humans have to govern this, you see what trouble arises quickly, because humans are just that and make mistakes; like being too strict or too lenient and leaving a building for too short or for too long.

If I'm not mistaken, the problem right now on this matter is that the world map doesn't allow dynamic changes without a server reset (or is it already further than that now?)

[Nop]

As far as I know many cities from the middle ages had a walled in keep for protection in times of war. However outside of that keep would often be a large part of the city because there is no room inside the walls of the keep. I was reading in another post a few days ago (cant remember which one) that the reason TB wasn't ever growing any bigger was that there was "no room". When a city wanted to grow but there was no room, people would begin building OUTSIDE of the walls. Sometimes very little of the city would actually be in the walls.

As for medieval cities your are completely mistaken. Every medieval city and castle had strict laws prohibiting houses or even trees outside of the city walls. The reason was to keep an unobstructed line of sight and line of fire for the defenders while refusing any cover to the attackers. Sometimes there were exceptions for single buildings like inns or stables, but the whole area would be levelled in times of war to prepare for defense. Also, building against the city wall was done only from the inside and much later in time. While the walls were active it was mostly prohibited as it increased the threat of a fire breaking out during fighting. When a medieval city got extended, a new city wall was always built around the new quarter. That's why most cities in europe had two, sometimes even more rings of fortifications.

Edit: See this document for a nice example of how cities grew: http://www.michael-mueller-verlag.de/xt ... robe_1.pdf

[Nitram]

There were sometimes outer and inner walls. I agree to allowing buildings to be built, houses are just houses. I think you should be able to build a house with at least 2 people. You could always build these houses against the town wall even to save space if you wanted them in town. The main problem with buildings is they tend to go inactive.

The ones who build houses should pay something like a lease to the town. If they don't pay, three or four times, the town gets the house and is allowed to sell it again.

[Aegohl]

The ones who build houses should pay something like a lease to the town. If they don't pay, three or four times, the town gets the house and is allowed to sell it again.

I've thought about that and I have problems with it. First of all, we're talking a whole lot of buildings. Second of all, we're also talking whole cities. Who gets to sell Greenbriar? Thirdly, we get into issues of ownership vrs. use. The owner of the Seahorse has been gone how long now? The building is still in regular use, however. Does it get resold or do we just accept that it's fun to rp there anyways and selling it might take away that fun? If we make that exception for one building, where do we draw the line with others?

As for medieval cities your are completely mistaken. Every medieval city and castle had strict laws prohibiting houses or even trees outside of the city walls. The reason was to keep an unobstructed line of sight and line of fire for the defenders while refusing any cover to the attackers. Sometimes there were exceptions for single buildings like inns or stables, but the whole area would be levelled in times of war to prepare for defense. Also, building against the city wall was done only from the inside and much later in time. While the walls were active it was mostly prohibited as it increased the threat of a fire breaking out during fighting. When a medieval city got extended, a new city wall was always built around the new quarter. That's why most cities in europe had two, sometimes even more rings of fortifications.

This was my original vision of Trollsbane, with several quarters surrounded by walls (I imagined the prison/guardhouse as central and walled in to itself and the city expanding around it in somewhat logical districts). However, I've been using a map proposal provided by Estralis and Arien instead. It's altogether up to you guys, really, how I do it. I need proposals.

There were sometimes outer and inner walls. I agree to allowing buildings to be built, houses are just houses. I think you should be able to build a house with at least 2 people. You could always build these houses against the town wall even to save space if you wanted them in town. The main problem with buildings is they tend to go inactive.

Propose a building/place/thing that will be used by a good percentage of players and is good for rp and it's free. Period. I don't care to argue over quests and money for something that benefits everyone.

To answer the original post and topic, though:

The problem was more along the lines of: the map was expanded, while the cities weren't. In fact, in some cases the cities turned out even smaller. Keep in mind that the city was put together helter skelter over the last five years and I was attempting to communicate that it need a, hm, revision or two.

[Callith]

The thing is, unlike building randomly in the wilderness, where you only need a gm's permission, to build in the land belonging to a town you would have to ask thier leader. And because technically untill Pendar wakes up, I am the leader of Trollsbane, none of you have a chance.

[Gro'bul]

Plain rentables won't sell because they are boring and not really "yours". Theres accually nowhere to sleep in town besides the library, inn, storehouse, or the roof of the tavern. Having a list of set prices for various things would be fun to work for (woo a goal!) and possibly even use. Like someone wants a spinning wheel, or barrel, or fireplace, table&chairs, bed, ect. A price&materials for each one seems reasonable. For a spinning wheel like what, 200 coins and 5 boards? Barrel, 5 iron&coal, 8 boards, 50 coins? For a bed maybe 3 white cloth, 30 wool, 4 boards, and 60 coins? They are basically single player quests, minus the npc and plus a gm. And maybe a mug of beer for the worker?

[Nop]

You wouldn't even need a GM, those items could be made by craftsmen. They just can't be moved anymore afterwards.

[Dónal Mason]

Perhaps a bed base item is moveable. Then it takes more resources to finish it off and turn it into a full, immovable bed.

[Arturo Reina]

The fact is the rule of the walls is from the times of gunpowder, where it must be a ring without houses for aiming the enemy with gunnery.

In the medieval times there was the fortress, with the important people, and the down town without defenses far from the fortress. In the war territory, or capitals, then there were city-fortress, with walls, but were created with a war purpose, and its not a rule

[Aegohl]

It doesn't really matter. This is medieval fantasy. Instead of artillery, we gots fireballs, but who needs walls when you can teleport?!

Really, there is so many ramifications that are added by magic that it isn't even worth thinking about too heavily. Maybe the walls should be taller than all buildings and have a roof to defend from dragons?! But how do we defend from dopplegangers, then?! And what about the crops? We could put them outside, but what about roving orcs?! They'll ruin our crops!!! I think you catch my drift.

I'm a bit upset by the lack of input here, though. I'll tell you what. I'll draw up three city plans in Photoshop and you all can tell me what you like. It doesn't necessarily mean I'll build that version, because I'm more interested in input as to why such a city would be an improvement (rp motivations come before technical motivations such as "this part of the city would be dangerously underfortified should wizards attack!").

Await my drawings.

[Irania]

I.e. *gets rich and builds a house*
"I achieved something big in Illarion, look at my house!"
*quits playing Illarion*

The idea isn't a bad idea at all, all the GM's need to do it make sure that the characters are characters who they are SURE are not going to quit. Players such as myself who are into real rp wouldn't do that.

[Quinasa]

I beg to differ.

People can be real into RP and still get bored with a game.

>.>

[Aegohl]

Here is option 1: the walled in approach.

Notice that it is put into sectors. I don't like where the arena is. I'd put it somewhere else. I'd also add more scenic places here and there. Oh. And a cross somewhere. Notice that there is only two ways in and out. You're more likely to run into eachother and the guard is more likely to run into criminals and vice versa. Good fun.

Anyways, discuss. I prefer thought out opinions and proposals to "I like that" or "I don't like that." If you tell me what it is you don't like or what it is you do like, it's more likely to show up in future installments and eventually the map.

Now go. *starts stopwatch*

[Hyke666]

In my opinion, there is no problem in building additonal houses. In other RPGs like UO it is very hard to gather the resources to be able to build a house. Its not only the gold (which is quite impossible to earn in Illarion especially for newer players with low skills ). You would need stones, boards, ingots, straw and furniture. Even for a small hut you´d need tons of material. So building a house is just possible if you spend a lot of time ingame. And those players won´t just quit after finishing their house.

I think its also important for economy in Illarion. New characters, that are starting as craftsmen dont have the skill to make quality weapons, furniture etc. but they can supply building sites with raw material like boards or ingots. New players could have the chance to earn money and they have the feeling that their work makes sense. They are not longer working for skill e.g. carving thousands of staff handles. (Rp reason)

[Aegohl]

Sorry. But that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for opinion on the map above. Take up prices with the GM's, please. (I know it says gamemaster above my name. Sorry for the confusion.)

[Estralis Seborian]

Wah! You dumped meh market place? Grrr! My ultimate hot spot with my own monument on it?

[Aegohl]

Ah. Good. I can add that in. This is just one idea. I have several versions in my head that I could do.

[Keikan Hiru]

Have you tested such a "boxed" wall pattern, Aegohl ?

You know that I had some trouble with the current townwall, since it keep creating some gfx errors at the client.

[Aegohl]

I've played around a bit, we'll say. I think I can cut it.

If all else fails and I get really desperate I'll make the whole damn town's second and third level one map file each!!!

[Moirear Sian]

I hope there will be an onionball field across the river from the inn. ;D

[Aegohl]

As an avid fan of onionball and the once-GM behind Mezzletheets: Transdimensional Onionball Champeen', of course.

[Lennier]

Have you tested such a "boxed" wall pattern, Aegohl ?

You know that I had some trouble with the current townwall, since it keep creating some gfx errors at the client.

I made studies to this problem long ago. It can be solved. But they still are not at the TS?

I really would like to see bigger townwalls and gates with more rounded corners, with own rooms and floors and arrive able roofs. They also can be mixed with and integrated in other buildings.