Allright, enough of the bull.
You all complain about wanting more real villains and not as many GM villains; you want to have a real war, whatever..
yet whenever any villain character tries to arise all you PG's uber-heroes cut him down before he has any skills...
Or has even committed a crime yet.
This is total bullshit. Do you want villains or not? It's nice that all of you have figured out how to PG even with the skillcap but some of us haven't and are trying to add to the game anyway. We don't need to be cut down when we aren't even doing anything, nor have done anything, whether or not you think we will..
Either smiling play characters that are not the be-all end-all hero, and let the 'bad guy' get away sometimes, especially when he has no skill and has not actually done anything but sign a piece of paper...
OR SHUT UP. No more complaining about a lack of IG villains. What, you expect us to become master fighters in a month just like you did? Sorry, I play by the rules instead of finding ways around them.
My bad.
Villains IG
Moderator: Gamemasters
The villains shouldnt declare war if they dont have power. And we sent a PM to misjbar trying to set up a time we could have an even # of member from each group meet and duke it out, but it wasnt accepted.
and with the skill cap there is no real way to powergame
and we arent master fighters, the PO of villains just dont bother to really ever train, it just seems like we're master fighters
and its been 4 or 5 months, not 1
and with the skill cap there is no real way to powergame
and we arent master fighters, the PO of villains just dont bother to really ever train, it just seems like we're master fighters
and its been 4 or 5 months, not 1
Last edited by Salathe on Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I agree with some parts, but you can't just expect someone who protects the town to say to themselves "there aren't enough villains, so Ill just let this guy go", that would be crazy, considering it's their job to find and stop these people. Though, if someone did kill you over a piece of paper, that is a bit bizarre.
Also, the IG situation makes it so that all the villains have to do the same thing, which is wait, and hide behind anonymous accounts/names and such, and it has gotten old, but it is the only way they have a chance to survive.
Also, the IG situation makes it so that all the villains have to do the same thing, which is wait, and hide behind anonymous accounts/names and such, and it has gotten old, but it is the only way they have a chance to survive.
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Devrah Liioness
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I could see the point of the villain was actually *doing anything* at the time.
Don't even pretend about 'no real way to powergame'. I know some of the ways people use, and I also know there are others. PG'd heros have made hints about it.
Either way, there will never be a war IG unless the knights and the guard duke it out, because the rest of the players, for the most part, RP instead of PvP all day.
Don't even pretend about 'no real way to powergame'. I know some of the ways people use, and I also know there are others. PG'd heros have made hints about it.
Either way, there will never be a war IG unless the knights and the guard duke it out, because the rest of the players, for the most part, RP instead of PvP all day.
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Pendar
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So let me be clear so i am not jumping off the deep end, I recall the name Marik from the synode thread.Also, the IG situation makes it so that all the villains have to do the same thing, which is wait, and hide behind anonymous accounts/names and such, and it has gotten old, but it is the only way they have a chance to survive.
Synode.
Declare war on the knights.
Attack three inocent children
Then keep mouthing of a open board declareing there names.
What else could be expected?
Done nothing the forums are most certainly part of the game if your name is boldly declared in support of murderes and war mongers. Then one cannot expect a friendly welcome in game.
How many guards are there honestly active ?because the rest of the players, for the most part, RP instead of PvP all day
Most of the knights I can beat and my skills are below that of some of the finer free lance warriors by a long shot.
I am not going to come out and defend the hero complex in Illarion I indeed play a form of hero under this account.
I am going to assume you were just annoyed when you posted this as really I find the statement I just PVP or PG above and beyond rping some what insulting.
I am sure other guards and knights with questionable skills feel the same way.
Brian
The same can be said about many guards as wellPendar wrote:What else could be expected?
Done nothing the forums are most certainly part of the game if your name is boldly declared in support of murderes and war mongers. Then one cannot expect a friendly welcome in game.
Supporting a murderer and murdering are much different things.
and i dont want to hear any complaining from anyone in the synode. You declared war on us, you said we're going to be crushed like a bug, its hard as hell finding out who the hell is in the synode anyway. Sylathe and i are going around to people we think are in teh Synode playing tricks on them to see if they react in a certain way that point out they are in the synode. With Sadare, i dont know how the person that found out his name did, i went through 4 names OOC just by looking at the players online list, which i ONLY used to see if they were on, then i search everywhere looking for them since i recognize them. And with you Marik, i know who you are because you introed yourself to durin and i !named you, and you were acting suspicous as hell at the time (and this was before synode i believe)
If you have an alternate idea to play this war, send a PM to the knights. We sent you guys one but it was turned down.
And you said Misjbar isnt playing his char anymore, Salathe doesnt know that, that doesnt mean the war is off, and your safe. If misjbar wants to quit then get him to hand down power or stop the war.
If you have an alternate idea to play this war, send a PM to the knights. We sent you guys one but it was turned down.
And you said Misjbar isnt playing his char anymore, Salathe doesnt know that, that doesnt mean the war is off, and your safe. If misjbar wants to quit then get him to hand down power or stop the war.
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John Irenicus
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An absolue unqualified posting. 
No wonder you get problems ingame.
This looks to me like a I-got-killed whine thing. I have played a long time, and yes, it is hard to play villians, but I have seen people who really made it.
The main problem always was: The "villians" had a lack of tactfulness. I have seen people signing things like "I will bring a blood rain over your town" and they wondered why they were killed or arrested. I saw people running around with black coats, speaking in riddles and threatening, of course one gets more advertent then.
There have been good villians, too, but never in the role of a bandid or a thief. Many may have the skill to play roles like that properly, but the game is simply not made for that. A thief will always need to have great skills to actually "steal" peoples equipment and if he really manages to, he will have no place to sell it. Everyone knows everyone in Illarion, no secrets are kept long. A bandid will always need to have great skills too, to rob things.
Of course, we had people in those roles, but without GM help they are never fun to play. And pushing someone just because he wants to play a villian is wrong, too.
You see a problem with skills, and powergaming. Actually, you blame all the "not-villians" to be cruel powergamers. Actually, "villian" is something else for every single person. A member of the guard of Varshikar will be a villian for a guard of Trolls Bane, and the other way round. We always have a league of high-skilled chars in every big group, so training is a must, the enemie doesn't sleep.
Finally, no one will want a war as you may thing of it. You could get some strong chars and start one, yes, but you will quickly notice that killing each other will become really boring after two nights.
We had that. One example would be the war of the Bloodskulls and Trolls Bane, short before the wipe. It had fun parts, though, but to me, it was mostly boring. Both sides just had the sake to kill each other.
No wonder you get problems ingame. This looks to me like a I-got-killed whine thing. I have played a long time, and yes, it is hard to play villians, but I have seen people who really made it.
The main problem always was: The "villians" had a lack of tactfulness. I have seen people signing things like "I will bring a blood rain over your town" and they wondered why they were killed or arrested. I saw people running around with black coats, speaking in riddles and threatening, of course one gets more advertent then.
There have been good villians, too, but never in the role of a bandid or a thief. Many may have the skill to play roles like that properly, but the game is simply not made for that. A thief will always need to have great skills to actually "steal" peoples equipment and if he really manages to, he will have no place to sell it. Everyone knows everyone in Illarion, no secrets are kept long. A bandid will always need to have great skills too, to rob things.
Of course, we had people in those roles, but without GM help they are never fun to play. And pushing someone just because he wants to play a villian is wrong, too.
You see a problem with skills, and powergaming. Actually, you blame all the "not-villians" to be cruel powergamers. Actually, "villian" is something else for every single person. A member of the guard of Varshikar will be a villian for a guard of Trolls Bane, and the other way round. We always have a league of high-skilled chars in every big group, so training is a must, the enemie doesn't sleep.
Finally, no one will want a war as you may thing of it. You could get some strong chars and start one, yes, but you will quickly notice that killing each other will become really boring after two nights.
We had that. One example would be the war of the Bloodskulls and Trolls Bane, short before the wipe. It had fun parts, though, but to me, it was mostly boring. Both sides just had the sake to kill each other.
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Garett Gwenour
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I didn't read the replies so i'll just add.
If you want to play a villianous character that's main purpose is to cause havoc and kill notable heros, then you are promoting PvP battles. If you write your characters real name, say your waging a war, say your killing people, the "heros" have no choice but to react to what your villian is doing, to not react is simply bad roleplay. What you can do is perhaps fly under the radar, like my "villian", he does jobs but he name is rarely heard and infact I have heard from the lips of the captain of the guard, "This *bleep* I have seen him once, not seen him again.". That is how you must play a villian til you have gotten enough strength and friends to actually face a Knighthood or town guard on an open field of battle.
Or you can go the other route which is to simply do what you did, begin your war with no skills, get beaten quickly and your character is forgotten and never taken seriously again.
But also remember, that when you are making a villian, ask why he/she feels this way. Why he/she thinks there is no reason to spare life. Give your character life and depth, this often gives way to far more interesting roleplay then simply, "I am a follower of Moshran and I walk in the steps of my fellow Moshranites to kill everyone." It has been over done.
If you want to play a villianous character that's main purpose is to cause havoc and kill notable heros, then you are promoting PvP battles. If you write your characters real name, say your waging a war, say your killing people, the "heros" have no choice but to react to what your villian is doing, to not react is simply bad roleplay. What you can do is perhaps fly under the radar, like my "villian", he does jobs but he name is rarely heard and infact I have heard from the lips of the captain of the guard, "This *bleep* I have seen him once, not seen him again.". That is how you must play a villian til you have gotten enough strength and friends to actually face a Knighthood or town guard on an open field of battle.
Or you can go the other route which is to simply do what you did, begin your war with no skills, get beaten quickly and your character is forgotten and never taken seriously again.
But also remember, that when you are making a villian, ask why he/she feels this way. Why he/she thinks there is no reason to spare life. Give your character life and depth, this often gives way to far more interesting roleplay then simply, "I am a follower of Moshran and I walk in the steps of my fellow Moshranites to kill everyone." It has been over done.
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Garett Gwenour
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Garett Gwenour
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Galim
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@Salathe
Boah! I will remember that.
The problem with villians is, the ones who want to play villians and say "we dont need skills, roleplay is all we need" want to playx villians who can everything. cast unholy magic to smite his foes, stomp strong warriors under their feets, and what else.
If you want to roleplay a villian without skills, than do the RIGHT roleplay for him. the sneaky one, the one out of the background. the one using lies. rumours, dark offerings and so on
Boah! I will remember that
.The problem with villians is, the ones who want to play villians and say "we dont need skills, roleplay is all we need" want to playx villians who can everything. cast unholy magic to smite his foes, stomp strong warriors under their feets, and what else.
If you want to roleplay a villian without skills, than do the RIGHT roleplay for him. the sneaky one, the one out of the background. the one using lies. rumours, dark offerings and so on
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Galim
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because noone paid yet for a good guy. Kl'urk would also chase good guys when seeing a high bounty on their head. Kl'urk isn't bad, or good. he is chaos. An anarchist. Wild and just lead by his wish to fight and his instincts.he chases people that do bad things
When he hunts someone, than because of the fun of hunting someone and slay him. unimportant if good or bad. and when he gots the alloweness to hunt and kill someone in town without a ban, hey, he is at the guys butt.
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Dónal Mason
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Ferrari Swifteye
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It’s entirely possible to play a villain, although I don't personally think I qualify as one.
It IS difficult, and the mix of OOC IC is un-bearable. But luckily in recent there has been almost no mixing of out of character and in character. It exists, its impossible to beat, even if you don't want to do it subconsciously you know that, that person is a villain and that affects your role-play. No one plays their character to such an extent as to know only information that they have learned in game.
But there are a few particular players that do an outstanding job at avoiding it. So all you have to do is find out the players that don't mix this information and role-play with them a bit more often than you do with others.
But as I understand this story there was little to no mix of information, so little of this applies.
It IS difficult, and the mix of OOC IC is un-bearable. But luckily in recent there has been almost no mixing of out of character and in character. It exists, its impossible to beat, even if you don't want to do it subconsciously you know that, that person is a villain and that affects your role-play. No one plays their character to such an extent as to know only information that they have learned in game.
But there are a few particular players that do an outstanding job at avoiding it. So all you have to do is find out the players that don't mix this information and role-play with them a bit more often than you do with others.
But as I understand this story there was little to no mix of information, so little of this applies.
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Kamik Windslasher ~
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The main problem is people starting characters and thinking: "He will be a villain". This is not right.
What makes someone a villain is a different point of view. When you make a character, you should think of his beliefs, visions of things, acts, personality... and role play him like that. Of course, characters that disagree with this will becoem your enemies and so, there, you are a villain.
I will give some examples using the characters I've played until now:
Chak' Ysshirr: The ones close to him knew of his problem, he was a berseker, and they understood that sometimes, in rage, he would become a beast. But who didn't knew him, thought of him as a monster with bloodlust.
Dominik Windslasher: He was sneaky and secretive all the time. He never showed his full expression, hiding his eyes under his hat. Many people found him suspicious... BUT! He wasn't a villain at all. And had some friends, considering the few time I played with him. He could be considered a villain only, maybe, to the Scarlet Banshees, because he killed a member once.
Kamik Windslasher: Heh. Not much to say about him. Everyone can see the mess he is making all the time although he is a good guy. He is a hero type, in Troll's Bane. He was a guard there. But in the North, Varshikar, he is a wanted man. Isn't this a kind of villain?
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, so I used them as examples. I hope it served the purpose.
Make a character, think like him, act like him. If his ways will lead him into a villain, so be it. That is my advice.
What makes someone a villain is a different point of view. When you make a character, you should think of his beliefs, visions of things, acts, personality... and role play him like that. Of course, characters that disagree with this will becoem your enemies and so, there, you are a villain.
I will give some examples using the characters I've played until now:
Chak' Ysshirr: The ones close to him knew of his problem, he was a berseker, and they understood that sometimes, in rage, he would become a beast. But who didn't knew him, thought of him as a monster with bloodlust.
Dominik Windslasher: He was sneaky and secretive all the time. He never showed his full expression, hiding his eyes under his hat. Many people found him suspicious... BUT! He wasn't a villain at all. And had some friends, considering the few time I played with him. He could be considered a villain only, maybe, to the Scarlet Banshees, because he killed a member once.
Kamik Windslasher: Heh. Not much to say about him. Everyone can see the mess he is making all the time although he is a good guy. He is a hero type, in Troll's Bane. He was a guard there. But in the North, Varshikar, he is a wanted man. Isn't this a kind of villain?
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, so I used them as examples. I hope it served the purpose.
Make a character, think like him, act like him. If his ways will lead him into a villain, so be it. That is my advice.
As far as im concered, all newbies should be forced to choose between Humans or Haflings. When i first chose Byron i knew shit on how to RP, and therefor he was the worst Orc in the game history.
Also, i think the test needs to be harder. People are walking through the front door with a thumb up their ass and two thoughts on their mind: "Be rich, be powerfull"
Here is an example. I was in the shop one day, and i think it was around the time of the kidnappings first started. People were having a conversation about how he will die, yada yada, and a dwarf cuts right in the middle of the coversation and ask: ((does anyone know how to make moneys?)).
Frankly i shouldent be talking, as i was the worst person in the game at a time. But as i reach new levels on my accounts the thoughts start to hit me: "Damn i hate newbs."
Ya, thats my thoughts of the five miniutes.
Joshua
Also, i think the test needs to be harder. People are walking through the front door with a thumb up their ass and two thoughts on their mind: "Be rich, be powerfull"
Here is an example. I was in the shop one day, and i think it was around the time of the kidnappings first started. People were having a conversation about how he will die, yada yada, and a dwarf cuts right in the middle of the coversation and ask: ((does anyone know how to make moneys?)).
Frankly i shouldent be talking, as i was the worst person in the game at a time. But as i reach new levels on my accounts the thoughts start to hit me: "Damn i hate newbs."
Ya, thats my thoughts of the five miniutes.
Joshua
I've always been a bit of a villain player, even before Illarion, even to the extent that I think ahead of time when I play a non-villain as to what would make my character go villainous. My first character was intended to be a villain, but I soon realized that the options in Illarion made him more of a grey. After I had got the hang of things, then I was able to play my first Illarion villain, who, I think at least, became part of the rogue's gallery in a way. That's the first step, really. Play Illarion, find out what you can do and what you can get away with, and *then* make your villain.
It seems to me there are a number of options as far as concept building with villains in Illarion:
Option 1 would be to create a character who has a well-developed code of ethics and morality. There are two ways of going about this from here:
A: The code of conduct is deviant as to the extent of being alien to other characters. A villain of this type is hard to understand. His actions may even seem random to those who don't know him. The important part, in this case, is for the player to be honest with himself and make sure that he holds to this code rather than just acting randomly. An example of this would be the man who lurks in the forests killing those who cause harm to nature.
B: The code of conduct is lacking in places or (even more fun) contradictory. This kind of character can seem entirely normal until he comes across one of these grey areas. This category fills the gamut from the handsome rogue who has no problem stealing but would never shed blood to the vile sorceror who would not normally inflict harm except where it benefits his search for enlightenment.
Option 2 would be the fallen character. This character has fallen on hard times in some way or fashion and this has brought his concept of morality into question. This would be your fallen paladins, impoverished bandits, etc..
Option 3 would be that the character is entirely twisted and has always been so. Be wary of choosing this one. It's not as easy playing a character who is so entirely deviant from the norm of humanity as to be entirely unaware of any other kind of life. This would be your psychopaths, such as the man who was born horribley disfigured and while trying to live the life of a simple peasant, moonlights as a murderer who disfigures the corpses of those who are disgusted by his looks by day.
I think I'll post a link to this in the RP guide.
It seems to me there are a number of options as far as concept building with villains in Illarion:
Option 1 would be to create a character who has a well-developed code of ethics and morality. There are two ways of going about this from here:
A: The code of conduct is deviant as to the extent of being alien to other characters. A villain of this type is hard to understand. His actions may even seem random to those who don't know him. The important part, in this case, is for the player to be honest with himself and make sure that he holds to this code rather than just acting randomly. An example of this would be the man who lurks in the forests killing those who cause harm to nature.
B: The code of conduct is lacking in places or (even more fun) contradictory. This kind of character can seem entirely normal until he comes across one of these grey areas. This category fills the gamut from the handsome rogue who has no problem stealing but would never shed blood to the vile sorceror who would not normally inflict harm except where it benefits his search for enlightenment.
Option 2 would be the fallen character. This character has fallen on hard times in some way or fashion and this has brought his concept of morality into question. This would be your fallen paladins, impoverished bandits, etc..
Option 3 would be that the character is entirely twisted and has always been so. Be wary of choosing this one. It's not as easy playing a character who is so entirely deviant from the norm of humanity as to be entirely unaware of any other kind of life. This would be your psychopaths, such as the man who was born horribley disfigured and while trying to live the life of a simple peasant, moonlights as a murderer who disfigures the corpses of those who are disgusted by his looks by day.
I think I'll post a link to this in the RP guide.
And that is my favorite kind. Acting without reason, inflicting pain and laughing at it are all parts of my likings. Im still working on my 'badguy' but it is commign along nicely. Thalgul seems to be my only non-twisted villian.Aegohl wrote:Option 3 would be that the character is entirely twisted and has always been so. Be wary of choosing this one. It's not as easy playing a character who is so entirely deviant from the norm of humanity as to be entirely unaware of any other kind of life. This would be your psychopaths, such as the man who was born horribley disfigured and while trying to live the life of a simple peasant, moonlights as a murderer who disfigures the corpses of those who are disgusted by his looks by day.
---
But i find this the hardest to be. As you have to stick straight to your program sheet, and no cutting corners. You cant just one day decide to be crazy, and tht next day calm and innocent.
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Meniellant
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Yeah, but actualy the things you get as a new "I want to become a fighter" ARE a black cloak and black trousers. If you roleplay that out properly, maybe add a small dagger in your belt for self protection purposes, plus friendly and polite speech then everyone will be suspicious at you right away. Pretty much pushes every new player into the villain role slightly already.John Irenicus wrote:I saw people running around with black coats, speaking in riddles and threatening, of course one gets more advertent then.
(I know what I mean, my "bad guy" got mistook for a mass murderer the very first time in-game because of those features (I admit, maybe he also cared too much for his dagger, but what's wrong cleaning it in public
). That's such a prejudice.
, I hope he will learn in time to set up a better cover though
)Agreed. Some people react irritated both in-character and out-of-character as soon as you introduce to them with a cover name and they don't get the #i thing. I do think that already affects your way of behaving towards the character allthough your character CAN'T know it's a cover name.Ferrari Swifteye wrote: It IS difficult, and the mix of OOC IC is un-bearable. But luckily in recent there has been almost no mixing of out of character and in character. It exists, its impossible to beat, even if you don't want to do it subconsciously you know that, that person is a villain and that affects your role-play. No one plays their character to such an extent as to know only information that they have learned in game.
(Who tells your character that the names others tell you which you then see after the #i thing *are* their real names anyway, they could be lieing aswell...)
Furthermore, nearly the whole population seems to be immune to dazzlers to some extend. As soon as you try to act friendly (while having your black trousers and cloak on) nearly everyone gets suspicious immidiately. I'm not complaining, my character will find a way to bypass this (maybe a new set of clothes...
) but thumbs up for the knowledge of human nature everyone in-game has.