Balancing

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:46 pm

There is a bit of a problem regarding skills... as every newbie has few skills and therefore can only produce [crafting] certain limited items...
Therefore the more experinced player seems to get all the work and sales, while the newbie has to give up...

For example my character is only able to produce bowls and plates, in the beginning... who buys bowls and plates??? who even has a use for them... the halflings i have been told; however if they were bought, they wouldn't get much profit... eventually the tool breaks, you are bankrupt and ect....

The only limit which prevents the more experinced players from reaching igh riches it the fact that NPCs carry limited amounts of materials...

My suggestion--> Give practicle items able to be produced for the newbies, so that they may actually make somthing and sell it to fund them furthur

Make more experienced players 'forget' how to produce simple items, [as they are too proud or something], this creates a number of markets where all seem to be equal...

There are a HUGE number of carpenters present, how is a new one supposed to earn a living? you have one experinced who gets all the sales ect...

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:53 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote: My suggestion--> Give practicle items able to be produced for the newbies, so that they may actually make somthing and sell it to fund them furthur

In work. I agree with you.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:Make more experienced players 'forget' how to produce simple items, [as they are too proud or something], this creates a number of markets where all seem to be equal...

I disagree, sounds demotivating. From my first day as GM, I always tried to give the players something, taking something from them does not improve motivation IMHO.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:56 pm

There are two craftsmen... one is a newbie who has just started making items... and the other is a pro...

Both wish to sell the same item to the same person [it happens all the time]... the pro can afford to sell it cheap as he knows he can make greater profits selling the more complex items... so the newbie ends up selling nothing...

If the pros 'forgot' how to create a particular item; they'd be more work for the newbie and the newbies could compete on the same ground....

So you could have different markets for different items... ie if you need something simple ask someone new... if you dont.... ask someone pro.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:49 pm

This would devoid the market of any high quality low skill items. If a rich person wanted very good plates for some even such as a wedding, they simply wouldn't exist.

Evok · Post by **Evok** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:15 am

Nun, leider ist s wahren Leben ja auch so, dass ein Neuling es sehr schwer hat sich in einem Umfeld von Profis zu behaupten. Die meisten gehen zugrunde (wirtschaftlich, manchmal auch medizinisch). Deshalb wäre es gut, wenn ein Neuling erst eine echte Ausbildung machen muss, um etwas zu lernen. Er müsste also dem Schmied helfen um darasu zu lernen, wie man schmiedet. umgekehrt muss der Schmied eine "zweite Hand" benötigen, sonst kann er nicht arbeiten. Er ist also gezwungen jemanden aufzunehmen.
Ein Problem hierbei seh ich jedoch: Es könnten sich zwei Fortgeschrittene zusammen tun und produzieren. Oder es gibt zuwenige, die einen bestimmten Beruf ausüben wollen. Aber da sollte die Nachfrage die Produktion bestimmen. Hier also auch einfache Gegenstände wichtig und notwendig machen, damit sie auch gekauft werden.

Erart Ridoc · Post by **Erart Ridoc** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:08 am

Grrr, I work hard on making erart a great craftsman, It would not be good for him to forget such simple things, besides they are all scetches, least thats how I rp em, I wouldnt lose scetches MUAHAHAHA

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:10 am

I think that the swordhandles are something that should come earlier available to carpenters.

Last time I checked I thought swords would be the most common melee weapon, but I guess axes are the new things these days; although I might add, axes are quite barbaric in appearance.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:54 pm

Erart Ridoc wrote:Grrr, I work hard on making erart a great craftsman, It would not be good for him to forget such simple things, besides they are all scetches, least thats how I rp em, I wouldnt lose scetches MUAHAHAHA

That is the problem... you seem to be able to give items to everyone.. and the rest of us have no chance... [who knows were you get those things]

To Gro'bul-->You could have high quality low skill... i was not suggesting they forget THAT quickly... all i meant is the things are replaced... you can either make axe handles or mace handles or staff handles... thats it; one or the other... to create a few markets

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:09 pm

Seems worthless to me. Different handles aren't much different, and an expert would find it easy to remember how each is made.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:12 pm

that is true... but if the best could create everything... it would suppress the others

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:13 pm

The best should charge more for their crafted items. After all, they are of higher quality.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:17 pm

But the others can afford to lower the price... the poor new ones cant...

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:33 pm

There's an old strategy I remember some of the crafters in the last client having used. They first give out simple freebie items to certain people, just in order to attract those people as future customers. Then work their way up from lowest net income for single items, all the way to master, then selling high-priced items. Although there was no quality ratings then—some people *cough* RPed differences to be there, depending on the craftspeople and pricing, etc.

Dónal Mason wrote:The best should charge more for their crafted items. After all, they are of higher quality.

I agree. Last client was sometimes troubled by people just handing out freebies all the time. Being nice to Newbies doesn't mean doing absurd favors for their characters, which your character could never justify in a realistic sense, after all, this is supposed to be a roleplaying game.

But there's not really any proposal I can think of, that would fix player behaviour.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:40 pm

Shouldn't the new crafting system remove the "high skill, cheap product" problem to an extend by replacing the success rate improvements with quality improvements?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:57 pm

The problem is newbies find it hard to get started in a skill, where everyone seems to be already better than them... how are they supposed to make a living...

I know its roleplay, but its CRUEL.... cant there be specialists in a certain field of crafts, example bows or swords only... so nobody is good at everything...

In practice--> there exists the best carpenter [a halfling] and the best smith [a lizard]... between them, they pretty much dominate the markets... there are others, but they seem to sell the cheapest... why? because they can afford to....

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:58 pm

What I fail to understand is why this is an issue and not roleplayed with. In medieval times as in modern day, there are rich and there are poor. There are fortunate and unfortunate. There are masters and novices.

None of my characters were ever rich or on top ends of anything. Do I care? It's not a competition to be the best, although some take it exactly for that. Neither is wrong, you're just unfortunate that some people beat you to it. That doesn't mean you can't roleplay with that, or that you could not found an in-game community of sorts to rationalize the market, some union or other guild to ensure fair trade and competition in crafting.

Erart Ridoc · Post by **Erart Ridoc** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:03 pm

Also you must understand that some people want to be the best at a craft. Like my halfling, there roleplay is that compition of being the best. Me and Faldron rp all the time trying to steal each others business and things. Un Balanced doesnt mean no roleplay

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:14 pm

Correct, if everything was "perectly balanced", it would surely be a nice game, but this wouldn't be ideal for roleplaying.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:10 am

Hadrian, not even all of the systems and bugs have been solved. Even games like WoW had alot of bugs and still do to be sorted out, and that game costs 50$! Everyone is a noob in this client yet, and noone knows everything yet. This game takes time, time time timety time. Best advice I can give is to repeatedly listen to Pink Floyd-comfortably numb and GN'R-Patience.

Callmmmm down............deeeeeep breeaattthhh.

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:35 am

A few points,
Currently in game a little money goes a long way, so selling a sword for 20 coins is more than acceptable profit.
>LizardX< is not online all the time.
I am a smith and as soon as I can make sword blades and purchase handles. Even if i pay 5 coins for a handle a sword should sell for around 20 coins.
LizardX will sell his swords for 30-50 as his quality will be better than my swords.
Similarly handles many new smiths need a large number of handles but cant pay for the good quality "3coin+" ones the better crafters make. Bring me 50 questionable handles for 75 coin you would have a sale.

When good armor is costing well under 250 coins, one doesnt need to make much to get by.
In time perhaps a carpentar will find a guild he supplys or some one looking to buy in bulk say 400 arrows. Then you will make large sums of gold.

The old client money was a joke, I use to throw ingots around as I never needed them. If i lost my armor i had 2 more sets and when I didnt I could find,borrow or beg some in a days play.
Trust me things are sooo much better now

.
More over it is a hard world, Pendar is a warrior by trade a smith by oppurtunity but he makes a humble living mineing.
Thats rp

some people *cough* RPed differences to be there, depending on the craftspeople and pricing, etc.

Indeed I know when and if coin becomes plentiful I would pay a certain smith a large sum of coin to smith me armor and RP it as unique in some way.
Custom weapons to would if rped well cost far more to smith a sword with gems set in the hilt and such.

Its awesome
Brian

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:16 pm

The problem is... people dont help by their rping...

Example --> [true story]

I was trying to buy a bow from someone... and this other character repeatadly told me that "e**** r*****" is the best craftsman on the island...

How is this other person supposed to make a living, if everyone is scaring away the customers...

There are masters and novices... but if the masters supress the novices... there will be only few left

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:52 am

Novices sell their lesser quality wares cheaper than the master's high quality ones.

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:04 am

The problem is... people dont help by their rping

Untrue entirely, I have yet to buy a battle staff from this halfling in question as he refuses to sell me one at under 40 coins. So I need a lesser crafter right now.
It is just not a problem to me any way
Brian

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook · Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:20 am

Many people will buy from friends in preference to other better crafters. Friends will often give better deals to each other thereby helping everyone.
Also there are people who will buy from whoever happens to be selling at the time. No point being the best craftsman if you are not on the spot to make the sale.....

Erart Ridoc · Post by **Erart Ridoc** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:44 pm

Dat the reason Pendar? Well price has increased to 150 copper jk

Stealing away business is one of the bests parts of rp. Why should you be the best at something then let lesser craftsmen take away your business? You are a craftsmen/woman your in it to make money, that is why you make your goods, is it to sit around and let lesser craftsmen take your business? No, its to steal the business from all your competition. You say there is no rp in that? Then I say you must have a very small view of how grand rp can truely be.

Oh and having other characters say that a certain character is the best on the island. Well thats just satisfied customers

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:39 pm

Erart Ridoc wrote: Oh and having other characters say that a certain character is the best on the island. Well thats just satisfied customers

The 'satisfied customer' repeats things permemantly... she is Killing rp.... makes me kind of think you actually paid her.... she makes other craftsman angry

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:04 pm

No, praising a craftsman for good work is not killing RP. It is the opinion of a character, and no matter how you feel about it, you cannot change it. A goof roleplayer could easily make RP out of a situation like that.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:07 pm

Praising is one thing... advertising is another

Here's how the conversation went

E.S--> ....bright bow... where can i get one
(elfess)--> E* is the best craftsman on the island
T.A---> I can make bows
(elfess)--> but not of the same quality of E*
T.A.---> How do you know???
(elfess)--> E* is the best craftsman on the island

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:10 pm

It is not killing RP. In fact, it opens up a lot more RP. The elfess could accuse of the 'advertiser' of being paid, or even being biased. People don't like substandard goods. If you had the choice between a really good bow, or a mediocre bow, which would you choose?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:15 pm

Thats the problem... nobody wants a mediocar bow... nobody buys from newbies...

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