Giving Teeth to IG Justice

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:18 am

Some would consider this an IC matter, but I think this needs to be addressed OOC also. Which is: The current IG system regarding justice. The current system seems to have issues, which is that the guards, and other people involved have little to work with it appears. At best, criminals get MAYBE jail-time, but usually the two word verbal offensive of "you're banned", which actually turns into punishment for the GUARDS and citizens, because they just come back and start more trouble, and the guards have to spend all their time chasing them around, and it probably gets annoying for players.

From observation, there is no value placed into human life or punishment what-so-ever. Murder goes on as a usual thing as if it were eating lunch, as with other crimes also. So the main thing is basically: Isn't there some system that can be put into place to limit this?

Banning from town should be an after effect of the crime itself, not the whole punishment. I believe a while back there was a very primitive court system that kind-of worked, but if a better one is used (probably having a time to look into the crime itself, then give down punishment if the person can be proven to be the criminal, punishments much more severe than the current), it could do a few things:
-Allow for more realistic behavior.
-Open up new areas of roleplay that aren't there right now.
-Make playing guards/criminals/citizens more fun, it might not seem to make playing criminals more fun, but it raises the stakes a little for criminals, gives them more incentive to not get caught, and do the crime well.

Does anyone else notice this RP problem? Is it just me? Or any other ideas?

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:20 am

I agree....but it seems to come along with any video game.

Thalodos Artemetus · Post by **Thalodos Artemetus** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:22 am

I assume you mean the 'court system' on the rpg boards? If so, i think that would be better then what we have have now. To be honest i think the prison is to far away from town, if it was more centralised it could be used more, as players could easily interact and rp with the prisoners.. if you get my drift.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:31 am

Yeah, it makes both sides more interesting:
Guards- Find the person, prove their guilt
Criminal- Dont get caught

Currently, criminals do a lot of crimes right in front of guards

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:35 am

Well...being secretive is rediculous. Amazing how many characters are facing the other way and see you.

Thalodos Artemetus · Post by **Thalodos Artemetus** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:37 am

Thats asking a bit much though. So a player has to literally turn the player around just to see you?

If you roleplayed it then fine, but otherwise?..

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:03 am

That's part of the trick, not getting caught.

John Irenicus · Post by **John Irenicus** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:38 am

Guards- Find the person, prove their guilt
Criminal- Dont get caught

That is what we are doing. Most of the crimes are so easy to see through that there is no need for a court.

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:52 am

yes.. the guards already kind of judge.

But, I do like the idea of the court thing again... perhaps we have an election for some judges... I like that very much.

This wouldn't take away or add to the guards, which would also be good.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:02 am

I always try to give chances. I use to make Val trip when running, or make my character fall after to hits of a battle hammer. These usually work if the other character rps back. Sometimes they just hit you until you are dead without any rp. So you almost HAVE to run for cover.

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook · Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:29 pm

#me notices Cliu's location and falls over laughing.

Since people dont stay dead there is nothing really to threaten anyone with - except some sort of imprisonment. As has been said banning has no real effect. Guards arent around 24/7 so banned people end up wandering all through town.

A court would be good....but relies on the criminals playing along.
You cant even execute an unwilling offender. Chop his head off and he walks/floats to the cross and is back in business.

Unless you put a restriction on the resurrection.....say an hour or so. You cant log back in during that time. Might make people think twice before starting fights. But probably not.

Kidarien Rysdale · Post by **Kidarien Rysdale** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:36 pm

there was another post somewhere proposing adding stocks to the game im not sure if that would work but some sort of Handicap like not bieng able to use weapons or reducing skills temporarily might work depending on how easy it is to implement.

(First Post *Gives myself a pat on the back*

)

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:39 pm

*pats Kidarion* And a fine post indeed. Atleast not drenched in leetspeak.

Anyhow, I think about that handicap. How would you roleplay that? I'm interested.

Kranek · Post by **Kranek** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:48 pm

It's easy to RP.
You got knocked down or so (depends on how you see the IG "death") and after visiting the cross, you got a broken arm or something like that. Or you are very weak because of the lost blood and so on.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:59 pm

I just wanted to add that there is a judge in Illarion.

Eliminister ben Gorion was elected by the Triumvirat

He's kinda inactive though...
And I don't think that he had any trial yet.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:30 pm

Just watching out for my brothers Jeremy. You make me mad WE ELIMINATE YOU ALL!

I think that courts should be held ingame. Possibly jailing the victim until the date (relatively soon) and then posting the ingame events. I sure would come.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:38 pm

Could have a jail break type thing happen

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:49 pm

There are some jailed ones. But there is a difference between them, who visist the big prison in the southern woods, who becomes relaesed automatically after some hours of ig-time and them, who are in the cells of the Castle of the Greys.

The last option i like more, because it is a real ig-punishment and gives chances to flee. We had nearly 10 different jailed ones in the closeable castle until now. 1 died, 1 is still inside, for 3 ones the punishment was over, the most ones were released. Noone inside has to be ingame for all the time.

The big jail is more an ooc-punishment against the player. I do not really like it.

To the judge of Troll`s Bane. Yes, we have one, but he is inactive

If a new one is needed, maybe a citizen could tell us ingame during the next meeting of the Town Council (next Wednesday, 22:00 GMT).

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:56 pm

Town meetings?

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:39 am

I agree with you on that note Fooser, murder and punishment aren't taken seriously at all because of the player knowing that only he can choose for his character to be dead.

But this is an extremely tricky problem, and I have no clue for an idea on how to solve it...either player honesty (maybe unlikely), or permy death.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:35 am

My personal opinion on jailing:

There should be show trials with large, burly, shiny-robed judges who not only accuse the prisoner of the crimes he participated in, but also throw the book at him, accusing him of everything short of blasphemy against the gods--and sometimes that as well! Alchohol will be sold to the audiences of said trials, and the judges will, after prosecuting the criminal, pick his sentence based on the criminal's popularity in the attending audience. The throwing of fruit and vegetables at the criminal is not only accepted, but encouraged. The throwing of fruit and vegetables at the judges, however, will result in the thrower being prosecuted next. The throwing of valuables at judges, on the other hand, is also encouraged.

If it's a major crime (see above: blasphemy against the gods), they're made to fight to the death with another prisoner in front of an audience. Again, alchohol is sold. If it's a minor crime (such as thievery) they're sent to locked mines where they dig up valuable rocks to pay for their release, which should be set quite high. Once a day, they can go to an NPC guard who will give them a bucket of water and a loaf of bread.

Other options for punishment include but are not limited to:

Selling into slavery
Sacrifice to god of whom the crime would have offended most.
Gladiatorial battle against large groups of ogres.
Public embarassment.

Also, the laws need to be expanded to include:

Insult of women in public.
Covering of the head or face in public.
Greed (not tithing at least 10% of income monthly to an authorized temple.)
Witchcraft
And much, much more!

This would make town's quite a bit more wealthy, and the whole justice system quite a bit more entertaining.

That's just my view of medieval justice, though... Feel free to ignore it.

Gwynnether · Post by **Gwynnether** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:36 am

My proposal:

Please make all a town guard character, to see how fun it is and how easy it is to realise what you all proposed

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:34 am

I must say I surely like Moskher's proposal.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:16 am

You weren't supposed to like it. It was an example of irony, silly.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:47 pm

Yes Mitch i could see you creating a league of human sacrificers

And as to the injury death problem, it can not be solved and it is down to the players to act upto the task. If perm death could be implemented ig without willing from the player it was meant to. Im sure a few vindictive people would create a character like an Assassin and set it upon himself to kill all the hierachy on the island. And if he was a really nasty person just create a character to go around and PK as many people as he could before getting banned from the GM's.

And blood im sure you would be the first person to create this assassin, and maybe i would be the second

John Irenicus · Post by **John Irenicus** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:56 pm

Thanks Mitch, you are right, that would be a real medival judge system. I will follow it and jail *everyone* on the island.

Permanent death is the worst thing one could add to this game. The judge system will never be perfect, and it will never be possible to play it like it really was in medival times. It is not reality, it is just a game, and it can only be as realistic as a game is.

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:01 pm

Of course I like the sacrificing to gods thing... we should do that.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:00 am

Permanent death is satan, I'm not really talking about that, but more of at least a punishment that makes someone think twice about doing the crime openly and poorly, like much longer jail sentences, or planned executions that allow the person to come back, but with a bit of loss, not a lot but more than normal cross visits.

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:06 am

Hmm well I liket his -- propose it in the town meeting. We will see im sure what others think...

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:33 am

punishments should be more ashaming for the criminals. not just jail, good would be something like a pillory. the characters can't move or cast magic, and peoples are able to throw tomatos or something else at them. or they got their hair cut and the guard pulls them at a rope through the town. of course than a dozen of players would appear who think we have something like "human rights" in illarion

.

the problem with true medievil punishments is, too many players think of human rights, uno, and so on when they play. but something like that wasn't usual for medievil times, and not for fantasy too. some players even roleplay with their characters that jail is too cruel, haha <_<.

we don't need death punishments, but some other would be good. even if it is something like "cutting a hand of" for thiefs, if they got caught many times in a row. a gm could than decrease the characters dexterity.

but that are just some ideas.