Gain Problem Solution?

[Bloodhearte]

I realize that gain in both economy and skill is still a problem in Illarion, and shrugging it off won't help it go away. I have a few thoughts, and maybe some ideas:

It's because of the players and the GMs fears of all characters being superpowerful that such things as economy and skill gain are unrealistically tough to progress in. Here's the process:

-Gain rate remains normal for average joe to progress in.
-Powergamers take advantage of it.
-Gain is made tougher to discourage powergamers, at the expense of newbies and normal players who find it needlessly harder to gain. However, powergamers still are around.
-Gain is made incredibly tougher to discourage more powergamers, at the expense of newbies and normal players who find it practically impossible to do anything now without becoming powergamers themselves.

And yes, I would find the ability to gain now, unrealistic. Let's take fighting for example.

In RL, a boxer who has already fought 4 fights would beat the snot out of a boxer fighting his first fight.

In Illarion, a swordsman isn't better than a novice after 4 fights, so the only way to be noticably better is to fight hundreds of times.

Illarion is supposed to be somewhat realistic of course, but it's as if the gains to powergamers standards only. There will ALWAYS be powergamers around, and making it harder is only going to punish all when the violation is done by a few. I suggest gains are made to normal again, and GMs can track down guys who are gaining at an unrealistic, powergaming level. That's the only surefire way to eradicate powergaming without pissing off the innocents.

[Sam]

Does it matter that there are powergamers? Before you lot shoot me down in flames think about it. Does it matter that someone can make everything in the game? As long as they roleplay that they can't and interact with others as if they can't then where's the problem?

A Power Gaming warrior? Again does it matter? If he wants to play a great warrior he "must" have the skills to do so. If he's running around PK'ing that's a different matter, an OOC matter. If he's going around being a bully and a thug then that's an IC matter. Will it lead to lots of powerfull warriors? Perhaps, but we have that now, they just don't have the skills or were around when skill gain was easy.

I used to have a character who was a merchant, he had mastered every trade there was. But he only sold the things he made to Eliza. The money he got from doing that he used to buy things from other players who were masters of one trade, at SMACC price * 0.7. These Items he would sell to other players for SMACC prices. Alright he rarely found anyone to buy from him but that's an RP problem.

I think the solution is to return to the easy skill gain days and just make sure we RP properly.

[Moirear Sian]

First of all; nothing of this is flaming. Just a bunch of thoughts.

Does it matter that there are powergamers?

Yes, I think it does matter. It does matter when many people are frustrated by watching others with half the RP and thrice the PG holding characters that surpass their own in no time whatsoever. I would say that might just be me, but there must have been a reason for such restrictive skill gaining. As a matter of fact there are newer characters (than my own) who have already surpassed him in the sense of the amount of different skills, and the skill levels.
Think about it.

Does it matter that someone can make everything in the game? As long as they roleplay that they can't and interact with others as if they can't then where's the problem?

I believe, yes, it does matter, because... because of something big, which I suddenly feel the urge to elaborate.
You're right with what you write... now, if only everybody would "play along", it wouldn't be a problem. It wouldn't even be a proposal here. I can tell you for example, that my character Sian is a super-duper miner - not because of mining, but because of digging. You can bet both your hands on it that you won't see Sian working in some smelly ol' mine, though. And as you might have guessed, I come from the corner of P&P RPG. I cringe at the thought of a character having skills and abilities that do not fit into the big picture. Because as having served as a GM to many players over several years, one thing has never failed: there will always be powergamers (yes, there are even powergamers in the P&P section of RPG), and I've seen even some of the best RPers in P&P resort to abusing weaknesses in a game's mechanics. The thing about P&P though, is that you have the players right in front of you when you're playing. To be blunt: you can scold them straight at your gaming table, you can talk to them before and after sessions, or you could even be nasty and discourage their PGing by bestowing them with in-game punishments. You can even alter the rules in between games, or if you're really crazy; in the middle of a gaming session. The only margin that leaves to truly abuse game mechanics, is by the PGers taking character sheets home and fudging/cheating with their stats. And if a P&P-GM doesn't notice that, he or she is a twit.
It's not hard to smack a PGer in a P&P-RPG into shape so they actually proceed to RPing. But it can be infinitely hard when you're dealing with a bunch of ninnies in front of their computers, communicating with you only via the internet, and who have the feeling they can do whatever they want, and whenever they want.
What I'm really trying to say is that there should be zero PGing in an RPG. Nada. But somehow, it's just unavoidable, because some people don't seem to get one important thing out of their heads:
In an RPG, it's not about winning. It's not about being the top scorer, nor is it about striving to take the top spot in a ranking list.
If everybody would understand that fully, we wouldn't have PGers in any RPG, because quite frankly, this simple, but vital point is what distinguishes RPG from any other game. When you play a game of Poker, you had best win, because you're gambling with your money stakes. If you're playing a board game, there are always rules that determine when a player has won or lost. If you play Diablo, you're supposed to get really super-duper strong and kill Diablo in the end of the game, either alone or in a team (sorry about those spoilers, but that's how it is).
RPGs are different. If in an RPG, everybody plays their roles well, everybody's the winner. But if there are people who do not shape up to the principle of role-playing, everybody's the loser. It's as simple as that.
So, returning to your question - yes indeed, it does matter if someone can do everything. It ruins the economy system that this game boasts, please believe me when I say that, even if I'm only a newbie to Illarion - the way it is, every second character is automatically like some sort of merchant and grandmaster in haggling, because they pursue almost every craft available. I agree that there's nothing wrong basically with characters that can do everything - but I believe it should take them a vast amount of real time to get that character there. It must be said that it gets really awkward in-game when a newbie character is asking your own about specialists in town... and you keep giving them the same names, several times over.

It's not easy to gain skills as it is right now?
I beg to differ. And I do kind of fail to see the point in swinging the doors wide open for the lil' PGers to prance about. Right now, I'm quite sure you can still see it if someone is "gaining" in unrealistic proportions. I also don't believe it's too daft of an idea to pressure the GMs with yet another responsibility (in this case, monitoring for the powergamers).
If anything, this proposal is benificial to people who want to play twenty different characters, but not to those like me who concentrate on a single character over a longer period of time. Y'know, I do happen to spend more time in role-playing, than clicking the same static tile for the millionth time, and I've been playing intensively for the past month because I've been spending some pleasant holidays at home. I am absolutely sure that if I had powergamed, it would have taken me less than the time I've been playing to max my character out in several areas.
Suffice to say, that without powergaming, I got the skills I focused my character on, to a decent, if not even impressive level, and I've been playing for a bit more than a month. The character's useful at the things he's supposed to be good in, and miserable/incapable of exercising the skills that don't fit to the character.
Anyway... before I get completely carried away here - both of you have very good points, and I'd like to add this little tidbit of a proposal to them:
If anything, introduce it so that there's a "learning curve effect" to the skills. Make it so it's easiest to get started in a skill, gradually growing slightly harder to get to decent levels, but letting it slow down the further you delve into the skill - gradually making it extremely hard to nigh impossible to fully master it.
The problem with that proposal though, is that someone brought it already (and you'd presumably have to be very patient until you see it come to life in the game because it's probably complicated to implement). Gotta love that Search function.
There's another proposal thread concerning the splitting up and branching out of the craft skills, initiated by Darlok. You might want to look into that as well.

[Gro'bul]

If your character has a large amount of money, you can gain skill easily right now. You just have to buy the resources and pay people for labor, then you only do the work required to gain skill. My character became a grandmaster blacksmith about 2 days ago, and I've been playing this game for about 1 year and 7 months. I think chopping trees needs to take about 20 times more stamina than it does now. If you've ever accually chopped down a healthy alive tree with an axe, it isn't very easy. Considering picking mushrooms takes more stamina, I think this might be a priority tweak.

[Konstantin K]

Picking mushrooms is rediculously exhausting. What, a healthy person gets tired after picking 60 flowers? Gotta make it at least 200 or so.

[Sam]

You all made some very good points there.

I would point out that just because someone is new to the game does not mean their character is a newborn It is difficult for a middle aged warrior to come into the game world and have to run screaming from a bunch of flies.

I have followed the threads you spoke of and agree with a lot of their points. I particularly like the branching skills idea. It was once proposed that you could only "Master" one skill at a time which I thought was a good idea. All skills could be taken to a certain basic level but after that any gain in one skill would be at the detriment of another.

The good RP'ers, and I don't count myself as one yet, are once again being punished for the failure of the bad RP'ers to "play along". You can make the skills almost impossibly hard to get, in which case only the powergamers will profit. Or you can make them easy to get, in which case the powergamers will get them all quickly and hopefully get bored and go elsewhere or actually start to join in the roleplaying. I can't see the middle ground doing anything for either side. As for the economy, again it's much easier for the players to create it than to technically implement it I would of thought.

One thing is clear and that's that there are no easy solutions.

[Caitlin Fergus]

hm... I remember the GM/Player-Chat where many people complained about that it's too hard to gain skills and that would scare of players...


btw:

Picking mushrooms is rediculously exhausting

I have to agree

[Nartak Ironmaster]

There was a solution that came in my mind. As far as i know, we currently have (had?) a skillsystem that worked quite well in my eyes. When your skill raised much enough, you could not raise it anymore, because you had to take a rest. (Though i do not know if this is still implemented ingame, because i haven't seen the "you can't concentrate" message for some days).

Now imagine, you make the skills easier to gain and make this skill-restriction that wants you to rest, after some "work", more harder. Now, it would still be not easy to gain skills, but those, who RP and do not powergame have a chance to gain skills to a realistic level without becoming a powergamer. Of course, powergamers could still powergame, but not as much as before.

A possible solution?

[Belegi]

Now imagine, you make the skills easier to gain and make this skill-restriction that wants you to rest, after some "work", more harder.

Much more harder.

I totally second that. I hope a GM reads this.

[Darlok]

Now imagine, you make the skills easier to gain and make this skill-restriction that wants you to rest, after some "work", more harder.

You seem to forget that this is already the case.
"You cant concentrate on learing." appears from time to time when I log in.
There is already a hidden value that dertermines when and how much you can learn.

Its only discussable if the direct gain of the skill should be easier.

I hope a GM reads this.

Are we on somekind of overrun board?
This topic wont drown to the second page for weeks of months.
Pretty good chances to be read.

[martin]

It is surely read by GMs.

Martin

[Bloodhearte]

So that's what that message meant. I was under the impression that something new was being worked on and skill gaining had to stop for a bit. Nevermind then.

But in short, here's the way I see it: Powergamers will always be around, no matter how difficult it is to get money and skill. The best solution, rather than punishing everybody in a sense, is to bring it back to normal, and get stricter on the powergamers.

I guess that's all I can say right now.

[Darlok]

To understand how to discurage a powergamer you have to think about what drives a powergamer first.

He is constantly gaming and raising his chars skill to become the best in everything.
May it be Level, Skill, Frags ... anything that raises him above the averange player toward his own ideal of himself.

Also he mainly wants to be independent from everyone else, solve the dungeon on its on, grap the rare loot on his own, produce the best stuff on his own ect.

In Illarion we only have skills, these make you different from other characters/players, in the eye of the powergamer.


From these quite basic points, we can form a effective system for the skills and thier gain I think.

1. Overall Skill Cap
You can only get a specific sum of all Skillpoints. You cannot raise them beyond that point without sacreficing points of another skill.

2. Dynamic Skill Cap
Based on the "Age" of the character a dynamic Skill Cap will stop exessive and fast powergaming.
A character that is only 3 days "old" will have a very low cap compared to a character that is months old.
Additionaly a online timer checks if this character was really used, or only stored inaktive for later skill boosting.

3. Opposing Skills
These skills are in direct competition or rivalry to each other.
Raising one means lowering the other.

4. Main and Master Skills
This is just an addition to make a start easier for new player.
They are allowed to choose from the skillpool thier "main skill".
This skill raises faster than the others, up to a specific point, from there he raises as the others.

Masterskills are skills beyond a specific point, maybe 80% of the maximum possible points for this skill.
You are only allowed to have a specific number of skills beyond this point.
(Intelligence may raise this cap.)


I think all these points here have been mentioned before, I just collected them and gave you an overview.

[Turonga Mudwater]

Yes these things are tiring in Real life, but you must think of it on the flip side as well. I am a gem cutter (my only other skill aside from mining) but I dont consider 1 cut gem to actually BE 1 cut gem. in real life 1 cut gem would sell for FAR more than 6 or 7 gold. but, you wouldnt be able to cut 50 at a time or anything like that, but from each you cut you would get immensly better. so I look at it in a ratio so to speak, 1 real gem = about 25 game gems. Same goes with hammers breaking. Breaking a hammer is really quit rare, even in those times. but on the other side, they dont sell for 7 gold.

[Galdwore Darkmoore]

3. Opposing Skills
These skills are in direct competition or rivalry to each other.
Raising one means lowering the other.

That is a good idea though it would need alot of refining, as to what rivals what.

[Katrina]

I agree that picking flowers is hard in real life and cutting trees is harder in RL, but I read it in an earlier post by someone you also must remember: A tree gives you more than 1 log in RL, People would not have bought potions in such mass numbers. I remeber somone saying they saw it as a ratio like 25 of 1 thing equals about 1 of a Real thing: EX 25 IG logs=1 RL log. because also, a potion would cost more than 10 coins which are thrown around like junk change.