Goldrings in Goldsmithing - Goldringe im Goldschmieden

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:05 pm

I would suggest that it is possible to melt 5 rings into one golden ingot.

The reason for this is, as a goldsmith you have soon dozens of old, bad goldrings in your bag. noone buys them, no npc, no palyer. you can't use them. But to throw them away wouldn't be right. They ARE goldrings. Noone throws gold away. So it would be great to be able to melt 5 rings (Or wahtaver follows) back into one ingot.

For beginning goldsmiths that would be a very good thing.

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Ich möchte vorschlagen das Goldschmiede in er Lage sind 5 alte Ringe wieder in einen Goldingot zu schmieden.

Der Grund dafür ist folgender. Ein Goldschmied hat schon nack kurzer Zeit dutzende Goldringe schlechter und/oder alter Qualität in seiner Truhe. Sie nehmen Platz weg, niemand kauft sie. Kein npc, kein Spieler, sie sind nutzlos. Aber wegschmeissen geht nicht, es IST immerhin Gold, niemand schmeisst Gold weg. Vom RP her ist das dumm.

Deshalb wäre es gut wenn man alte, nutzlose Ringe wiederverwerten kann.

Für beginnende Goldschmiede wäre das eine tolle sache.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:08 pm

I like the idea... why not have it for the other tools connected to smithing?

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:10 pm

i can agree with this point, i've got plenty of old and used rings that no one finds interests in but i keep them because they are of worth in a ig sense, who would spend so much time and effort creating something like rings or any other golden object (if people are making those now) just to throw it away, you can't sell it so it just sits in your depot collecting dust. i've worn a very bad golden ring for awhile now, hoping i could just break it and not feel as if it was never used but apprently they don't break easily either. I;m seconding Galims idea, for the fatc that it would be helpful to goldmsiths of minor talent.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:26 pm

My vote goes for: Make it possible to sell stuff to NPCs. This is in work but takes some time.

Goldsmithing will also change a bit (if there is time for this...) soon.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:28 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote: Goldsmithing will also change a bit (if there is time for this...) soon.

Sorry to post it here, it is the best place i beleive...

With all the changes that are planned to take place.. will there be another char wipe

?

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:31 pm

This is in work but takes some time.

Goldsmithing will also change a bit (if there is time for this...) soon.

That is it. "it takes time" "if there is time"

and that means? in many month?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:42 pm

No, no new wipe (too soon

). The wipe had technical(!) reasons, it did not happen because some production stuff was changed.

To your question, Galim: Basic work is done. There exists a detailed list for every new trader. Currently, I am working on the prices and this is damn hard. We have a total of 839 items I have to take into account. Every item has certain properties and I do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past.

So, gimme 2-3 weeks, the final scripting not included.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:48 pm

okay *starts the timeclock*

We speak us in three weeks

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:10 pm

Here's a real proposal:

...

...

Make Galim buy nuggets for 25 coins each.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:04 pm

All 99 armor parts and 118 weapons done ^_^

Delakaniam · Post by **Delakaniam** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:26 pm

*sigh*. Poor Estralis

.

As a note, my vote goes in positive for this proposal.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:15 am

I do not agree. Why would tailors make cloaks that no one buys? Shouldn't poorly made cloaks or any other cloth item have the option of makine a smaller item or using it for trimming? Theoreticallno one would throw away material because it, in real life, would be able to use again.

If a carpenter makes a large shield, couldn't this somehow be scrapped and used for more applications?

I feel Estralis solution will solve the problem.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:21 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:I do not agree. Why would tailors make cloaks that no one buys? Shouldn't poorly made cloaks or any other cloth item have the option of makine a smaller item or using it for trimming? Theoreticallno one would throw away material because it, in real life, would be able to use again.

If a carpenter makes a large shield, couldn't this somehow be scrapped and used for more applications?

You're aware that what you wrote makes no sense?

"Hey, it's logical, so let's just take the unlogical variant"

No. Sorry, but I think Galim's proposal here is good. Just as your (unintended) proposals are (about tailors and carpenters). Common smiths should be able to smelt items for residual metal. Reusing material should generally be possible, for pretty much any craft where it makes sense.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:31 am

The problem is, any reuse of material would cut into the sale of raw materials, even if you only get a minor part of the amount you originally needed for the scrapped item.
So the reused material had to at least be of a lower quality then the original item. Like in real life: Noone would ever make quality items from just scrap metal. Because scrap metal will never have the required grade of purity.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:57 pm

Adano, for one Ring you need 5 nuggets. because 5 nuggets can be melt in one ingot and that in one ring. 5 rings could be melt into one ingot too, so that means you have to use 25 nuggets to make 5 rings which you melt into one ingot. there is no danger for the rawmaterialsupplie. It wouldjust be a help to have a not so full depot without doing the non logical rp with throwing goldrings away. and its a help for goldsmithes, beleive me, goldsmithing is dman hard. we make 50 rings and just get the skill, do you know how long you need to get rawmaterial for 50 rings?

Cliu, when tailoring a shoe the leather is cut into a form, for shoes. its not so easy to use that formed leather to make a glove or a hat out of it. its cut, it can't be changed into a raw form again. metall or gold CAN be changed, it can be melted. you understand the difference?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:33 pm

Adano Eles wrote:The problem is, any reuse of material would cut into the sale of raw materials, even if you only get a minor part of the amount you originally needed for the scrapped item.
So the reused material had to at least be of a lower quality then the original item. Like in real life: Noone would ever make quality items from just scrap metal. Because scrap metal will never have the required grade of purity.

Remelted metal does not reduce quality, it will loose its temper or work hardening but thats to be expected. In real life at least in the USA, many liberty ships used during WW2 are scrapped and remelted for their good quality steel. The scrap of 9/11 was used to make parts of a ship that was just made. I watched a show on the history channel not long ago about reclaiming metal, and foundries recycle steel from buildings and ships, aluminum from long dead airplanes.

Misjilah · Post by **Misjilah** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:34 pm

Gro'bul, that is now. I do not think they had the technique back then to reclaim the material that pure.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:40 pm

As far as I know gold is gold and don't lack quality or purity when melted again.

Its not so hard as other metalls, it is easier to be melted again.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:44 pm

We're not specifically talking about gold.
Anyway, gold is almost never used pure, because in this state it's way to soft.
And if you mix random scrap metals together, regardless of what kind of metal, you will get something with completely unpredictable properties. Hence, scrap metals are usually mixed with fresh metal.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:17 pm

Misjilah wrote:Gro'bul, that is now. I do not think they had the technique back then to reclaim the material that pure.

Well, they couldn't melt iron dropping it into a furnace back then let alone in a crucible, we however can amazingly do this somehow in Illarion with a tiny furnace with a few coals. Illarion's iron has a lower melting point I guess.
@Adano: Yes, they usually are, but what would be classified as fresh metal? Iron ore? Most scrap from what I've seen is melted in an electric arc furnace with the purer metal peices, then poured. I don't think anyone would bother mixing scrap with an iron ingot and melting it into one ingot, recycling would be a great big waste of time.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:24 pm

Sure you are right, but this discussion is going away from my initial point anyway. Every unit of recycled material is one unit of raw material you do not buy, dropping the prizes even more.
It's really not how it is made, it's just that scrap metals are worth less then "fresh" ones because they are already refined with additions. For this reason, and to upkeep the urge to buy raw materials for high quality goods I propose that if you get the ability to recycle your old junk, you get lower quality material and just cannot produce the same quality as with raw materials.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:03 pm

Just make it scrap metal can be only used to make plates, or tool metal then? It seems like a techincal problem. 1 iron ore = 1 iron ingot/plate, 1 iron ore + scrap = 2 plates?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:58 pm

Recycling in Illarion?

God damn tree hugging hippies! (just kidding)

Honestly, I cannot see the benefit of this idea. I mean, nobody will forge items just to recycle them. So, the only things that would be recycled are a) bad items that would break soon b) monster dropped stuff. For gameplay reasons, I still would propose (no, I am preparing it) that one can sell stuff instead of throwing it away.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:33 pm

Well, goldsmithing is different from the other crafts. even as bad work the gold still has a value, and because of roleplay noone would throw the gold away. so i still hope that idea, to melt them, is in work

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:08 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:Honestly, I cannot see the benefit of this idea. I mean, nobody will forge items just to recycle them.

That's what we'd call bad roleplaying, last time I checked.
However, it does not mean this has no use for roleplaying.

As right now it's more attractive to play fighter characters simply out of simplicity, because no, I do not feel like finding out in game. Why? I do not adhere to Illarion's logic. I'd rather see it go the whole nine yards of realism, or not be realistic at all. But that's just me speaking.

So, the only things that would be recycled are a) bad items that would break soon b) monster dropped stuff.

Correct, that would be the proper form of roleplaying, as you normally recycle trash.

Estralis Seborian wrote:For gameplay reasons, I still would propose (no, I am preparing it) that one can sell stuff instead of throwing it away.

That's great!
But excuse me, why does that promptly mean "no" to recycling?
Nobody ever said they expect it tomorrow, nor did anybody say that in reality you can either sell items or recycle them (huh?).

Dear Fates, what is up with everybody lately?

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:15 pm

Galim, you can take yellow cloth from a yellow cloak and cut it for another use, namly a trim on some other cloak.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:21 pm

I had a re-thought...

That would give rise to powergaming... you could gain skill over and over by recycling and re-using...

I propose that skill drops if you recycle.. [RP reason--> you're so distraught that you turned your work into rubbish]... by the same amount that y;ll gain when you remake it

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:24 pm

Hadrian, since you can only make ONE bar with five rings the skill gained will be very minimal.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:39 pm

But you could power game it.... and still it would give the goldsmiths an unfair advantage...

Too open to abuse

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:40 pm

25 nuggets = 5 golden ingots = 5 goldrings = 1 ingot.

Read and understand hadrian.