age based stat points

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:47 am

Alirhgt, I doubt this will get much support, it'd only be for realism, but here it is.
(note, all comparisons below are based on humans)
The stat points you get at character creation should be affected by age. a 14 year old will have less strength, but wil lprobably be more agile than a 25 year old. A 55 year old will be more intelligient and have an overall betetr mind than a 30 year old, though will be quite a bit weaker, and wil lhave eyes that dont work as well. Thus, like race, age should affect min and max stats. BY this, I mean that a 70 year old human will probably have something like minimum of 5 intelligience and essence and 6 willpower rather than 3 and 4, respectively, but will have probably about 2 min strength, agility, dexterity, and perception, and constitution. Wheras a 14 year old would have the opposite modifiers.

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:06 am

What is the advantage of this proposal for the game and gameplay?
I don't see any.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:49 am

it'd only be for realism, but here it is.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:51 am

This will never come into place or even be considered, until a majority can agree on stressing devs to have character aging implemented. Alot of people opposed character aging (an old proposal) because, well, they are attached to their characters and can't bear with the thought of seeing their characters grow old and venerable while they go on hiatus from Illarion for a few months. Besides, time flows at the rate of 6 game days per real life day. Illarion's active in-game timeline merely reaches from year 0 to 15 now, so, age would not have become any major issue as of yet.

Finally, I'd have to agree with Aragon.
There are just so many things this game could use more than realism concerning age.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:34 pm

That's the point though. The entire Illarion history is 12-15 years. Aging would only effect people who are really young, and really old. For someone who is like 20-30-40, it is irrelevant. An aging system is almost pointless.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:51 pm

I dont mean an aging system. i only want it base don your starting age. That's where the effect would be.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:50 pm

That abstract term called "common sense" kind of caused me to automatically give elderly characters of mine better mental than physical attributes, and vice versa for younger characters. I'm pretty positively sure other people have done the same too. Besides, how would this serve realism if characters don't technically "age" anyway, other than through the roleplaying of the players behind the characters?

I think implementing this proposal would be a waste of time.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:55 pm

It wouldnt be too hard to implement though. And though common sense would affect what you'd choose,the min and maxes are still race based. A strong 60 year odl is possible, but it wouldnt be able to be as strong as someone in their prime.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:10 pm

If people use common sense in character creation, characters should be like this anyway.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:18 pm

There is something about the skills and age as people grow up.. it hasn't been implemented yet

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:26 pm

falco1029 wrote:A strong 60 year odl is possible, but it wouldnt be able to be as strong as someone in their prime.

Says who? Says you?

There are absolutely top-fit geezers, as well as there are sickly children. That's why I'm leaning towards this proposal being silly. As you said, the races already funnel out distinction. Even more? Please, this is fantasy, not The Sims: High-Fantasy Gold Edition®.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:There is something about the skills and age as people grow up.. it hasn't been implemented yet

Or it's still under revision whether it should be implemented or not. Any suggestions on how exactly that would work and be agreeable to all players?

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:47 pm

Your arguments can be turned against you in that if you use that, then that should be applied to races too, and all races should be able to have any stat, 1-20, on their attributes.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:53 pm

Not at all. I did not state they could burst their natural limits.

The stockier, shorter build of dwarves is nowhere comparable to the even shorter, lighter build of halflings, or the generally tall, more frail apparition of the elvenkind.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:25 pm

Moirear Sian wrote:Not at all. I did not state they could burst their natural limits.

The stockier, shorter build of dwarves is nowhere comparable to the even shorter, lighter build of halflings, or the generally tall, more frail apparition of the elvenkind.

Elvenkind are ALL old... compared to the other races... the lower limit is 100... and the higher is about 6000.... so i think it is all down to age

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:30 pm

Old compared to the other races only. A 1000 year old Elf does not see himself as being old.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:42 pm

I meant an old being for their race. Obviously a 1000 year old elf will actualyl be in his prime rather than being so crippled he couldnt move

And as for bursting natural limit,s again, you contradict yourself, since a very old man, unless magically upkept, could not possibly be as strong as the strongest 20 year old. ALl of your arguments can be thrown back into your face.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:54 am

falco1029 wrote:And as for bursting natural limit,s again, you contradict yourself,

Why do I contradict myself falco? Explain to me where I'm contradicting myself. Because you'd probably be putting more thought into that than into proposals of yours like the one you used here to spam up this forum section.

What you're saying is, in literature, considered the "captain paradox". You can't reverse things and put them into the light of truth:

• A captain is sailing through a foggy ocean, and has not crashed into any islands, therefore he's sailing the right way
• A captain crashes into an island, therefore he has sailed the wrong way.

One is true, the other is questionable. Think, then post.

falco1029 wrote:since a very old man, unless magically upkept, could not possibly be as strong as the strongest 20 year old.

It's not the rule, but the exceptions make the rule. What you're saying is nonsense. As I said there are topfit geezers or sickly children. In case you're not reading what I write, I've officially just repeated myself. If you don't believe me, look around in the real world. Yes, step outside of the front door of your home, and look around in the real world. You'll see what I'm saying is not false.

falco1029 wrote:ALl of your arguments can be thrown back into your face.

You can't tell me that there are halflings that are the size of humans, or that there are dwarves as frail as elves. Just look at the artwork of the character avatars in the game, read their descriptions on Moonsilver, and you'll see there are significant distinguishments, just like you used them in a different proposal of yours (have you forgotten your own proposals or are you trying to prove how little thought and importance you put into them?).

Finally, I still disagree on age making differences in attributes, if characters already do not "age" in terms of the client.

And even if "all my arguments can be thrown back in my face", this does not make your proposal any more worthwhile...

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:06 am

Moirear Sian wrote:It's not the rule, but the exceptions make the rule. What you're saying is nonsense. As I said there are topfit geezers or sickly children. In case you're not reading what I write, I've officially just repeated myself. If you don't believe me, look around in the real world. Yes, step outside of the front door of your home, and look around in the real world. You'll see what I'm saying is not false. |

You can't tell me that there are halflings that are the size of humans, or that there are dwarves as frail as elves. Just look at the artwork of the character avatars in the game, read their descriptions on Moonsilver, and you'll see there are significant distinguishments, just like you used them in a different proposal of yours (have you forgotten your own proposals or are you trying to prove how little thought and importance you put into them?).

You see, if there can be age-based outliers, there can also be race-based outliers. I'm sorry if you dont know basic bilogy, but when you are past your prime, your sells repdroduce slower than they die, and this is what causes aging. Yes, there can be topfit geezers, but there can not be topfit geezers that are as fit as a 21 year old who's in top shape. Thus only 1 or two points are taken off, you can still have an old guy with 17 strength (humanwise), which is about as strong as you'll ever find an old guy.

As for race, as Is aid, if there are age outliers that max beyond physical capabilities. I am not saying that I agree that we shoudl be able to have halflings with 19 strength, i am saying that if we have old guys with 19 strength, then there can be halflings like that as well.

In conclusion, you are just repeating yourself and making me tell you how you are wrong again and again, please just give up already!

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:25 am

I know basic biology falco, I also know cases of old folks that are more fit than people that are 21, regardless of what mathematics or "facts" of slower cell reproduction tell us. That's why there are "fringe" sciences, because idiots like you refuse to believe there are things we cannot understand. You obviously can't understand or accept that your proposal here was utterly dumb.

I won't back down and admit that this proposal of yours is any good, because it simply isn't.

And it is still simply a waste of time.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:21 am

Moirear Sian wrote:I know basic biology falco, I also know cases of old folks that are more fit than people that are 21, regardless of what mathematics or "facts" of slower cell reproduction tell us. That's why there are "fringe" sciences, because idiots like you refuse to believe there are things we cannot understand. You obviously can't understand or accept that your proposal here was utterly dumb.

Looking at this makes me laugh. You call me an idiot when you are obviously being much more ignorant here, and you obviously dont know what you are talking about. yes, an old man can be stronger than a 21 year old. However, the maximum strength that a young body can have is greater than the maximum strength of an old man, pure and simple. I can not explain it any further to make morons like you understand. If you respond to this, make it more than a "No you=wrong and I right you idiot!!!111" type argument.

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:25 am

So you are any less ignorant than me for ignoring the things I wrote?

This is still not changing the quality of your proposal...

Edit: Here was your original proposal, with which you justified this thread:

falco1029 wrote:Alirhgt, I doubt this will get much support, it'd only be for realism, but here it is.
(note, all comparisons below are based on humans)
The stat points you get at character creation should be affected by age. a 14 year old will have less strength, but wil lprobably be more agile than a 25 year old. A 55 year old will be more intelligient and have an overall betetr mind than a 30 year old, though will be quite a bit weaker, and wil lhave eyes that dont work as well. Thus, like race, age should affect min and max stats. BY this, I mean that a 70 year old human will probably have something like minimum of 5 intelligience and essence and 6 willpower rather than 3 and 4, respectively, but will have probably about 2 min strength, agility, dexterity, and perception, and constitution. Wheras a 14 year old would have the opposite modifiers.

Furthermore.

falco1029 wrote:you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

I could say the same about you.

falco1029 wrote:yes, an old man can be stronger than a 21 year old.

falco1029 wrote:However, the maximum strength that a young body can have is greater than the maximum strength of an old man, pure and simple.

Are you sure?
Click on this link and tell me you have analyzed all these human beings:
http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:12 am

Listen, alright. The simple biology of how cells work explains that an odl person cant be stronger than one in their prime. Here's why:

Say a human could support X muscle at optimum conditions.

Human A is in their prime. Human B is about 75.

Lets say that both Human A and Human B achieve X muscle. Human A would keep it. However, since Human B's cells are dieing faster than they reproduce, Human B has X-some small amount muscles very soon after, and this is ignoring the fact that an old person's fram would be deteriorating as well, so they couldnt hold X muscle. Therefore, someone in their prime wil lbe able to have more msucle than someone who is very old. There's my proof, where's yours saying there are outliers?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:58 am

The bottom line is, its more work than its worth.
Realism

good

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:16 am

I cant see it being anymore work than having each race have seperate stats...

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:25 pm

Falco. In case you haven't noticed yet, I was not arguing whether it was realistic or not. Maybe you don't know my history on these forums—but I have always been a supporter of implementing aging effects. Many people do not agree with it, however, as I've written now several times. So regardless of realism or not: If a majority says no, the devs take that "no". Convince the majority of naysayers that we need this, and then it's something viable and necessary for implementation. Maybe these naysayers are silently accepting your proposal, or maybe they are just too tired to bother commenting on your every other underdeveloped proposal. I don't know—ask them. Rather than treating me like an idiot, consider that I read your proposal, took it seriously, and commented several times on it. If anything, consider me an idiot for having done just that.

Furthermore.

falco1029 wrote:I cant see it being anymore work than having each race have seperate stats...

One thing is already in place, the other is not. And, I've yet to see someone argue that the racial attribute limits need to be lifted and that all races should be able to take the stats 1-20 on every attribute, regardless of anything.
Your proposal, however, is not being supported by anybody here, as far as I can see it. And it is not in place.
As it is not in place—
pre-planning*, work time and nerves required for:
programming age-based attribute limit modifications > leaving this as it is

*pre-planning: Re-read your proposal. You're supposed to say how it would work (exactly), not something that in essence says no more than "this would be cool." The latter leaves no room for discussion because the proposal is underdeveloped.

Finally, think carefully whether such a thing might not have been proposed before already. There is the list of items for things that *might* come in the future planted upon the main website of Illarion, and there is the search function, with which you could find the threads where this would fit into, rather than spamming up this forum section to the point of disorganization.

I hope I've made myself clear enough this time.

falco1029 · Post by **falco1029** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:59 pm

I dont see how it's underdevloped. i explained how it would work. I explained why it'd be realistic. I explained why it'd be good to have. FIne, if others dont like it then I geuss it won't happen, and our argument here has been pointless.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:07 pm

It is underdeveloped because you have not provided any real figures to try and back of the proposal. What would you consider old for a dwarf, or a halfling? Could you take the halfling minimum strength down any further than 1?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:09 pm

Donal Has a point...

Elves live for 6000+ years,,, the limit is from 100 years....

What is 'old' for you?