race weapon weaknesses

[falco1029]

For a touch of added realism,. I think that each race should have some weapon weaknesses or resistances (Im pretty sure they currently dont, if they do, then just delete this, it's unimportant). I think they should look like this:

Humans, elves, lizards- none either way, nothing that would affect it.

orcs/dwarves- slight resistance to blunt because of their stronger build, but sligh weakness to piercing, because of their bigger build (so a perception/dexterity based weapon, like a dagger would hit them better).

halflings-Opposite of above, for opposite reasons.


I think this would be more realistic and wouldnt be too hard to implement if what I have heard is correct (that race statistics are easy to change). And if I am wrong, and they ARE implemented, as I said, please delete this. It just seems like there isnt.

[Galim]

I see no realistic in that, sorry o_O. why should you be better to hit a dwarf with a rapier than with a sword or axe?

you hurt every race on the same way when you stab them with a dagger. or an axe...there is no difference...it will HURT

[falco1029]

it may hurt, but different amounts. I explained why each race would have what weakness and resistance. With ones that i couldnt see any, I left them alone.

[Jeremy Gems Willowbrook]

Why would a dwarfs bigger build make them more susceptible to a punctrure weapon? Surely their denser musculature would make such weapons less effective?

Halflings are smaller and harder to hit...so should take less damage from ALL weapons....

[Pendar]

If we really want to talk realism when dealing with weapons then build has little to do with it. Sure if you are 7ft between the eyes and built like four ox carts you may be a little slower. How ever people wanting realism of that nature will have no doubt lowered there agility accordingly.
The nature of weapons and combat leans far more towards what weapon and fighting style than some ones height.
The client all ready allows for this and the combat system is changing all the time "war hammers hitting two squares" suddenly and such.

If you want a dagger fighter train dodge and have a very dex/ag based character. I assure you any dwarf or orc will be suseptible to your dagger or rapier then.
The main problem is that currently we are saying balance the combat system please, yet many players are currently designing characters as the perfect warrior or mage or crafter in accordance with there needs.
I certainly have, how ever upon reflection I now also see how having a character who is relatively strong,agile,pereceptive with decent dexterity in an attempt to "fit in" with a rather strange combat system. Is also what makes the combat system so hard for the devs to find a balance.

I had a good hard think about the combat system in general and it was then that I realised what a complex little system it is. Take one weapon with a certain value, now apply that weapon against another with its own values. It is rather large equation on it is on when you factor in the individuals stats. Now multiply that through the 30+ weapons in game. The mind boggles....well mine did.

What we need to try and escape is the best weapons being the double axe,war hammer and battle staff. The only way to do that would be to give weapons a set value and then multipliers per stat.
How ever this as stated is no easy task, especially when many warriors have all high warrior stats.
So of course the end solution would be a character creator that lowers agility in relation to strength. As no one is 6ft built like a body builder and fast as track athlete.
But then you look at how badly this community takes changes if one judges by the reaction to the wipe and new features implemented.
Basically the developers have my sympathy and admiration with regard to combat in general.
This was a long answer to your proposal but I suppose at base what I am saying is that the answer to balance of combat in game is not to weaken or disadvantage some groups. It is instead to look towards a system were by all weapons can be utelised allowing almost any build to find a weapon they can profiecently wield and be affective in PVP combat dependant on there skills not there double axe.
Brian

[Bloodhearte]

Realism is a picky issue, I don't like it anymore.

I mean, you'll get 5 people that say, "big muscle men are slower than smaller people because they have more mass."

And you'll get 5 other people that say, "big muscle men should be faster because the muscle they have launches them from the ground quicker than smaller people."

Race weapon weaknesses would just be another variable in the already messy world of the combat system. I say just keep things going the way they're going.

And if we want implementations, let's borrow from other game concepts too. Not enough people get feedback from other games rather than reality.

[Moirear Sian]

Actually, contrary to what some have written, I do see the "realism" Falco put into this proposal. The skeletal frame of a halfling for example is not the same as that of an orc.

Regardless, what I don't like about this proposal is that it divides the rift between races and combat even more. Believe it or not, but alot of elves, and halflings already seem to have some sort of disadvantage in combat (although, don't ask me why or what this is, it's just a superstition of mine). Also, what I don't like about it, is that we expand an old and familiar issue of illarion.

Are people quickly switching armor types depending on their opponent's weapons a known thing to you? We'd have something similar with this proposal here. Differences would in fact be even worse: You look at a character graphic of someone, switch to the fitting weapon type, and voilà, you already have that unnecessary advantage. As for switching armor types depending on the enemy's weaponry, that enemy has to use a #me describing the weapon in the first place so you even know about it.

Whereas this will favor the hack'n'slashers over the RPers even more.

[Gro'bul]

Proposal, but what the hell is the point? Explain in a few exact well thought out sentances what good this is. There are no such thing as physical resistances, you get hit with a knife you get hit with a knife, you can't "resist" the damage. The "resistances" are basically set in the minimum attributes for the races. Dwarves have minimum 5 strength? There ya go. Also remember realism does not equal good. If making something realistic enhances the game, the good thing is enhancing the game, not the realism.

[Bloodhearte]

I can see where the realism bug bites though.

I played a game about a year and a half ago called Mafia. I liked it tons better than those slapstick GTA games because it had more realism to it...enemies would take cover in gun fights, a switchblade pWned bare fists, police wouldn't crawl all over you if nobody saw you kill somebody in an alley, etc.

But that's because the fun came from being more of a "simulation" where you could succeed in oppressing, realistic environments.

Illarion doesn't fit the realism category. It better fits the oldskool role playing games where you saw things from a bird's eye view.

[falco1029]

I am not proposing big resistances, as some of you seem to think. Tiny ones. Ones that make a difference but not too much of one. Also, you'll note that for every resistance there is an equal but opposite weakness with this , so no one gets any more advantages.

[Moirear Sian]

Do you think someone who already plays like a hack'n'slasher rather than a RPer will care about how tiny an advantage is, or do you think they will exploit as many "tiny" advantages as they can, regardless of it?

[Bloodhearte]

I am not proposing big resistances, as some of you seem to think. Tiny ones. Ones that make a difference but not too much of one. Also, you'll note that for every resistance there is an equal but opposite weakness with this , so no one gets any more advantages.

That's just it. There are enough variables (IMO) in the combat system to make you pass out from information overload. It wouldn't be much use to implement yet another one, especially because it makes only a tiny difference.

The oldest combat system was ultra cool because people just threw in skills, weapons, armor, and it all ran on pure common sense (minus the small stuff, like killing demons with needles).

No, I'm not saying we should revert to the old system. I just long for the basic ways.

[Erart Ridoc]

Oh somebody said something about the armor, so I think Ill try to clear that up.

Armor does have advantages/disadvantages depending on race.

Least this was how it was pre wipe, I hope it still is now.

Plate- Dwarf, Orcs
Chain- Human, Elf, Halflings
Leather- Elf, Halflings

Least that was what I was told, and 2 I found out. And if your wondering who told me the friendly neighborhood Konstantin

[falco1029]

Bah, I'm a realism nut. THe kind of person who gets mad if the gravity in a top down 2d game has gravity of 9.79 m/sec^2. I was just offering something that i figured only other ealism nuts would like, and i thought that there were more here. My mistake.

[Erart Ridoc]

No falco I dont think you understand, many people here are realism fanatics, you can tell by the postings. But there is also a time when you must understand that there can be such thing as to much realism. Also everybody like Blood said will have diffrent views on what that realism truely is

[falco1029]

True. But still....

[Aristeaus]

Oh somebody said something about the armor, so I think Ill try to clear that up.

Armor does have advantages/disadvantages depending on race.

Least this was how it was pre wipe, I hope it still is now.

Plate- Dwarf, Orcs
Chain- Human, Elf, Halflings
Leather- Elf, Halflings

Least that was what I was told, and 2 I found out. And if your wondering who told me the friendly neighborhood Konstantin

Lies, lies and lies im afraid. Konstantine good never beat me so take my word for it

[Filidan]

We should only have one race with a resistance: the dwarves. They have a fat barrier, and think they should take only 10% of the damage!

Filidan

[Erart Ridoc]

Actually they are not lies Arist, a halfling in plate armor takes more damage than it does in chain mail, least back pre wipe, I tested that for myself. And a halfling with leather armor has a greater chance to block than with chain but still takes more damage when it does get hit

[Galim]

um, if the halfling in plate got attacked by a staff of course he gots more damage than in chain. plate good against slashing, bad against concusion, chain good against concussion, bad against slashing. so it was.

[Erart Ridoc]

Actually all weapons the chain deals slightly less damage on a halfling, than plate, because plate was bulky for a halfling. This was tested, extensivly by me.

But I dont know what it is like post wipe

[Galim]

than it was not because you are hallfing but because of your attributes. maybe you had better once for chain than for plate.

[Llama]

Idea connected a bit to this....

Elves are taller than dwarves, therfore elves should have big problems using a shield, simply because they cant cover everywhere with it...

The same goes for armor... will the same armor work on an elf, as will for a halfling?

[Moirear Sian]

Some people may not take me seriously when I say this, but I'll say it anyway. The game is already packed with tons of variables of the combat system. As Pendar posted previously on this thread, game balance is like balancing on a thin, high tight-rope over a deep pit, and considering that combat can also play a significant role in the game, the more variables that are used in the combat, the more difficult it will be to balance it properly. As it is right now, the combat system is not yet "perfectly" balanced. Just a thought, but perhaps the existing things need to be balanced first before we go into adding even more variables to the already very long list.

There is already an old thread of Darlok's concerning the fighting system, which Bloodhearte had revived, so I suggest that people post their proposals for the fight system right there.