Just wondering after a year's departure

Tetra Xas · Post by **Tetra Xas** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:30 pm

Greetings all.

Just wondering about some matters after my return since my a year's leave.

Do we need permission to trade with the NPC Traders such as Sam if hes in a castle,
coz much has changed and the community seems to have gotten worst?

I was clearing maps since i have long lost my maps, and came to the castle north of trollbanes. so I cleared the 3 story castle, and thought I make bars off the 9 pieces of ore i have. no one was around, and soon I heard talkings coming from behind the walls, stopped my smithing and walked over to greet the voices,

but was pounded on giving a 'donation of my few ores' and asked to leave the castle and never to enter again from a Halfing ( L..... ).

so aroused my curiousity to make this first post to ask do We need to seek permission before even entering places that are 'black' in my maps.

has the community becomes so dominating that using a chest, forge or simpily talking to the Game NPC needs approval, even if I do not have the sightest idea that such items/pixels are Player Owned.

or was I wrong to return...

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:27 pm

I hope you do not take it too serious...

Your Char has the right to do anything he want. To break into the castle included. And my Char has the same rights. It is his right to blame anyone, who he does not want to see in near of "his" castle.

You never was in the Territory of Varshikar? They take taxes for the use of their resources

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:36 pm

Techincally, your char can go anywhere... however...

If the buildings are guild owned, then they wouldn't want you to enter

If I walk into your [RL] house, you have all rights to throw me out.

Places you shouldn't really go is:

Varshikar
Grey Rose Castle

unless you have permission

Otherwise read the rules and learn the places before you do anything...

Example : Illegal to cut town trees, in TB
Illegal to cut trees anywhere near Vanima

ect...

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:37 pm

As an honest player of many a rogue character, you have my expressed permission to trespass, explore, and covet any region you put your eyes upon; as well as I allow you to ignore laws and break every rule you encounter.

But you didn't hear that from me.

Tetra Xas · Post by **Tetra Xas** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:05 pm

So I guess I was silly to come back,
delete my old character (who could at least fight )
to start afresh and live under a rule of

a) " I am stronger and I have a big guild, I can threaten you "
b) " This area of the game is mine, you cannot come in "
c) " I can stample my feet all over any newcomers, because no one can stop me ''.

*the above not referring to those claiming unlawful.

Guess anyone who thought of giving the game a chance wouldnt hesitate to leave when they, trying to explore the 'blackness on the map' and get thrown out/threatened cause they ARE NOT ALLOWed to play the game on areas which is Player Owned?

Pocal · Post by **Pocal** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:08 pm

The Grey Rose own the building, thus they have the right to say who enters and who does not. Your character could do the same if ye owned a buidling. It's all IG. It's nothing against you. You could always just go in when no one is around. Or take this oppourtunity to give your character a nemesis.

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:09 pm

Its simply roleplay. You can go there to explore, but your character may be caught or may not be caught. The worst to be done is be taxed some coins. And most of the map is infact free to roam. Have fun, and get yourself used to illarion once again.

Callith · Post by **Callith** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 pm

It's called role play, it why your meant to play this game.

Pocal · Post by **Pocal** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 pm

You could also simply just try talking your way into being allowed in. I've had a char just kind of walk in, seen someone he knows inside, talked a bit and not been asked to leave, even after the person my char knew left.

Tetra Xas · Post by **Tetra Xas** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:28 pm

If only Sam has some AI.
I think he would rather serve the community then
to serve only 'The Owner' of the building
He would roleplay
#Sam walks out and rather set up his shop outside.

But I wonder why NonPlayerCharacters who are supposed to be for the community has turned into Personal Assets for Guilds.

I shall remain quiet for now and forever.

Pocal · Post by **Pocal** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:29 pm

Anyone can access Sam, as long as no one kicks you out.

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:52 pm

I think there is in fact a problem there. In theory, it is fine that you pay for it, it's yours, you keep others out.

In practice, the problem is that unlike RL there are no public alternatives in the game world. In a city there are lots of buildings and you get along fine, because you can just ignore all those homes and offices you cannot enter and there is a public place for everything you need.

Illarion has just a few buildings and it is rather ridiculous blocking half of those few off without providing a playable alternative.
Especially when a unique public resource (Sam) is located in private property. Every new character needs to see Sam for tools.
Especially when there is no way for a newbie to tell which open doors are acutally open and which are closed. It's not exactly like there was a sign there.

As a solution I'd support moving all traders out of non-public areas and simply closing the gates as in Silverbrand. Every trader will move to a place where all his customers can get to him. And closed gates cannot be mistaken for an invitation.

And in the meantime just go wherever you need to go.

Pocal · Post by **Pocal** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:53 pm

How hard would it be to allow certain players, and not whole races to be able to open said closed doors? Would it be too harsd on scripters to have to add players to the list everytime the guild expands?

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:09 pm

Nop is right, but there are some more facts:

The door in the castle, which we want to be lockable is located behind Sam. Sam stays in inside the castle but in an area, where all palyers can arrive him technical.

People without trouble with the building owners have no problems to arrive him. And people with trouble can arrive him too. But they have to be carefull, not to be watched and catched.

The same "thing" we have with all other NPC`s. The trader of Varshikar is lawed by their rulers. People with no permission to enter their land, act illegal (ingame). Banned people act illegal when they try to enter Trolls Bane to trade with Mugush and Eliza. And 4/5 of all people have no access to the private NPC of Silverbrand.

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:01 am

Absolutely, no one said the world was fair and if one wants to play a safe little game of equal chance and a sheltered enviroment, then Illarion is propably not the game for you. No harm in that how ever if you stay around you will find that many of the players are at base nomadic "essentially" and more than welcoming.
Also the grey rose castle is not a public place how ever they do allow people acess to the NPC.
Now no one got killed and a castle owner found you in there home smithing using there workshop. The town of trollsbane has a workshop, the north will have and the orc cave does to as well as greenbriar?. So no matter popularity unless one had purposefully made enemys all over there will always be "utilitys" available for use.

Illarion remains unique for the 9+ months I have been here in that it is an entirely player run political system most often with out GM guidance or moderation. Yes that means potenially some players are favored in game some may even be victimised. The upside of this is a role-play rich enviroment every thing good or bad that happens in Illarion is a chance for roleplay...
People often say Illarion is not about skills and items, even though they make up a large part of the game. To me this has always meant rp takes presidence if my character is robbed,cheated victimised the spirit of the game is not to bemoan my bad luck and loss of "pixel" wealth but make it into something far greater a unique rp expierence.
Hope you stick around to expierence that,
Brian

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:17 am

And 4/5 of all people have no access to the private NPC of Silverbrand.

Even if they have access it wouldn't bring them anything, the npc just speaks the dwarven language

Tetrax, you whine and complain ooc about something ic. You don't seem to understand the difference between ooc and ic, please try to understand it.

If your char isn't allowed somewhere it is an ic thing, and you can't demand ooc allowness to that area.

So live with it, its just a game.

Ellaron · Post by **Ellaron** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:47 am

Tetrax I have come across your character ingame and I would be sad if you left so soon. Unfortunately you've seen that illa's community is not what it once was but keep playing despite that. I hope I will run into you again.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:40 am

It makes little sense for a merchant to only sell to a select few. A merchant's main goal is for profit and trade. Every merchant would want as many customers as he can get. So for a merchant to be hid away inside a certain city, or a building, isn't realistic. And since when was Sam such a close confidant of the Grey Rose? If someone can put up a logically arguement for why any merchant would want to sell to fewer customers then they really could then I shall drop my case.

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:45 am

How ever as stated the merchant is actually public acess much as the altar of malachin is open to any who wish to visit. The person in question explored 3 levels of the castle and then proceded to smith in the castle. As owner I would have thought lenniers rp some what odd had he not questioned and asked the stranger person to leave.
Just me
Brian

Jori · Post by **Jori** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:11 am

As far as I know the IG laws arent listed anywhere. It IS an IG thing to learn the laws some might say but I think that laws would normally be accessible on a document or something instead of from what someone says. So maybe there should be a book of laws in the library so people can learn what is forbidden IG. Or someone could make a post containing the IG laws that could be stickyed so new players can actually know what they're allowed to do without having to experience it first hand and pay the price. I've been playing for about 3 years (with several different chars) and I still know VERY few of the laws I'm sure.

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:30 am

If you don't want someone to enter somewhere, simply post a sign "keep out" or close the door.

If there is no way to determine which areas are public and which are private before you enter them, you cannot blame a newcomer for just walking everywhere they please. That's not trespassing, that's just gross negligence of the owner.

Tetra Xas · Post by **Tetra Xas** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:53 am

Sorry to post again, just thought I post a mail I send to the 'Owner' of the castle, so people will not mislead or misunderstood my intention on the board. I bear no hard feelings to anyone above or below.

Mail to the Halfling.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings.

I am writing in this letter here to tell you that I had no intention of breaking into the castle of which I do not know of is in belongings of a guild or is a private estate.
When I entered the castle, it was deserted with no one in sight, all I did was buy a pair of shoe from Sam, and thought I should clear the empty maps I have, and since a forge is on the ground, thought I should smith the 9 pieces of ores I have in my bag after I did a little mining on my exploration.
I did saw a lady halfling and we exchanged words and shortly after upon hearing voices of you and another being, I stopped my work and came over to Greet you. IF i did know about the laws and have the intention to break into the castle, I wouldnt have walked over to say, "Hello'' to you at the first place.
(( IF you put yourself in my shoe and upon returning to the game, with a fresh character and restarting trying to adapt to the game, I wouldnt know why I was pounded by someone saying ' Never to come to the castle again ' and someone to ask for ' a donation ' when I only have a few pieces and should give it up to someone ' threatening ' )).
I do not wish to be in conflict with anyone nor you,
all I seek was a quiet life with my little time I have each day,
I am just hermit traveller, who doesnt remember his past, walking the lands seeking his answer on who he is,
If you think I have really offended you, then I can only say my apologises, but I do not live to be humiliated with mere threatening words when I know not what I did, cause I do not go around offending people.

Farewell

Its up to you if you wish to permit me to use the utilities in future.
Tetrax
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just my opinion and not related to above.
Even if its RP, but people should learn to give people a chance and understand situations before they 'RP' to toss people around just because they are around longer.
If newcomers had to face situations like mine and find themselve life-threatened on their 1st or 2nd day, do you think they still give the game/life of illarion a chance?, but many and much is a disappointment,

a good amount of people I seen are very welcoming in speech
a nice recruit of the guards,
nice folks around troll's bands,
a cute and energetic halfling and a funny pair of sister elfs,
and finally for the 1st time, a good dwarf who actually welcomes people named Rogan.
but I see many who go around trying to suppress people with this 'longer experience' ingame even to someone who is new, this is an obvious fault leading to low community growth.

enough said
Shall remain quiet until I encounter people with good intentions,
dont blame me if I walk away.

Final and Last time posting.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:31 am

If you don't want someone to enter somewhere, simply post a sign "keep out" or close the door.

If there would be a possibility for them to close the door. And newbies read to 90 % not the forum before they start to play.

Tetrax, I won't change my RP or behave against the role of my char just because you are new. You are here in a roleplaygame, and so you have to handle the roleplay happening.

your char meet unfriendly chars, so is life. roleplay it and live with it.

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:47 am

Galim wrote: your char meet unfriendly chars, so is life. roleplay it and live with it.

Yes. You meet unfriedly chars, just let them bitch and ignore them.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:54 am

His char should react, not he as player

. He should not forget the role of his char, and how he or she would behave when meeting an unfriendly char. He shouldn't ignore because the player don't like it.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:14 am

Any burglar or crook I'd play would be ignorant to a "May I see your papers please", or a "Halt, intruder!"

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:19 am

Galim wrote:His char should react, not he as player . He should not forget the role of his char, and how he or she would behave when meeting an unfriendly char. He shouldn't ignore because the player don't like it.

No, I mean it exactly that way.

In other games there is a newbie Island/City/Server/Whatever that welcomes, protects and introduces a newbie to the game world. Experienced players cannot enter there to push them around.

In Illarion, there is no such introduction, you meet the long-time players right away, while you're still trying to get your bearings. So if you unfortunate enough to meet one of those I-will-not-adjust-in-the-slightest-to-give-a-newbie-a-chance players, just RP to ignore the unhelpful person like you would ignore a $%§$§% in real life and continue with getting your bearings from the friendly people.

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:21 am

Actualy I don't get the point of this thread.

You're complaining OOC because the halfling IC, cought your character IC while being in his in-game property. If you adapt this to real life he would have had every right to toss you out asap and reasoning
"I didn't know about it, so I am innocent" doesn't work infront of court neither, so that's no excuse.

I don't know about your intentions and view about roleplay, but somehow you're complaining as soon as something bad happens to your character in-game or you meet an unfriendly person. Why don't you simply accept it and stay away from the castle in future? It's their property, they've build it up in years of work (actualy RL years) so they have every right to act like they did towards treespassers.

Will you write another post after someone has robbed you or threatened to kill your character? You can't live in a big bubble protecting your character from everything harmful. RPing means -IMHO- that you should act and react like the character you're playing, in every situation occuring, whether it's "bad" for your character or it's "good".

The game would be rather.. dull if everyone liked each other and the only conflicts and exciting moments arise if a GM decides to lead a monster attack on town every once in a while.

Nop · Post by **Nop** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:03 pm

Faladron wrote: "I didn't know about it, so I am innocent" doesn't work infront of court neither, so that's no excuse.

In fact, if you can prove that there was absolutely no way you could have known about it, it is.

And if something happens to you and the owner has not posted a "keep out" sign, his is in turn liable for negligence.

Ever noted that real castles will invariably have either a barred gate or a sign "no admission" as real people tend to just walk into them in real life, too?

Faladron wrote: The game would be rather.. dull if everyone liked each other and the only conflicts and exciting moments arise if a GM decides to lead a monster attack on town every once in a while.

I think you are missing the point: It works like this
1. tell someone the rules
2. let them keep them or break them
3. treat them accordingly

1. is the job of the experienced people and you can't blame the newbie if they don't to their job.

The valid complaint is that Ilarion appeared to him as an unexpectedly unfriendly place. The key term is "unexpectedly".

You need to give people the rules. Either OOC (no way to find them) or IG.

Some people do it in a way suitable to helping newbies, others do it in a way suitable to driving them away.

We had the same discussion a while ago and I must say that this "It-will-hurt-my-roleplay-to-help-a-newbie-on-his-first-day" is annoying me to no ends. There is quite a number of people that put a lot of work into Illarion to make the game better, more interesting and in the end more attractive. I really can't stand it when some people destroy all that work in a minute by driving away newbies interested in the game before they have a chance to get their feet on the ground.

I really begin to wonder how many people are dropping in and are driven away from Illarion. Within a few weeks, this is the second time a major discussion came up on this matter. I ask myself: How many people go away quietly for each one who is disappointed enough to register with the forum and post about it?

When you meet someone again next day, be yourself, I don't care. But Newbies need support, that's a fact. And stubbornly ignoring that harms the whole community. The developers and GMs put weeks of their work into the game for you. If it's really such a great sacrifice to treat a newbie as a newbie, consider it as your one-minute contribution to the game.

Ever noted that RP needs people? We can program and script all we want to make a better game, it's all wasted if others drive away newcomers right away. I am putting all this work into Illarion so the game and community as a whole can grow, not so that a few long-time players can view their private castles in nicer graphics!

Berengar · Post by **Berengar** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:40 pm

You need to give people the rules. Either OOC (no way to find them) or IG.

He was explained the rule, that the Grey Rose castle belongs to the Grey Rose IG and is now whining on an ooc forum because he doesn't like the IG rule, that he was explained IG (as you maybe have noticed I layed emphazis on IG

). Thats why I agree with Faladron and actually don't see any point in this thread...

Some people do it in a way suitable to helping newbies, others do it in a way suitable to driving them away.

We had the same discussion a while ago and I must say that this "It-will-hurt-my-roleplay-to-help-a-newbie-on-his-first-day" is annoying me to no ends.

I absolutely agree that older players should help newbies and answer questions like "How can I attack?" , "How does the NPC work?"etc., (I can't stand the answer "Look at the forums" any more) but in which way they help them IG, or if they help at all is up to the char they are playing in my opinion. If I saw an orc slaughtering a pig with his bare hands, growling while drinking its blood and whispering something about Moshran I wouldnt ask him for the shortest way to Greenbriar