More Hassle, better economy

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:50 am

Well this is my idea.

For items such as Maces, Hammers, Shovels, any smithing item that needs a log, I say there should be a "handle" item that carpenters make. So that every smith won't cut trees and have to buy handles. It should be around the 3rd level or 4th so youcan't just start off making them, that would not prevent others from making them.

This could be done with other cross over items i.e. Coal/Iron for bolts and such

martin · Post by **martin** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:01 am

That would need to much technical effort to be built in currently.
In general, we thought about that already, on a large time scale.

Martin

Salvieri · Post by **Salvieri** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:01 pm

If you want to make the economy better, make changes that affect the master craftsmen more than the new people. Its already hard enough for a new person to start playing as it is without making more changes to the system! I'll give you an example.

When I started playing, I decided I wanted to be a smith. But I couldn't without ore, so i thought I would mine some ore and smith some items till I had enough money to buy ore from players. I couldn't find where to mine ore so i thought of the next easiest thing; chopping trees. I had been given an axe by one of the kind players of Illarion so I went off to cut trees and after I had chopped down 2, my axe broke.

What can I do now? I had to resort to fighting mummies to sell the things they dropped. However they are too strong for me

Anyway, if you want a better economy, make changes that affect old players that are master of a craft, just as much as new players that don't know anythgin

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:00 pm

This idea would affect both....

@martin, I am just wondering how would it be hard.

I would think that you would just make a new item and replace the wood and saw with that new item. This may take along time because I am no programmer....

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:05 pm

First, there have to be graphics for that, then it's makeable...

By the way, everybody can make handles (in RL)... so making it available only for good carpenders would be totally silly... Think about the newbies, they couldn't make any item themselves without buying handles with money they don't have... So it should also be available for newbies, too...

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:15 pm

Rackdere, I disagree. Everyone can NOT make handles in real life. If i went and got a smal log and started trying to make a handle, I would most likely fail horribly.

(especially if i wanted it smoothe...

)

Also, This has been proposed SO many times before... With "Arrow HeadS" and "bolt heads" and shovel heads and the such... not anything new...

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:05 pm

Think about the newbies... I don't say more...

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:16 pm

Think about the powergamers....

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:38 pm

Actually, I think it would cause more people to become Good carpenters AND good blacksmiths... which isnt very realistic... You should really only be good at one or two craftmanship skills...

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:19 pm

How should the newbies buy the handles if they haven't money?

There isn't a job where you can get money as a newbie except for killing zombies...

A newbie starts with a shovel and a hammer... You have to go to both of the mines to get some iron and coal.
1. That's very dangerous because of the flies.
2. If the hammer breaks he only has a shovel which is unuseful without a hammer.
2.1. The same with the shovel if the newbie hasn't both coal and iron.

Then he can smith something.
1. I think there isn't an item which could be made by newbies and doesn't require wood and a saw.

So the newbie has to smith a saw.
1. A saw requires a wood and a saw itself.
2. To get wood, he has to have an axe.
2.1. An axe requires wood and a saw.

So the newbie has to buy a saw, an axe or wood, perhaps a new hammer and/or a shovel.
1. The newbie hasn't any money.

The newbie can pick up items left by other players next to the zombies.
1. Thus he has to go next to the zombies and possibly gets killed.

He can kill some pigs, smoke the meat and sell it at Eliza's.
1. That's the only save way to get the first money.

Now I know the reason why we have so many beggars in Troll's Bane.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:43 pm

You can make helmets and shields without wood, so you don't need wood for blacksmithing. Also keep in mind blacksmithing is probobly the hardest career you can choose in Illarion.

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:24 pm

But blacksmithing is the only career you can choose if you only have shovel and hammer...

A newbie can't make helmets yet, can he?

Salvieri · Post by **Salvieri** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:03 am

Val De Gausse wrote:This idea would affect both....

But new people are hit hard because they don't have the money to buy the wood from other players.

Trust me, if you make it a little easier to get into a trade (ie for new people) and harder to get to be the best of a trade, it will make for a better economy.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:47 am

What if the starting items where based on the stats of the charsheet?

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:54 am

The Returner wrote:What if the starting items where based on the stats of the charsheet?

Your Attributes have nothing to do with your profession, do they?

I think it could be a little bit more. A hammer a shovel an axe, perhaps a saw. Then the newbies can do the firstb thinks on their own...

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:42 pm

Your attributes have everything to do with your profession, obviously a weakling isn't going to be mining because he couldn't carry hardly anything. See keiken's attributes list thingy.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... php?t=9047

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:48 pm

Actually, it does

A newbie could make a stats sheet better suited for speed, maybe a ranger, or a messanger.

But then, he could spend days in game whacking stuff with a sword, building his strength, and then hes a superfast warrior.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:37 pm

You can't "build" your strength.

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:02 pm

Your attributes only say what you shouldn't do. But tell me how you would decide between lumberjack and miner or between smith and carpenter. It has nothing to do with your attributes and can't be decided this way.

I think that everybody should get the same starting items.

Kincent Nolatri · Post by **Kincent Nolatri** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:34 pm

A beat up shirt, pants and maybe a handful of gold.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:33 am

Rackere Diplomatre wrote: It has nothing to do with your attributes and can't be decided this way.

It can. Are you better with your muscles or fingers? Do you have better eyesight than speed? It just takes some thinking about, I'd rather not think for you.

Zare · Post by **Zare** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:46 am

A beat up shirt, pants and maybe a handful of gold.

I think that gold as a starting item would be wonderful. That way, you can buy whichever items you want to get started on your character's career without begging. Plus, who would be crazy enough to come to a new town broke?

Rackere Diplomatre · Post by **Rackere Diplomatre** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:27 am

Gro'bul wrote:
Rackere Diplomatre wrote: It has nothing to do with your attributes and can't be decided this way.
It can. Are you better with your muscles or fingers? Do you have better eyesight than speed? It just takes some thinking about, I'd rather not think for you.

Rackere Diplomatre wrote:But tell me how you would decide between lumberjack and miner or between smith and carpenter. It has nothing to do with your attributes and can't be decided this way.

Lumerhack and miner or blacksmith and carpenter are a kind of similar if I think about the attributes. And I think everyone should be able to chose his job on his own.

Kincent Nolatri wrote:A beat up shirt, pants and maybe a handful of gold.

Very good idea. Better than chosing them by random or with your attributes, which really say nothing about your job...

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:23 am

I'm not frustrated with how things are, but this discussion made me think back to some pen'n'paper RPGs. Just some food for thought, given by a newbie himself.

Why not introduce something for during character generation, where you choose what the character's previous profession or apprenticeship was, prior to when the character enters game play?

I don't really imagine this having influence on any game stats - but it would be a big help to determine initial starting gear, and therefore improve two things:

A) Less beggars, like Rackere stated up there.
B) Quicker embedding of newbies into the economy system.

Applying the idea in examples, a fighter would start with a longsword, a smith with the good ol' shovel and hammer, a lumberjack with an axe, etc., etc. I'm taken to believe this would also reflect the spirit of RP behind Illarion.

But it's just an idea I thought I'd pose; I can imagine implementing it in the client would make somebody's butt bleed, because I'm not quite from the tier of programming.

*goes back to exploring and prays someone will be around to kill the flies that chase him back into town*

- Sian

PS: Homer stole my hammer... so I'm not going mining anyway, regardless of being biased towards it! What am I supposed to be doing in some grungy dark hole anyway? I'm a fighter.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:59 pm

Kasume wrote:You can't "build" your strength.

Yes you can.

The attribute section is basically equal to "genetics." In RL, people didn't have strong daddies so they're gentically skinny. Strength can still be built to make up for this fact, mostly.

Do you think the skills for weapon-types only have to do with precision, rythm, and the nervous system? There's a reason why a more skilled warrior can hit harder than an unskilled one.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:01 pm

The Returner wrote:Actually, it does

A newbie could make a stats sheet better suited for speed, maybe a ranger, or a messanger.

But then, he could spend days in game whacking stuff with a sword, building his strength, and then hes a superfast warrior.

Speed in combat isn't that useful of a skill to build up. In actual combat, speed is something that should rarely or never be counted on; it'll only equal a few nanoseconds of difference, if any difference at all that are affected by the infinite amount of variables.

It's not like big people move in slow motion.

Salvieri · Post by **Salvieri** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:48 am

I think he ment that you can't build your strength up in game.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:33 am

How about this, a noobie starts in a room with, say, 3 doors.

If he goes through door #1 he gets an axe and a shovel, and can't go back though, he leaves through another door which takes him to the starting point.

If he goes through door #2 he gets a scyth, a thresher and some seeds.

If he goes through door #3 he gets the thing for cutting herbs (I forget what it's called), a bottle and a wooden spoon.

If he goes through door #4 he gets a short sword and leather armor.

Door #5 he gets a bow and leather armor.

Perhaps a few more. Then the player can decide no matter what his stats are. Not sure how difficult this would be to implement. Would have to make a 1 way door and a special tile to give him the items and port him out or something.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:10 am

How about he just starts with some pants, a shirt, and 48 gold coins. It is enough to buy 4, 12 coin tools. Surely by then you will have something to sell. Most players sell tools cheaper than that.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:04 am

New people should pick a small "job" group at their char creation, two related things, like Carpentry and Lumberjack, Farmer and Fisher, Goldsmith and Gemcutter. Then when they get in game they have a headstart with that skill(a few up from "raw recruit"), and it is easier for them to improve their job skills that they picked than it is for the ones they did not pick.