Passt das?/Does this really fit?

[Avaloner]

(english version below)

Hallo
also als ich mir grade das Rpg-Board durchgelesen habe, mehr oder weniger aus Langeweile, bin ich auf ein Topic gestoßen, das mir selbst schon bekannt war, aber dann sah ich etwas was mich störte.
Also ich rede von diesem Topic hier also ein Krankenhaus ist schön und gut, wobei ich schon bezweifle das es das im Mittelalter bereits gab, aber das soll nicht der Sinn dieses Topics sein sondern vielmehr: Was such Akupunktur und Druckpunktechniken in Illarion? Ich meine wir spielen hier ein Fantasyspiel das in Europa im Mittelalter angesiedelt ist, da haben japanische Techniken nichts zu suchen, meiner Meinung nach.
Gut ich hör jetzt bereits die ersten Aufschreie das wir hier ein Fantasyspiel spielen und das wir ja offen für alles sein sollten, aber ich spiele nicht gern mit etwas, das ich in RL nichtmal kenne, ich glaube sogar das der Großteil der heutigen europäischen Bevölkerung auch nicht spontan so etwas machen würde oder sich sogar damit behandeln lassen würde.
Jedenfalls hab ich mir einige Seiten angesehen und bin dabei immer auf das selbe Ergebnis gestoßen, beide Sachen wurden kurz vor den ersten Weltkrieg(Druckpunkt) bzw. nach dem zweiten(Akupunktur) in Europa etabliert, das heißt für mich das es auch zeitlich keine belange in Illarion hat, ja ich weiß das die Techniken schon vor Christus in China bekannt waren.
Nun wird es natürlich Spieler geben die sagen "Wer sagt das wir in Europa spielen" nun dazu sage ich nur...es gibt außer dem Wurfstern keinerlei Zeichen für die chinesische Kultur, keine Einflüsse in den Gebäuden in Illa oder sonstige chinesischen Kunstwerke gibt es in Illa zu bestaunen.
Was ich damit sagen will ist das ich in einem RPG auch keine Basen aufbauen will oder Einheiten und Ressourcenmannagment veranstalte, europäisches Mittelalter und chinesische/japanische Einflüsse passen meiner Meinung einfach nicht zusammen.
Ich hätte gern eure Meinung gehört.
Ohh und bevor es jemand sagt das ist kein kleiner privater Krieg den ich hier veranstalte nur um das vorher gesagt zu haben.Noch etwas bitte meint nicht das meine Haltung rassistisch wäre, aber wie schon erwähnt, für mich passt sowas nicht zusammen.

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Hello
today as I looked at some post in the RPG- Forum i saw the following topic well there’s a post from shan and she's offering Chinese techniques and now, that’s something that doesn't fit into Illarion.
I was first unsure when we got the knowledge of these techniques so i looked trough some site's and found out that pressure point was before the first world war and acupuntur was after the second so not even the times are right.
Ok i hear the first say that we play an RPG here and we should be open minded and such, but just imagen would your char try something that we in our today europ got and maybe the Half of the inhabitants don't trust?
I know the technicians are known in china even before christus, but thats no reason we should play it in a RPG that takes place in europ in the middleages. Oh now i hear some others say "Who said we play in Europe" yes i know it myself there was never a staff member saying this, but just look at Illarion we got nearly no Chinese influence, just the throwingstars, if you could call them Chinese, we got no other Chinese Weapons or tools or buildings that look Chinese, so there is no influence of Chinese so it must be European.
What i wanna say..is you don't build bases and train troops in an Adventure game or, so Chinese influence and middle-aged settled in Europe just doesn't fit together and that annoys me a bit.
Just to add this is no little private war against someone and please don't say I’m racist or some kind of that.
Just some statements or Opinions would be fine.

[Nitram]

Ich stimme Avaloner zu. Das Krankenhaus ist in Ordnung, die Massagen zur Not noch. Aber Druckpunkttechniken und Akupunkturen gehen in meinen Augen einen Schritt zu weit.

[Moathia]

I don't see a rpoblem with it, after all her character is very old and very well traveled, these techniques can be learned. Besides we are just playing a game, I'm annoyed by character that have managed to learn every language and have minde control powers (Not mentioning names ok Ules) even though the character is 18-19 years old. It's not as if she is forcing eveyone in the town to under go the procedures, but it's a fun option open to people who want to use it. After all Avaloner, we don't actually have magic or anything else.

[Cassandra Fjurin]

Ums mal auf RP Niveau aus zu drücken. Europa??? China??? was ist das? Wer sagt das die Druckpunkttechniken IG Chinesisch sind? Vielleicht ist es eine von Elfen entwickelte Form der Heilmethode und Entspannung. Es gibt kein Europa und China in Illarion. Vielleicht sinds auch Zwergische Druckpunkttechniken, denen ich mich dann aber sicherlich nicht unterziehen würde. Also sich hieran auf zu hängen, damit kann mans echt übertreiben.

[Cliu Beothach]

There are many inconsistencies within gameplay. If we were too nitpick everyone out, every player would have something lost from their roleplay. Just ignore it if it bothers you so much.

[Uzgâ]

Vielleicht gibt es ja auch sowas wie eine Illarionversion von Marco Polo.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

Thank you for your concern about this, PO Avaloner, and I am pleasured to answer your question "does that fit".


You just think of europe as a source for medievil fantasy, but medievil fantasy just says it is from the medievil times, and that its fantasy, so that there are things possible which weren't possible in the true medievil times. Nowhere it says every roleplay have to fit with european customs and traditions to that time.

So for me its fits. I never called it "Shiatsu", whats the real name is for it. I called it in a earopean language. If you want, I will chose an elven like name, if you feel better with it.

Shandariel is a very old elf, who travelled around alot. She had time to make many experiences. And things like massages, pressure points technics and massages could fit into elven societeys, if you ask me.

If I would play it as chinese or asian traditions, or name it after that, or something else, yes, I would agree with you. But I never did it. shandariel do knows a way of "Zen'archery", but she don't call it that. She roleplay it as an elven technique. As long as you don't play it with the combination with their chinese or japanese culture and traditions, it is okay.

Really, you should go away from, the thoughts that this game just have to base on european medievil cultures and traditions.

Thank you

PO Shandariel

[Bloodhearte]

There's nothing wrong with this, IMO.

I'm sure eventually some Europeans learned certain bodily pressure points, through experimentation and experience. Such points aren't exclusive to Chinese culture when it comes to learning them. The Chinese were mostly organized with the biomechanics they discovered.

I don't have to read a manual on light switches or know how electricity works to turn on a light. It just happens because of the motion of my fingers. It's something you just know.

Also, the character is an old one, right? Consider her the Marco Polo of Illarion.

Throwing stars are also in Illarion - definately objects not of European invention.

Edit: Shiatsu is Japanese for their comfort methods in terms of pressure points. It's just a name for what is done, not an art exclusive to the culture.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

And to be honest, the philospohie behind that techniques fits to the elven society and culture. If someone would invent something like that, than the elves.

[Bloodhearte]

Especially Elves. I'm sure after living for thousands of years, they get bored of doing what humans do and use some of their time to find tricks and methods of manipulating the human form.

[Zeshyrr]

I don't see what is wrong with having Chinese culture influencing illarion. I play a warrior monk and this is definitely from the Chinese culture. No player I have met has had any problem with my playing Zeshyrr this way and it has received a good feed back in my opinion. The Shi Long temple and guild already in illarion are also very Chinese.

And I agree the Chinese culture is very similar to the elven culture. Lots of similarities in that both have thousands of years of history, both have beautiful architecture, both are kind of mystical and have ancient ways of doing things.

I think it would be a shame if anything with relations to the Chinese were ripped out of illarion because then many fantastical things that could be roleplayed would not be possible any longer.

[Damien]

Nothing wrong with acupuncture, massages and all that.

There IS no chinese culture in illarion. There's no China in illarion. It's a fantasy world with medieval background.
Lizards do have a temple culture though, although they don't know "monks". For lizards, in a temple are Priests, novice priests, pupils and temple guardians - which can be the closest to "monks", or more a kind of paladins. Lizard culture is mainly based on an underwater world, so when a lizard says "weaponless combat", they usually tend to mean a kind of wrestling, or even slapping someone quite hard with their tail - ever tried to use fists under water ? ...hehe.
Teeth, long knives, tails, spears, tridents and swords/hammers for over water use are logical weapons for lizards. But, if someone wants to play a lizard "monk" - there's no real problem with it. Since the lizard speaks common tongue, it's his way to explain to humans (who come from a totally different culture) what his work is. Most human cultures know what monks are, they know that lizard culture is based on tanora temples, every temple guard or novice lizard priest avoids questions when simply calling himself a "monk" when humans ask. But chinese culture, definitely NOT


Chinese culture is NOT comparable to elven culture in illarion. Read the descriptions :
Elves do NOT know nobles.
Elves did develop weaponless combat and all of them feel the need to work or even do artistic stuff, they like to move. But no similarity to chinese culture. Illarion-elves would find the idea of having a king almost laughable ("What a human way of thinking ! Such a short view, too much responsibility in the hands of a single person - how hasty !")

[Nilo]

I dont really thinik its worth making a discussion over though...

If you have a question concerning something such as this, please PM the moderator.

[Zeshyrr]

Nothing wrong with acupuncture, massages and all that.

Acupuncture is from China so there is definite borrowing there so I don't see the problem with borrowing other things too.

There IS no chinese culture in illarion. There's no China in illarion. It's a fantasy world with medieval background.

So there is no Europe or Africa either but still the world of illarion is influenced by these real world cultures because it all comes from our human minds.

Lizards do have a temple culture though, although they don't know "monks". For lizards, in a temple are Priests, novice priests, pupils and temple guardians - which can be the closest to "monks", or more a kind of paladins. Lizard culture is mainly based on an underwater world, so when a lizard says "weaponless combat", they usually tend to mean a kind of wrestling, or even slapping someone quite hard with their tail - ever tried to use fists under water ? ...hehe.
Teeth, long knives, tails, spears, tridents and swords/hammers for over water use are logical weapons for lizards. But, if someone wants to play a lizard "monk" - there's no real problem with it. Since the lizard speaks common tongue, it's his way to explain to humans (who come from a totally different culture) what his work is. Most human cultures know what monks are, they know that lizard culture is based on tanora temples, every temple guard or novice lizard priest avoids questions when simply calling himself a "monk" when humans ask. But chinese culture, definitely NOT

Yes I agree lizard culture is not Chinese culture at all in an exact copy but lots of points are still borrowed from Chinese culture and other cultures like Aztec and Mayan.

Chinese culture is NOT comparable to elven culture in illarion. Read the descriptions :
Elves do NOT know nobles.
Elves did develop weaponless combat and all of them feel the need to work or even do artistic stuff, they like to move. But no similarity to chinese culture. Illarion-elves would find the idea of having a king almost laughable ("What a human way of thinking ! Such a short view, too much responsibility in the hands of a single person - how hasty !")

One dissimilarity in one point doesn't make something not comparable. There is lots of similarity with elven culture to Chinese culture in other points such as weaponless combat like you said.

[Zeshyrr]

Druids receive their power through nature itself and therefore can be considered as a type of a priest of nature. They respect the forces of nature and live consistent with it. They can produce potions, ointments and tinctures out of natural resources. In addition they are able to ask spirits of nature and wild animals for help and protection, or even can influence the weather and also the growth-rate of plants. Their magic is less targeted on the instent but rather unfolds its power over a specific period of time.

The magic of druids is the oldest branch of the magic powers and can look back on a very long tradition of their school, which has its origin in the legendary seer and mystic Nifrindarai from the perished elven domain of the Raenandor dynasty. His lore was in parts preserved and was recorded by his disciples (Nori Nifrindarai – Followers of Nifrindarai) in the volume „Concerning Nature“. In the perception that Illarion was created by the Elder Gods, he postulates that everything that was and will be, is created out of the five primary substances (fire, water, air, earth and spirit). These are the five roots of existence. Throug union and disunion everything there is in existence has evolved out of them. But they themselfs are in their quality something final; they never evolved nor will they perish; only particals will sliver from them and will establish new relations with particals of other primary roots. Therefore, what the mortals call creation and decay, is only union and than disunion: Birth does therefore not exist among all noneternal things, not even an end in the accursed death, but rather mixture and exchange of the mingled substances. For Nifrindarai all creation is thus only translocation und therewith establishes the laws of the preservence of the substances of life and the perpetuity of the primary substances of the world.

But what is the cause of this union of substances and the disunion of the very same? What is the driving force behind creation and decay? For Nifrindarai the act of creation was something devine and unflawed. In eternity the harmony of life is preserved. As birth may not be without death, the five primary roots keep balance without generating a preponderance in favor of or to the disadvantage of one single substance. In this, as he called it, first world period the force of creation and decay came out of harmony itself. The one can not exist without the other. Everything that exists is only as a whole imaginable, because how can I give without receiving and still remain whole? The primary roots themselfs strive for this state of harmony; as soon the single one arises out of the multiple, soon it will seperate again. And this continuous change never ends.

But with the manifestation of hate in the world this first world period came to an end. The present second world period is dominated by the devine struggle of hate and love; the two antipodes of existence. As hate intends to put an end to life, intends to destroy and to assist in increasing the multiple, love aims at unifying again and requires harmony to exist. Thus, in the turning of the great circle, in the turning of the wheel of time, the four great world periods supersede each other at regular intervals. In the upcoming third world period chaos will rule, as hate will be victorious. Only the multiple will remain and unity will be lost. Harmony will give way to chaos. Like in a devine maelstrom the elements will swirl without purpose and without aim, only subject to decay. It is reassuring to know that according to Nifrindarai some day the fourth world period will be heralded, in which harmony again will prevail. That way we have returned to the point of origin and this process will start anew in an endless circle.

Based on the theories of Nifrindarai the formulas and procedures of the druids (and also of the alchemists) were developed. The crucial factor therein is the approach that an universal order does exist, whereby an equilibrium between the elements is innate. Each individual element (with the exception of Spirit) is thereby associated with a specific attribute or quality, which are arranged in antagonistic pairs (wet/dry, cold/warm). These qualities can also be located in the different ingrediences, which find their use in druid or alchemist procedures. The success of a formula therefore requires a harmonic combination of the ingrediences and their proportions. As an example the lore concerning health and illness of the renowned healer Tifalori from Karamesh shall be introduced. But this principle can also be applied to all other procedures of the druids. According to his teachings health is at hand when the qualities of the elements in the body are in balance; if only one quality dominates sooner or later an illness will evolve. Thus, a cure can be accomplished through re-establishment of the disordered equilibrium, whereas the healer utilises that the qualities appear in atagonistic pairs. An excess of coldness in a patient can be balanced through a supply of heat or an excess of dryness can be dispelled through wetness. For the production of potions and the performing of procedures the druid also needs the fifth element, which has a joining character and therewith balances out both the attracting and repelling pairs of the other elements. This fifth element arises from the druid himself, who through the magical character of the bond establishes the unity.


In generel druids use a staff, which is often very plain and was manufactured from oak, beech, willow or ash trees. They can produce different kinds of medicine and require specific items for it. Manufactoring ointments does only require a mortar, in which the herbs are crushed and mixed with animal fat. Their virtue is than unfolded by applying it to the skin. Potions have to undergo an additional product cycle. After the brakeup in the mortar the mass has to be heated through fire to gain its maximum potency. After beeing bottled it can be administered orally. Tinctures are highly concentrated agents, which are most complex to produce. Here, the substance has to be concentrated further by using a destillation apparatus.

And also this whole thing about druidry in illarion taken from moonsilver, with the sages, balance of elements in the body, five roots, wet/dry, harmony of roots, union and disunion etc. It is almost exactly like the practice of traditional Chinese medicine.

[Damien]

Nanuk is an expert for chinese stuff. We can see he has been influenced a bit by it ;o)

To the similarities in elves and lizards :
There is NOT.
We weren't inspired by chinese culture when writing the lizards background. NOT A BIT. Inca or Maya ? Perhaps a bit, but not much. Feathers under water ? Uhm, nope. Bloody rituals ? Nope. the building types, big stone blocks, yeah. Not much more.

Of course, ooc stuff influences ingame ideas. We, the persons we are, are shaped by our world. But : We have NOT the intention of copying stuff from real life and use it for illarion background story. That's why it takes so long to write it.
The main thing in illarion is, that it should NOT become a copy of existing things. We should use our fantasy to shape a new world.
The culture in illarion that could be the most similar to RL eastern culture, are the plainfolk humans. Of course, they live in tribes, and have much other differences... but they're a bit inspired by both early mongoles and fantasy barbarian tribes.

Read the existing descriptions and forget RL cultures. We have fantasy.

[AlaineMilan]

good work zesh *hugs*

[Zeshyrr]

There is NOT.
We weren't inspired by chinese culture when writing the lizards background. NOT A BIT. Inca or Maya ? Perhaps a bit, but not much. Feathers under water ? Uhm, nope. Bloody rituals ? Nope. the building types, big stone blocks, yeah. Not much more.

It doesn't matter if you were deliberately borrowing from real world cultures or not when you wrote this stuff because it still comes down to the fact that you were influenced by these real world cultures.

Of course, ooc stuff influences ingame ideas. We, the persons we are, are shaped by our world. But : We're NOT copying stuff from real life and use it for illarion background story. That's why it takes so long to write it.
the main thing in illarion is, that it should NOT become a copy of existing things. We use our fantasy to shape a new world.
The culture in illarion that could be the most similar to RL eastern culture, are the plainfolk humans. Of course, they live in tribes, and have much other differences... but they're a bit inspired by both early mongoles and fantasy barbarian tribes.

Illarion should not be a copy of existing things I agree. Illarion is not. But the fact remains that the fantasy in illarion has been and will continue to be influenced by real world cultures.

I read the description about plain folk humans and I don't think they resemble eastern cultures at all. They resemble more the amazons, Scythians, and Parthians of the western culture.

Read the existing descriptions and forget RL cultures. We have fantasy.

Your fantasy doesn't come from nowhere. Nobody can forget RL cultures because no matter the fantasy we live in a RL world. All our imagination springs from what we see and hear in RL. The fantasy is just a creative change on what we already know in our heads.

[Shandariel el Lysanthrai]

Thank you Damien, for support and accept my roleplay and the ideas I had *smiles*. I never meant the elven society is same with chinese in politics, of course not. chinese had a terrible amount of officials, bureaucracy and nobles. But they have the same high state of development compared with other cultures like the chinese to their great time in the past. They are not exactly the same, but the "way" of them is a bit equal.

[Zeshyrr]

Thank you Damien, for support and accept my roleplay and the ideas I had *smiles*. I never meant the elven society is same with chinese in politics, of course not. chinese had a terrible amount of officials, bureaucracy and nobles. But they have the same high state of development compared with other cultures like the chinese to their great time in the past. They are not exactly the same, but the "way" of them is a bit equal.

Took the words from my mouth. Also it should not be forgotten that in the first dynasties of China especially in the time of the Xia, the Chinese knew no nobles or bureaucrats and such things. At the time of Xia it is recorded that they had elected elders who gave advice on important matters of clan and country.

[Damien]

You just don't get my point.

Let's say it in short :

When you play in illarion, DON'T copy RL world things. Think into the background, but DON'T compare it to our world. Take it for seperated. Use your fantasy to imagine it. Imagine it to be completely independent from our cultures, or you will hammer it into a framework that will collide with the picture the background writers wanted to describe, and that other players may have of it.
That's all.
We will always compare things we see to something else - but we reach the best effect and atmosphere if we at least TRY not to do.

[Zeshyrr]

You just don't get my point.

Let's say it in short :

When you play in illarion, DON'T copy RL world things. Think into the background, but DON'T compare it to our world. Take it for seperated. Use your fantasy to imagine it. Imagine it to be completely independent from our cultures, or you will hammer it into a framework that will collide with the picture the background writers wanted to describe, and that other players may have of it.
That's all.

No I get your point perfectly but I think you don't get mine. This is because I never said you should copy real world things when playing illarion. What I did say is that when we play illarion we will be influenced by real world things for sure and to deliberately avoid this would just lower much of the creative action in illarion.

And the goal of the illarion game is for creative fun isn't it?

[Damien]

OF COURSE WE ARE. I said exactly that. BUT TRY TO IGNORE THESE INFLUENCES.

And stop all this quoting. It does remind me of martin who can be very irritating sometimes. *g*

[Zeshyrr]

OF COURSE WE ARE. I said exactly that. BUT TRY TO IGNORE THESE INFLUENCES.

And stop all this quoting. It does remind me of martin who can be very irritating sometimes. *g*

But what is the point of putting effort into ignoring something that we all know exists? I don't think it would help me have more fun with the game.

Okay, I will try to stop this quoting. Oops did I do it again?

[Nilo]

Now now children, get along!

It really doesn't matter THAT much now does it?