Alternative solution ?

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:21 pm

In the latest time, i have seen many good roleplayers leaving illarion, or taking a longer break.
The main reason was, the increasing number of bad roleplayers.

I think that leaving is not a solution, at least not if illarion is thought to last for some time.

Instead, an idea came to my mind.

How about the ORGANIZING of good roleplayers ?

Primary goals :

- teaching roleplay to younger, lesser experienced players
- teaching manners to " "
- increasing the roleplay atmosphere by being ACTIVE, both making illarion unattractive for bad powerplayers and more attractive for other roleplayers
- reporting people with continued bad RP to the GMs for bans.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

that is a very good idea and the most roleplayers are already do that. but there is the problem that the players have different opinions about good roleplay. the most discussions and arguements happens because the players have different oppinions about what is bad roleplay, and what is good roleplay.

until now i tried to teach new players or unexperienced players who showed bad roleplay how to play anyhting better. and i also reported bad roleplayers who haven't learned anything after many hints, advices and what else. and iam pretty sure many other players do the same.

and yes, more of the good roleplayers should be active again. it don't help much when good roleplayers leave because there are bad roleplayers. that make it just more worse.

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:32 pm

Perhaps some older players, that is, players that have been playing a long time and are physically older, should take groups of younger players under their wings. One player could take say, ten and try to teach some tips and ideas for roleplay.

While I'm not suggesting that this is actually done via the Illarion client itself, it could, however be done over ICQ, MSN or one of the other highly used programs out there.

I'm willing to whip some manners into these young 'uns.

Fieps · Post by **Fieps** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:35 pm

Try it, but i see no hope.

I believe everybody have a several potential, you can try to improve the handling with it, but you will never change it.

And so hard it is, i think everybody can only react in his possibilities, nothing more nothing less....

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:36 pm

Right. Okay, well, there are many older players that can not role play. Many people will report stupid things, and im afraid that there would be so many reportings that the GMs will get tired of looking at all of them, and either let them go, or ban everyone reported....

Many people have bad rp, and are reported by 3 at a time, and nothing ever happens to them. So its not like rpoerting does any good right now...

I get tired of sooooooooooooo many new people around. It gets annoying really... I think that the people who do account acceptions should stop for a while, and focus ont he people who have lost their characters.

Josefine da Vince · Post by **Josefine da Vince** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:38 pm

I like the idea, but the problem is, that the post younger players that are new to this game won't accept the help because they are kinda naiv.

I know that ... I was one of these kids ...

A well anyways the other thing is that it hurts to get said that you're not a good roleplayer, when you're young and maybe it is the first time you try something like Illarion.
That means there is to be like a second mom and trying to teach manners to the little ones. That will piss them off and make them even more rude ... (in the worst cases)

But it is true that Illarion needs some work to become a nicer atmosphere ...

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:39 pm

Also, bad rp is like a train reaction. If somone mentions "powergaming" IC, other people will say somehting like "Whats Powergaming?" "i dont know! Ive never heard of that!" and soon it will be a big discussion.

Another thing is when somebody says things IC that werent even around at this period in time, (at least to my knowledge) like "Update" or also slang terms like "Dude" and "Crap".. I dont think many knights said "crap". other things to like "totally"... etc .

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:46 pm

That is exactly what i mean.
By organizing, the players will have to decide who to report and who not, they can filter the unnecessary reportings.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:12 am

Maybe a set of unofficial rules or guidelines like:

Don't try to fight after you have been killed, your character is so weak he could easily be dragged to jail.

Try to perform a #me action when attacking a person so that the other player knows it is you attacking him.

Just because you can't walk over a vase doesn't mean you can use it in battle for its technical effect.

Don't put forced roleplay on people not supported by the client. Example: #me hits character's head with a saw.
Instead: #me throws a saw at character's head.
That way the person has a chance of dodging it, and hopefully they make the correct chioce as pertains to their character's abilities.
Example: Your character has high agility, he dodges the saw.

Common mistakes and courtesies like this ect.
Forced roleplay also is not a written rule (although IMO it should be).

Alsyth Astha · Post by **Alsyth Astha** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:19 am

i try, bad rper respawned dkilled me once, so I told him not to do it again and left it at that (no warn yet). Then he still rped badly, so Itold him once more. Eventually for the third time I reported. I tried to give him many times to change, but he didn't.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:27 am

rekilling is not just bad rp, it is against the rules. and shouldn't be forgiven. to have a abd rp is one thing, but to break the gamerules is another one.

Alsyth Astha · Post by **Alsyth Astha** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:47 am

So going to the cross and killing is not bad rp, right after i died? anyway, isn't this a roleplaying game, and if you have bad roleplay you should be reported.

Josefine da Vince · Post by **Josefine da Vince** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:58 am

Read what Galim wrote again, and you'll see that he wrote that it is not just bad rp it's even against the rules

Therefor you should report it the next time ...

Hagen von Rabenfeld · Post by **Hagen von Rabenfeld** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:14 am

All you state here sounds nice and pretty, but you already made assumption, which is completely wrong. When we talk about bad roleplayers, you assume, that we speak about mature behaving people, who want to learn, what we consider roleplay. People who are interested in the game and in roleplay, learn by themselves raher quickly, if only by example of the surrounding players or by the conversations on the boards. The important difference: They are interested in the game and how it is played.

But instead, most "bad roleplayers" do not simply make bad RP, but do not understand the game´s purpose at all. They play Illarion as selfcentered as they would play a single player "RPG". They do not intend to learn roleplay, but just want to freak around in a world, where they can´t be held responsible personally and take pleasure in annyoing their fellow players. That is the first type. You recognize them by their 50 postings, before they are even accepted, as if the other gamers want to read every crap, that comes to their mind, which they would never think about.
The second type thinks to gave understood the game principle, but still play selfcentered, which means, they identify too much with their char, which makes IG-conflicts with them ridiculous, as they can´t accept defeat and see everything directed against themselves, not their chars. This leads to what could be called playing unfairly, as it seems only fair to them, that their char wins, as he is a natural talent/gifted person/batman and hereby SHOULD win. Such emotional outbursts, which lead to ridiculous IG scenes are common for players of a younger age. (and we all know, noone really read the advice about the minimum age for playing Illarion.)

My point:
Interested players care by themselves about being taken under a wing. What would you do, if you are a stranger to a town? You look for someone, with time and patience enough, to give you an introduction. I do not think, that there has to be implemented some device, to "teach" them proper roleplay. Actually no RP qualities are needed to come to this smple conclusion.
If a player is not interested in roleplay, all your examples and ways, to introduce them into the gameworld are in vain. They will take every advice as an insult about their RP or just think the unwritten rules (like giving your opposition a chance to react on what you intend to do) as restrictions of their own freedom(and so will break them, when noone looks, im just remembering the waraxe/vases fighters in the demon cave), which actually means, their freedom to freak out and act, how the moods strikes the PO. Common among this group, who can actually RP, but only, if their char is on the upper hand, or only if they PG secretly enough, to satisfy their POs wish for being great und admirable.

My advice is:
Throw out, those who misbehave, more swifter than now and more serious roleplayers might stay, when there are no madmen, running wild in the streets, every day and interrupting other´s people roleplay.

Alsyth Astha · Post by **Alsyth Astha** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:34 am

oh, hehehe thx Josefine. And Hagen is right, that is why I let him go for about 2 times to let him get to learn. Obviously he didn't. This is a bit directed to the PO of the movement, being one I don't see how running around town is bad rp. We don't like the town what are we suppose to do? slap you in the face for a duel? We like to see people aggravated because that is what we like, it is my characters character. Just because you don't like being aggravated you don't have to blame on bad roleplay.

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:55 am

The problem is everyone's idea of roleplaying is different and everyone's style is different and this makes it hard for people to roleplay together. At the smallest thing people will report you or come onto the boards and try to start an argument and get everyone else against you. We all need to relax a bit and have fun roleplaying together, instead we get people shouting "someone reskilled me!" or "this guy wasn't roleplaying right!"

When i first started playing, I used to be a carpenter. I'd go out, chop a few trees, craft some things and sell them to the shop and then go back to the depot and talk to my friends about what new things i can craft and try to sell some. If i did that now, i'd be a powergamer because i'm chopping trees AND crafting!

The guy who i sold a crossbow to was called "sir frodo". So what? I could still stay in character and roleplay with him despite his name being from LOTR. I didn't have to come on the boards and say "oh i know this guy he has an illegal name! ban him!"

If you didn't read my post because its long (is it? i don't know) then the basic gist of it is:

Chill out!

Alsyth Astha · Post by **Alsyth Astha** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:57 am

If you chop to supply, no not really. But if you should also buy some wood from lumberjacks, they need money too.

Throw out, those who misbehave, more swifter than now and more serious roleplayers might stay, when there are no madmen, running wild in the streets, every day and interrupting other´s people roleplay.

how is that "chill out"?

Vindigan · Post by **Vindigan** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:00 am

Alsyth Astha wrote:If you chop to supply, no not really. But if you should also buy some wood from lumberjacks, they need money too.

Thanks, you proved my point about my actions being powergaming now

how is that "chill out"?

I didn't write the part you quoted. If you know that then I obviusly dissagree with that quote.

Alsyth Astha · Post by **Alsyth Astha** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:02 am

No I meant, to supply for yourself. But I think you should have a MAX of 2 master skills if any more than one.

And most of his speech was about chill out, but the end wasn't.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:11 am

There is always a chance someone might think "Hmm, I guess I never really thought about that, oops."

I do it all the time so it might help someone. Everyone thinks differently.

Is it worth not trying and saving noone or maybe saving just 1 person? Ok it isn't life or death but if its helped one person I think it would be worth it.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:20 am

that was a spam nilo. you know what that means? it was unnecessary *fg*.

hagen is right with his posting.

@vindigan

noone would call you a powergamer because you chop wood and be a carpenter. but they would call you a powergamer when you are doing it for 5 hours without breaks or be a smith, a gemcutter and a peasant too. understand it?

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:26 am

@Hagen - You hit the nail on the head. Very same problems I encounter.

Although I wish a better future for Illarion, it's sad that even I believe little hope is left for a better roleplaying atmosphere in the near future. Many good ideas have been tried and thrown away due to the lack of effectivity.

As for me, I have been taking long breaks (due to my new boxing training) and come back only to get sick of players arguing OOC and IC about conflicts that have no damned solution! They drag on and on, convincing me that they're trying to turn Illarion into another hack 'n slash that already exists plentiful on the internet.

All I can suggest is that we follow up on Zerbus's proposal and get some GMs in there monitoring players along with their roleplaying behavior.

And Damien, I really do like the idea of 'organizing' the older, better roleplayers. However, as you mentioned, many players are leaving, and few VERY good ones remain. Even if this organization did come in to play, how would we, IG, address roleplaying tips and hints without constantly using OOC brackets? I always try to talk IG sense into a bad roleplaying character first, but they just criticize my character for one reason or another and continue. Then I have to resort to the dreaded ((')).

Maybe on the boards we can encourage common sense and get stricter on the bad roleplayers? As in implementing a saying into Illarion like 'If any remotely sensible person wouldn't even think about this in real life in a time period like this, don't make your character do it?'

For example, NOT purposely moving into a 7 foot inferno, making your character think it was 'nothing' simply because your technical healthbar is barely down? Or getting attacked by somebody with a large weapon and not calling him/her 'weak' just because, again, the healthbar is not down very far? Or not following spirits to the cross for interrogation?

Or not abusing #me statements by putting emotions in that the player wouldn't know about? Or by not jumping right back into fighting just because you drank a potion or used a spell?

Or by not making your speech sound too modern or dopey?

Hell, I could go on for the whole day. But a HUGE problem I notice are inexperienced roleplayers playing on the technical limitations of the game. Good players think "Whether my healthbar is down very far or not, if my character took a hurting, I shouldn't keep on going and take a much needed break" whereas the bad ones think "GULP. Ah, fresh health and energy, time to be the brave knight I've always wanted to be when I was a kiddie!"

It's almost as if they enjoy putting THEMSELVES into Illarion, rather than their character.

Anyway, I'm going on and on.

Derinoar Fallvictor · Post by **Derinoar Fallvictor** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:47 am

The potions is a problem, when your character has to drink 15-30 of them, but if he/she glups down a few to get him/her through a fight, i see it as a pain killer to keep your character ALIVE.

anyways i like your idea Damien

Gurik Elvenstar · Post by **Gurik Elvenstar** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:45 am

This is a good idea!!

Gurik Elvenstar

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:34 am

It is a great idea. I'm quite new myself(to my opinion) and I'm always glad to accept some help. There was a guy named Arcia, an old player in a new char, and gave me some hints, which I were rather glad to accept. But it isn't only the old players that must do something....GM's must be able to ban players more easy...if they have given many warnings about bad roleplay, and hints to improve.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:46 pm

That is exactly what is needed, since GMs cannot watch everything and everyone at the same time. When the older, more experienced roleplayers organize, they can put up, for example, a "list" with players who get annoying without showing a sign that they even WANT to improve their roleplay.
Of course, it is nonsense if a single person can put everyone else on that list. This "list" should be "filtered", or discussed, by the players themselves, and as a result, the really bad cases can be put on a list, so the GMs will have a much closer look at these players. Or even ban them immediately, if really necessary.

What i want to achieve with this is a better, organized and more effective player-GM-communication. As well as a platform to give illarion a better atmosphere, and introduce those new young ones who want to roleplay, on a better base.

Eshrain · Post by **Eshrain** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:54 pm

And maybe also to stop this: "illarion is sooo bad, the players are so bad"-threads? In fact, I think it would be a good idea, but i see one problem: who chooses the players who are good one?

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:09 pm

You mean the ones that judge wether someone is on or off the list? The gms's....or other players. *goes nuts by the question, unable to find a solution*

Nartak Ironmaster · Post by **Nartak Ironmaster** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:04 pm

I agree with Hagen's post, he already made some proposals about this problem some time ago. (http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... php?t=9399)
If the old players work together, we sure will find a solution.

Po Nartak

Fedaykin · Post by **Fedaykin** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:28 pm

I remember the topic of hagen,
we have discused hours with much of the good rpler to work out this post.

But it is dissapeared in the deep of the Board. So i think nobody where interested on this proposals. Maybe now is more interest on this topic.