Wipe and statistic questions

[Pendar]

With the wipe coming up a lot of players are looking towards creating new characters or adjusting the stats on existing ones.
We are also looking at a new client in the not to distance future, this possibly will have new crafts and skills to learn.
I wonder if the GM's could let me and other enquiring minds in on a few important facts.
A few that spring to mind,
Is the combat system being reworked and if so, Will AG,DEX,STR still be the most important ones. I can only imagine the heart ache to some warriors if suddenly perception was needed to parry.
A similar example is perception now being required for druidry. I was disappointed when my character couldn’t pick herbs. He was designed to be a decent warrior and semi intelligent to. I think my perception is one to low as you need 11? I recall giving him 10 which according to the stats explanation would give me perfect sight for my race "human".
Also any new skills in the near future, such as bard or priest and any clue as to what stats may be important to these?
I actually dont recall my exact stats and that’s not the point,

I am just hopeing to avoid any future disappointment or our right disasters.
Thanks Brian

[Moirear Sian]

Perception already is a factor in combat, if I'm not mistaken.

[Korwin]

I think it might be better if players don't know which stats do exactly what, or else every fighter would be the same as almost every other fighter.

[Garett Gwenour]

Korwin I think that is the problem, because people don't know what the stats do they are afraid of making a warrior that is weak so they just go max str, agility, constiution and dexterity. That is why everyone know uses a double axe because that is the ideal weapon for those type of folk.
I think if people knew putting perception into their warrior would allow them to use daggers and fire swords to be able to counter the double axe cliche they would. My characters aren't maxed warriors but I have not found a weapon they can use that counters double axes effectively.

[Pendar]

Sian
Aye it is how ever it currently really only affects one chance to get criticals as far as we can work out. I must admitt i have not experimented drastically. in theory characters with a perception of 3 would be so near sighted they cant see a blade falling. Of course every statistic cant be fully utelised in that manner or it would restrict players to much. Having characters that could never fight or are to dumb to hold an axe.
Picture the message
~~you cant seem to work out which way round this thing goes~~ when useing an axe. That would teach people with 3 in intellegence

How ever if the combat system switches to heavily favour one stat, as it now does str and dex and con. We could have a lot of unhappy players. Thats my basic reason for asking. Also suddenly discovering you cant be a druid or a bard if it was implemented would be dissapointing,
Hope this clarifys
Brian

[Aegohl]

Well, that is an illogical way of distributing stats in my opinion. It seems to me that in all but a few cases, the stats are pretty straightforward. I would say that agility and dexterity lead to the most confusion on the physical side of things while Essence is the most confusing on the mental or spiritual side of things.

The problem with agility and dexterity is that one often wonders what the difference between the two would be. Agility would be pure speed, while dexterity is control and coordination.

The problem with essence is that it mixes both spiritual qualities and psychological qualities, seeming to cover both how charismatic the character is and also how spiritually alive he is at the same time.

Keikan made something neat once that can help you with all this: http://128.130.59.88/community/forums/v ... 6b1f1fcddd

There is work in progress by Estralis to make a list that will also help with this.

But, for my part, to summarize:

Strength: Muscular strength, lifting power, etc..
Constitution: Immune system, ability to take pain, and
Dexterity: Control of body, coordination, nimbleness.
Agility: Pure speed and swiftness.
Intelligence: Raw thought power, logic, book-learning.
Willpower: Ability to resist temptation, self-will, etc..
Perception: The senses.
Essence: Raw spiritual energy. Not necessarily charismatic qualities, but there is a relation.

Aegohl

[Pendar]

Aegohl thanks for explination and i do agree with your definitions and points of confusion. I think the stat system is great actually .
How ever if you reread my post you will see that my actual question was what will alter with how stats affect game. If the gms have decided to keep it a secret so be it.
cant hurt to ask
Brian

[Ezor Edwickton]

I think we should be told what attributes affect what skills, in what way. Enough of these guessing games.

[Aegohl]

As I said, there is work in progress. However, I don't think it will be all put in your lap quite like that, Ezor. When you create a character, it should go in this direction:

Concept->Stats->Finishing touches.

If the concept includes that the character is fast, then agility is the stat for you, and so on. If we just hand out the information as to how the stats effect everything, then the temptation to build the concept around the stats is there, or even worse, have a concept that is seperate from the stats.

Of course, you're free to disagree with me.

Aegohl

[Ezor Edwickton]

But what if you want a character to be good at a certian skill, or occupation? You need to know how the stats will affect them. There shouldn't have to be a mystery to it all, especially for new players.
I personally think that your stat points should change as you learn and do things in the game. ie: intellegince increases when you read a lot or strenght if you mine or lumberjack. But fixed stats is that way that is chosen for use to go, we ought to know how to use them.

[Aegohl]

Seems logical to me:

Anything involving fine manipulation with the hands will more than likely involve dexterity (tailoring as one example)

Anything involving the swinging of something heavy will more than likely involve strength (lumberjacking as one example)

Anything involving thought will more than likely involve intelligence (library research as one example)

You see what I mean?

[Zeshyrr]

Ezor is right. What is the point of misleading the player by hiding the facts about the stats?

[Aegohl]

We're not hiding them. We're giving you them as tools for roleplaying. Please name a skill where there would be no logical conclusion of what attribute or attributes it's based on.

The trickiest part is combat, but there's good reason for it to be tricky. You don't *need* an incredible dexterity to be a warrior, nor do you *need* an incredible strength. This allows one to be different sorts of warriors who are good in different sorts of weapons or different styles. This is a good thing, without which all fights would be based on a few stats and how many healing potions you carry.

If you're looking to balance up against those who find good stats more important than a good character concept, then stop. There will always be someone who is bigger, badder, or just plain meaner than you. It's not worth going through the trouble.

On the other hand, your ability to roleplay where no man has roleplayed before is a wide open field, entirely without limitations.

Aegohl

[Falk vom Wald]

But what if you want a character to be good at a certian skill, or occupation? You need to know how the stats will affect them. There shouldn't have to be a mystery to it all, especially for new players.
I personally think that your stat points should change as you learn and do things in the game. ie: intellegince increases when you read a lot or strenght if you mine or lumberjack. But fixed stats is that way that is chosen for use to go, we ought to know how to use them.

There is no miracle around these static attributes at all.
What these attributes mean was pointed out many times before and becomes clear straight out from the words meaning itselves.

When you create your char you see that there are minimum and maximum positions for every attribute. So that meaning is quite easy too: minimum attribute skill means lowest abilities on that single talent. Maximum...

Every single doing, no matter if it is casting, fighting or crafting is based on various dependencies of attributes and skills and these affect as well success and quality as wastage or cost.

Each single doing comes along with different relationships, so to explain them would simply mean to unhide the structure of this game.

But you can simply use your life-experience, to jump high you need agility, to carry a lot - strength is needed, to understand things intelligence will be helpful and perception has to come along with feelings, impressions and senses. Willpower is a little difficult for willpower is pronounced on the first part of the word.
Any more questions? I hope so...


Maybe one last hint: ordinary people will survive in most kind of situations but they suffer not to be heroes. Heroes will be never forgotten, mostly for the tears that were cried out loud when young bloods died.

[martin]

Is the combat system being reworked and if so, Will AG,DEX,STR still be the most important ones. I can only imagine the heart ache to some warriors if suddenly perception was needed to parry.

The next update will NOT touch the combat system. This will come later.
However, perception already is an important thing in combat. Just imagine you being blind and deaf and trying to fight against a dragon. Good luck.

A similar example is perception now being required for druidry. I was disappointed when my character couldn’t pick herbs.

No. Blind people who are deaf and cannot smell and taste will easily find everything everywhere. Go there, try it. Good luck.

Also any new skills in the near future, such as bard or priest and any clue as to what stats may be important to these?

Just use common sense. You did that already, designing perfect blind fighters. I am confident that you keep up the good work and proceed on bards and priests. Good luck.

I am just hoping for a little more common sense to avoid future dissapointment on my side.

Martin

[Misjbar]

I think the new account system is ingenious. But I cannot seem to add chars. This is probably intended or?

(If you do not know what I am talking about, read the newsletter)

[martin]

But what if you want a character to be good at a certian skill, or occupation? You need to know how the stats will affect them.

This is stupid. You won't need strength to hit hard, right? You don't need to see something to hit it with an arrow, right?
You need to know nothing, you only need to *think* about it.

Martin

[martin]

I think the new account system is ingenious. But I cannot seem to add chars. This is probably intended or?

Yes, it is, actually.
Everything you do now has no effect on the real server.
Furthermore, you cannot add chars currently, as the corresponding database is empty right now.

Martin

[Misjbar]

Oh..right. Well, from a tester's point of view. I think it works up to the point of charadding. That even works if you do not have that empty database. Keep up the good work.

[Mimblethorp]

But what if you want a character to be good at a certian skill, or occupation? You need to know how the stats will affect them.

This is stupid. You won't need strength to hit hard, right? You don't need to see something to hit it with an arrow, right?
You need to know nothing, you only need to *think* about it.

Martin

I agree with this for MOST skills, though there are a few that are not as clear like peasantry and cooking.

My main concern here though is that there aren't any SURPRISE skill/attribute combinations. A perfect example is druidry. It took me three character tries to get a workable druid because of the Minimum stat requirements. For a new player, one should be able to figure out that to spot those tiny plants and to make sure a mixture is boiled to just the right color/flavor/etc... is going to take perception, however, I see no reason why you need above average intelligence to mash plants together, boil, mix and pour in a bottle. You don't have to understand the chemical properties of a leaf to experiment and find a mixture that works. I could see intelligence helping but not being required.

Obviously the developers disagree, which is fine though not very realistic. However, in such cases where skill/attribute doesn't make obvious sense, it needs to be revealed to the players so that they don't end up working hard on a character concept that CAN'T work because the stats are wrong.

[Moirear Sian]

Obviously the developers disagree, which is fine though not very realistic. However, in such cases where skill/attribute doesn't make obvious sense, it needs to be revealed to the players so that they don't end up working hard on a character concept that CAN'T work because the stats are wrong.

From what I know they are working out some possibilities so this doesn't happen.

But I'd like to repeat the essence of something I just wrote about on another thread; what exactly prevents you from playing a druid other than that your druid can't brew potions? Why oh why must all druids be able to brew potions? Why oh why must all spellcasters use the whole array of possible spells? Why oh why, praytell, must fighters be superior in combat? Why must a crafter do all crafts, and why must a farmer have every resource-gathering skill in the book?

Bottom line, for roleplaying, these things are not necessary.

The only use they fulfill is being superior or outstanding in some way (by means of game ratings, namely), which holds no weight against memorable characters. A druid who can churn out 200 healing potions on the fly will not necessarily be as memorable as a well-played druid, even if the latter can't brew a single potion himself.

Obviously I was right way back when on my "powergaming"-thread, that illarion is filled mostly with "legal powergamers", but I guess it's only me who sees this.

[Mimblethorp]

Well, I had a really cool, witty response to this about how being able to actually be able to DO skills that are part of your character concept actually is very RP and all but apparently I took too long because when I cliked submit I was sent to a login screen having been kicked off by the forum and after that it just didn't seem worth the effort to rewrite the whole thing.

John smiles and shrugs and is at least greatful that he didn't end up on the soap box again

[Moirear Sian]

I understand your point. It's just that as the game is designed, having a concept and deviating from what the game imparts you with (just to fulfill the concept) does not work together right. You have to have a concept that will work straight off (a concept as in starting with a hammer and shovel, no skills, and only the rough physical/mental concept of the character). A practically thought-out history is nice too if you can come up with one (you'll face problems if you have the idea you can start out with a background history like your character being the Prince of Ashkizalambara, high summoner of daemons), otherwise you might lean towards the old and original "I lost my memory..." when you start out, have nothing, and can do nearly anything (client-side); that is, nothing but roleplay.

[Klak Mork]

when it comes?

[Ezor Edwickton]

Just use common sense. You did that already, designing perfect blind fighters. I am confident that you keep up the good work and proceed on bards and priests. Good luck.

There is more to it then just common sense though, (which by the way is different to almost everyone). Say you want to make an archer that is also a druid. You need to have an idea what the minimum requirements are for learning druidry, so you can also put some points towards things you need to be an archer.

[Naybet Grint]

Well I made a mistake initially because the reality of how things were in game didn't match my common sense. I assumed, inaccurately, that druids would not require a great deal of intelligence because my preconception of what a druid is, differs from that set down in Illarion. When I discovered this I faced the choice of starting over, or playing a character that is desperately trying to become a druid, but that will never master most of the things that most druids do. I think Pendar's question is a reasonable one to minimise similar things. To take a specific point: Will a bard require good agility? Presumably you need agility to play a musica instrument, but not all bards in all culture do play instruments. I'm not expecting an answer, just highlighting a potential case where common sense can't answer the question.

[Misjbar]

No..as said earlier, dexterity and agility are a different thing. For an instrument you would require dexterity. For dodging or running fast you would require agility (for instance).

[Naybet Grint]

Yeah, sorry. I'm more than a little tired. Imagine I had said dexterity. The question still stands, as does the more important question of should the GMs answer the question 'Do bards need dexterity'?

On one level the answer is obviously no, because you are a bard if and only if your fellow roleplayers treat you as a bard, and a good singer played by a good RPer could acheive that. On another level there is the system concept of a 'bard' and on that level a pure singer might not qualify. If that is the case it could lead to some very odd situations, depending on how bardic 'magic-type-effects' are implemented. If they are done through 'instuments of power' then common sense can provide the answer "dexterity is needed", but if it is 'bards inspire people with music' it gets trickier. Hence the reason I think it is reasonable to ask the GMs for a few clues.

[Moirear Sian]

If some people would actually take me seriously and/or read, things would always be so much easier.

Worry not, GM(s) are working against this specific little detail of confusion. Let alone can anybody just PM or IM them, or enter the illarion IRC to raise questions and find answers (although some answers are more shrouded than others).

From what I know they are working out some possibilities so this doesn't happen.

One of these possibilities being templates of how to set attributes up for certain "archetypes" of characters, which is in the works, as far as I know.

[Pendar]

martin wrote

A similar example is perception now being required for druidry. I was disappointed when my character couldn’t pick herbs.


No. Blind people who are deaf and cannot smell and taste will easily find everything everywhere. Go there, try it. Good luck.

No problem I do appreciate that perception would be required. How ever I am sure i read some place that a perception of 11 was required for druidry. Intelligence also yes a druid would need to be smart, how smart 10 smart 18 smart. Base fact is many players have this knowledge from having experimented with other characters of there’s. Exchanging the knowledge ooc etc. None of which I have a problem with

How ever when you have a skill that can be make or break, 10 being an average for a human but the skill requiring 11 to perform. "As an example". You can see things could become disheartening for players.


How ever I see this sort of information is seldom if ever shared. So be it . It really was a pretty harmless enquiry not an attempt to start a flame war or make a mountain of a mole hill.