Wider range of jobs/skills

[Darlok]

I mentioned this already on a german topic, and it has been proposed surely before.
However I feel the need to write it in down again in a hopefuly ordered way.

I would like to see that we get rid of skills that cover a large number of activities, mainly professions.
Thats why I propose that we, with the opportunity of the larger graphics libarary and the easier item-cloning, split up some of the current skills.

Blacksmithing:

* Weaponsmith:
This skill is needed to create weapons ranging from daggers to masterful blades and axes.
He can create blades, and also assemble these blades with other parts to create the actual weapon.

* Armorsmith
This skill will be used to created all sorts of armor, from metal enforced wooden buckler to a full metal suit.
He can create armor plates, reinforcements (eg.: to leather armors) and assemble armor plates with other items to the actual armor.

* Toolsmith
The civilan version of the smith, its needed to create all the things that are not intented to hurt and kill, however small blades like knives, daggers and hand axes are still possible.


- Carpenter:

* Fletcher
The Fletcherskill is useful for all sorts of wooden distance weapons, but mainly for thier ammo. The fletcher creates bows and crossbows, but focuses on the different arrows and bolts, like simple shaprened wooden arrows, to iron-topped arrows to the magical wind arrows. (Same for bolts)

* Carpenter
The new carpenter skill is used to create larger wooden objects, currently the best example would be our wooden chest or a wooden armor and shield.
Maybe later furniture is even possible.
The carpenter needs planks (processed logs of wood) to do is job.

* Woodcarver
This skill is used for the small wooden items, like a wooden spoon but also to create woodenparts for further use in other professions, like handles for weapons.
The woodcarver does not need planks like the Carpenter, he can use the logs of wood.

(Gro'bul)
Mining:

* Ore mining
You mine gold, silver, mirinium, iron, coal, and any other ore that may be available.

* Gem mining
You mine precious stones.

* Digging
You search for ressources in loose ground, like quarzsand or when preparing fields.



Since this are only two of our present skills, I would like to see additions.

[Aristeaus]

Very good idea, one of the first suggestions i agree with infact

It will create circumstances where people need to interact more to achieve what they wish.

And if it could be coded (( I hope that is the correct term )) Items could be implemented which require the combined effort of two or maybe more different characters in the different skill areas

[Ruul Tolfud]

Plus I think something that makes it so a person cant learn 100 trades is a good thing to. Maybe like 2-3 all encompasying skills, say somebody could be a Carpenter and a Farmer, but they cant learn blacksmithing. Or Blacksmith and Carpenter, but they cant be goldsmiths or farmers. And the third skill so to speak would be if they wanted to be mages or druids(or whatever magic will becoming along) and of course they dont have to be one of those things, but if they did they could still. But if they didnt become a mage or a druid they didnt have another skill spot open so say they are Carpenters and Farmers and not a magi or druid, they couldnt become a blacksmith still.

Oh and the Resource gathering like mining, or woodcutting, no stoppage on those because anybody can cut down a tree. Only the skills where you manufacture goods.

But anyways, I like the breaking of the skills into smaller fragments.

Oh and about that breaking the skills into smaller fragments, Say if somebody learned all 3 of the carpentry skills, they wouldnt be able to learn another trade like any of the blacksmithing trades. Because they would be devoting themselves to be a master of a particular craft.

I hope that made sense

[Gro'bul]

Ruul, that really had nothing to do with this topic.

Mining:

*Ore mining : You mine gold, silver, mirinium, iron, coal, and any other ore that may be available.

*Gem mining : You mine precious stones.

You would be surprised how much information it takes to identify some ores, because they look nothing like the pure/nearly pure element.

[Arkadia Misella]

How could this be implemented without serious unwanted changes of some characters?
Should everyone suddenly lose the ability to make certain items...or is everyone suddenly going to know these skills and new player will not.
I certainly would be sad to see my carpentry skill dissapear and either not be replaced, or to only be replaced with one of the above skill to begin with.

[Gro'bul]

How could this be implemented without serious ...

I would rather have one than none. Besides being able to make every carpenterable or blacksmithing item is sort of rediculous for one skill. You can always learn the other carpentering skills too.

[Arkadia Misella]

I agree and I like the idea...but I do not think they could go through and ask every player which skill they would want of the few and give it to them before wiping "Carpentry" and "Blacksmithing" all together to make room for the small groups.

[Ruul Tolfud]

Ruul, that really had nothing to do with this topic.

This topic had to do with the branching in skills, my reply had stuff about that in it, Didnt you read the bottom half? Coure the top half was needed to explain things in more detail.

But anways, Arkadia is right, how are you supposed to branch everything off to the older players, say ones that been around since the drought and everybody did everything, mostly. Or even ones farther back from the drought.

There wont be that many people that like that all to much. So alls there would be happening is an unfairness to the newer players.

Although I do like the whole skill seperation thing, would be pretty nice. But feasibly probable not to possible[/list]

[Gurik Elvenstar]

Gurik is a grandmaster smith and carpenmter how would it work for him?

[Ruul Tolfud]

I think the only time this will happen is when the GM's delete the accounts and everybody starts over. I know I read about it on the homepage. Till that happens good idea but I dont think right time for it

[Shi'voc]

how do you know that this time won't be tomorrow?

[Gurik Elvenstar]

that scares me

[Ruul Tolfud]

We reached the conclusion that the server must undergo some fundamental and far reaching structural changes. During this phase there will be no changes on the server (except bugfixes and scripts).

The reason for the changes are the increasing problems with instability, which you surely noticed during the past weeks. Each additional change would decrease the server's stability, which cannot be a solution for the future---the longer we wait the more difficult it will become to carry out the needed changes.

You should not expect that these changes would bring any new features available for you. The changes will only lead to greater stability of the game. This will also have no effect on the known lag problem.

Thats how hun

[Arkadia Misella]

Shivoc, if you kill Ark off I am going to cry. But I beleive the swipe would have been right when the new client was introduced,.....which it wasn't....So perhaps at a later date when the newer client comes out.

And yes...This is a great idea and should be implemented in the swipe.

[Darlok]

I have put your idea into my first post to keep everything easy to read, Gro'bul.
I also added "digging".

[Moirear Sian]

I'd really like to see this followed through eventually.
Here are some of my proposals for some more splitted craft skills:

- Tailoring -
• Cobbling - making shoes and boots
• Sewing - tailoring with cloths
• Tanning - tailoring with leather

- Herb lore -
• Mycology - gathering mushrooms
• Floristics - gathering flowers
• Herbalism - gathering leaves and other herbs

- Lumberjacking -
• Cutting - actually chopping down trees
• Logging - capacities for transporting the collected logs
• Forestry - replanting/regrowing the forest

- Glas blowing -
• Stirring - mixing the ingredients into a crucible (iron pot)
• Coloring - adding color components into the crucible for colored glass
• Blowing - the actual blowing/forming of glass

I also thought you could spread this out to fighting skills, and virtually any other type of skill. For example:

- Slashing Weapons -
• Bladed Weapons
• Bihanders
• Axes

- Concussion Weapons -
• Blunt Weapons
• Unarmed Melee
• Shield Bash

- Distance Weapons -
• Bows
• Crossbows
• Throwing weapons

Also, to enforce skill specialization over "allrounding", the skills could be set up with some limitations to what can be learned - all skills we proposed here come in groups of three. Following these thoughts, I propose this:

If a character practices all three skills from a single "division", they'll be a bit better in the skills of the group as a whole, in form of specialization synergies - but they can't learn all three from any other skill "division" (perhaps only one or two of them each, as a maximum).

That's all I could come up with for now.

[Keunthus]

Hmm, what I heard that it is far to easy to make good mining when mining sand. One of my freind says he a master after he played about two weaks. so, make mining go like this:
Sand mining
Ore mining
Gem mining
Gold mining

What do you thing? Or should we put Ore and Gold in the same?

[Gro'bul]

You did not bother to read the first post did you Ragor? Moirear, that is rediculous, we do not have enough players for that kind of skill division.

(Gro'bul)
Mining:

* Ore mining
You mine gold, silver, mirinium, iron, coal, and any other ore that may be available.

* Gem mining
You mine precious stones.

* Digging
You search for ressources in loose ground, like quarzsand or when preparing fields.

[Keunthus]

Sorry Gro´Bul, but that wasn't there the first time I readed it.

[GorgeBloodstench]

I dont like it...

I mean, if we're going to do this, why not just go ahead and make a skill for every smithable item? A good smith, in real life, would be able to make most things, just like the game rightnow... In my humble opinion

[Gro'bul]

Its for economical purposes mostly I think. This way blacksmiths can't make 2/3 of tools, armors, and weapons.

[Moirear Sian]

Moirear, that is rediculous, we do not have enough players for that kind of skill division.

I disagree. I thought this whole proposal thread distinctly had something to do with people gaining too many different skills in a too short time, and encouraging players to specialize and interact more with eachother; simply by branching out the craft skills.
I may be mistaken, please correct me anywhere you see errors.
When it comes to the crafting skills, I think there just aren't enough, especially when I see dozens of characters running around at the same time, every one of them capable of doing every profession. Of course hardly anybody has labourers or apprentices - they can pretty much do everything themselves.
I really think Darlok's proposal here needs to be implemented eventually; if not, I'd recommend working out some sort of "cap" as to how many craftsmen skills you can learn - for example the character's (Intelligence/2).
The rest of what I wrote (branching every skill into threes; the "specialization divisions", etc.) are only some new ideas to go along with it.
Gro'bul, I also must say I find it rather frustrating to think up a batch of new craft skills to broaden the old selection, and simply get to read it's ridiculous from someone else. But hey, if you're happy with only smithing and mining being branched out, what can I say?

On another note, I'd prefer economy being stunted because people aren't able to solve interaction problems ig, rather then the economy being ruined by people who can and will do every profession like a senior master. The way it is; I don't even to have RP a lazy character - people just assume it (ooc, I presume, for the biggest part) because the character only does one profession seriously. That's silly, because the character has been working hard - in only that one profession. Of course none of them would ever come close to assuming that the char's trying to be good at the one thing that he actually does. I simply don't know, I'm too new to this game to judge that exactly.
However, this is not a reason to just play down what I wrote. That you disregard my opinion and don't give it as much thought as anybody else's - I find that ridiculous.

we do not have enough players for that kind of skill division.

I'll analyze this part again. What you're saying is that if it's branched out severely, the game won't be working the way it is anymore, right? Well, isn't that the idea here? Obviously, some changes are wanted to this specific part of the game, otherwise this subject wouldn't have been chewed up so many times and recollected in this thread neatly by Darlok.
Were you at the quest when Caitlin and Nedor were trapped underground, and nobody had a rope, after the people had actually unearthed the hole they had fallen into? Well, Mr. Rope simply wasn't available as every other item, and we had people running around the whole isle, shouting for Hermie the halfling, who supposedly had the rope (and in fact didn't). That's how it should be now and then - that something is simply not accessible, because a specialist is not around. Yes, when there are only 3 other people/characters online, and you need the super-fancy-shmancy thingamajob which exactly none of them has or can provide, you're screwed.
But I'd welcome that. The way it is now, you can get any amount of any item or resource in the shortest time (given you're not banned from town and you have the money to pay for it - the characters that mostly fall into this category are the abovementioned characters that can practice every craft like masters).

You did not bother to read the first post did you Ragor?

Maybe you should read other people's posts more carefully than just speed-reading them. If you had read carefully, you would have noticed that Ragor was proposing to split the mining skills up yet more, seperating Gold mining out from the Ore mining skill. Not that I find that particulary useful, but if you're such a fan of splitting up the mining and blacksmithing skills only, then maybe you specifically might want to take more time for Ragor's proposal. But if you're truly not interested in splitting up any more than the smithing skills, maybe you should re-read Darlok's initial post yourself:

Since this are only two of our present skills, I would like to see additions.

[Gro'bul]

...I"m the one who added mining. I know lots of characters who would hire helpers or apprentices, just noone wants to do it so they have to do it themselves. The tailoring idea I like, except cobbling and leatherworking is basically the same thing.

- Lumberjacking -
• Cutting - actually chopping down trees
• Logging - capacities for transporting the collected logs
• Forestry - replanting/regrowing the forest

How would you gain skill by transporting logs? The forest automatically regrows anyway.

- Glas blowing -
• Stirring - mixing the ingredients into a crucible (iron pot)
• Coloring - adding color components into the crucible for colored glass
• Blowing - the actual blowing/forming of glass

You would need a depot like glass oven and 3 people doing it at once.

- Herb lore -
• Mycology - gathering mushrooms
• Floristics - gathering flowers
• Herbalism - gathering leaves and other herbs

You have to have herb lore to become a druid, they already have problems with the system now. I think you need to study the technical aspects and feasability of your proposals. I think the fighting skill expansion is a good idea, this way 99% of people are not using double axes. You also do not need to type so much to get your point across.

[Keunthus]

Gro'bul, but, I usaly don't read a post from the beggining many times.
In your post there where no "digging" and it was the biggest meaning in my post. I missed the part when Darlok said he addad in the beggining.
Sorry. Anyway, not worth fighting eachother, okay? I think we both want a better game. why not add a "drinking skill"? Then make real beer.
The better drinking skill the later you get drunk. If they continue to have that you get damaged from beer, the better you are, you get smaller damage.

[Gro'bul]

I asked martin about a brewery skill and thats probobly not happening in the near future. Hoever there might be beer sometime kind of like how people make wine I am guessing. I think that would be resistance to poison Ragor. I know there was no digging, I guess Darlok kind of filled in that gap.

[Moirear Sian]

cobbling and leatherworking is basically the same thing.

In the technicalities of the game as it is now; yes, it's basically the same thing because they'd both be made out of leather. In technicalities of RL, they're two different cups of tea though. There are seperate professions for both.

How would you gain skill by transporting logs? The forest automatically regrows anyway.

Good question as to how it would work exactly, but my idea was that lumberjacks have methods of transporting logs, i.e. by sending them down a river's current. It wouldn't seem logical at first to have a skill that improves your loading capacity for wood, but it's still an idea so that lumberjacking could be more than just a "hobby" or side-job for a character.

You would need a depot like glass oven and 3 people doing it at once.

Not really. The items could be expanded by a crucible. Using the crucible uses one bit of pott ash and one shovel of sand and then creates the molten glass (resource) inside; colors are added by using gems or ores with the crucible instead of using it by itself. If you use the crucible and you're missing sand and/or ash, it warns you that something is missing. Now, the oven would have to be changed a bit. Instead of requiring the pipe, the shovel, the ash and the sand, it would require the two tools and the molten glass from the crucible. I believe this would come closest to actual glass-blowing irl and smoothly reflect ig the complexity of how glass is created. And yes, it would be interesting to see three people occasionally working glass together. Same for smithing, or carpentry.

You have to have herb lore to become a druid, they already have problems with the system now.

If you think a step further, what if you needed three of these "herb-skills" to be a druid instead of only one? The class would become rarer, making the archetype seem more mystical and preventing druidism from being a common thing or another "side-job" - instead of every second character brewing their own potions. I know this is standing in conflict with current issues, but I think it's better to propose it earlier than late.

[Keunthus]

Gro'bul, but would it make sence that you gain poison resistance of drinking beer? But since it is a posion potion, you should have that.
So a trained beerdrinking dwarf get smaller damage than a elf who drink his first beer?

[Gro'bul]

How many people do you know get hurt while drinking ( I mean from the alchohal itself)? Drinking should lower your attributes some, but then a long time drinking dwarf could build an immunity to intoxication and his attributes would be lowered only a bit? An "intoxication resistance" skill would probobly be possible in the far future.

[Moskher Heszche]

As for the difference between cobbling and tanning, it's less a matter of how different the skills are and more a matter of what class of people would do it.

When you tan leather, it stinks to high heavens. As a result, the lowliest of the low did the job. Whereas cobblers normally picked up their leathers from the tanners and made them into shoes. In other words, a tanner is a peasant; whereas a cobbler is from the merchant classes.

Although these skills are similar, it's justified to seperate them in order to influence player behavior. Read the books from the roleplaying games you own and take note of what skills, items, and mechanics were added not because they were needed, but because they force players to act a particular, realistic way.

[Gro'bul]

The skill he suggested:

Tanning - working with leather

Should be

Tanning - making leather.

So we would need another class to accually make leather armor.