Boxing problem - hands make too much too quick damage
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Damien
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Boxing problem - hands make too much too quick damage
With bare hands, a strong person seems to make much fast damage. Too much, compared to weapon use. Even armor does not help against it, it makes no or little difference as it seems. Can that be taken care of ? Fists should not be able to penetrate even light armor...
Boxing problem
If this is true, than leave it that way! In reality, when fighting unarmed against an armed opponent IS an advantage!
A fighter in armor is not so quick, and is hindered by his armor, when parrying the fast attacks of a martial artist.
Nevertheless, it´s quite difficult to hit an armoured foe effective.
Maybe there should be a skill for martial arts, that would solve this problem most effectively.
A fighter in armor is not so quick, and is hindered by his armor, when parrying the fast attacks of a martial artist.
Nevertheless, it´s quite difficult to hit an armoured foe effective.
Maybe there should be a skill for martial arts, that would solve this problem most effectively.
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Damien
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Boxing problem
Martial arts, okay... but now, you make much damage in armor, without martial arts, with fists. And, a fist cannot penetrate even leather armor.
(I wore some one day hehe, not in a game but in reality, you can make those as nearly as stable as plates, just less weight)
Fists must not do more, or even quicker damage than a sword. Swords are made to make damage. That way, swords would be senseless. Right, you are more agile with fists, but when you fight with your fists against one with a sword, the swordguy has more reach, too... and when one has a shield, you cannot hit him, you would have to hit AROUND his shield, and that's not possible with fists...
Martial arts are not only fist-punches and kicks, but grips and many different movements too. Well that belongs to the type of the martial art itself, there are many, and some include the handling of weapons and the usage of armor types.
(I wore some one day hehe, not in a game but in reality, you can make those as nearly as stable as plates, just less weight)
Fists must not do more, or even quicker damage than a sword. Swords are made to make damage. That way, swords would be senseless. Right, you are more agile with fists, but when you fight with your fists against one with a sword, the swordguy has more reach, too... and when one has a shield, you cannot hit him, you would have to hit AROUND his shield, and that's not possible with fists...
Martial arts are not only fist-punches and kicks, but grips and many different movements too. Well that belongs to the type of the martial art itself, there are many, and some include the handling of weapons and the usage of armor types.
Boxing problem
Fist do much fast damage yes, but you are VERY vulneable in the meantime.
In other words.. it would only be wise to fight people with fist's if you are either not being attacked "Pk's"
Or if you are attacking a much weaker person.
Secondly a shield with just alittle parry skill is enough to defend against Fists unless the attacker is very good.
Martial Arts skill does sound good. Although that would mean that without shield they would die fast.
I have often said another defense skill is needed such as Dodge... perhaps Martial arts and dodge would be good together.
In other words.. it would only be wise to fight people with fist's if you are either not being attacked "Pk's"
Or if you are attacking a much weaker person.
Secondly a shield with just alittle parry skill is enough to defend against Fists unless the attacker is very good.
Martial Arts skill does sound good. Although that would mean that without shield they would die fast.
I have often said another defense skill is needed such as Dodge... perhaps Martial arts and dodge would be good together.
Boxing problem
Hi,
First of all, Damien, it isn´t supposed to hit the SHIELD or the ARMOR, but the opponent. And you CAN hit a man behind a shield, but it needs good footwork.
I also fought with leather armor and against it, even with harder materials. The punch of a good boxer is hard enough to do considerable damage, especially when he hits your unprotected FACE.
A hit doesn´t mean, that you penetrated the armor, but that you did damage. Black eyes are DAMAGE!
A kick against the knee may even break it - with or without greaves. A shield only protects a small part of the body, it always leaves openings in ones defences.
You´re right, that a fighter with a sword has the advantage of reach, but INSIDE this reach, it is almost useless.
I train with and against weapons for 16 years now, and I know what I speak of. None of the european style swords in Illarion are sharp enough to PENETRATE armor. Their power lies in weight and concussion only.
You could catch them with gauntlets on, and they wouldn´t leave a scratch!
For the medieval fist-fighter it WAS hard to defend against a blade, but they used gauntlets of steel or small bucklers. In asia, they developed martial arts. But even in europe there were fencing schools, that taught unarmed tactics (especially in Italy and France).
So, why not taking a little bit of flavor to the game? A trained fist-fighter might be no match for a trained martial artist - but against a heavy armored and encumbered sword-swinger?
First of all, Damien, it isn´t supposed to hit the SHIELD or the ARMOR, but the opponent. And you CAN hit a man behind a shield, but it needs good footwork.
I also fought with leather armor and against it, even with harder materials. The punch of a good boxer is hard enough to do considerable damage, especially when he hits your unprotected FACE.
A hit doesn´t mean, that you penetrated the armor, but that you did damage. Black eyes are DAMAGE!
A kick against the knee may even break it - with or without greaves. A shield only protects a small part of the body, it always leaves openings in ones defences.
You´re right, that a fighter with a sword has the advantage of reach, but INSIDE this reach, it is almost useless.
I train with and against weapons for 16 years now, and I know what I speak of. None of the european style swords in Illarion are sharp enough to PENETRATE armor. Their power lies in weight and concussion only.
You could catch them with gauntlets on, and they wouldn´t leave a scratch!
For the medieval fist-fighter it WAS hard to defend against a blade, but they used gauntlets of steel or small bucklers. In asia, they developed martial arts. But even in europe there were fencing schools, that taught unarmed tactics (especially in Italy and France).
So, why not taking a little bit of flavor to the game? A trained fist-fighter might be no match for a trained martial artist - but against a heavy armored and encumbered sword-swinger?
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Sturm Feuerklinge
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Boxing problem
Hello Antarion,
I think, the bihander is mighty enough to (spalten) a armor. I never tried out on a Plate Armor, but that armor here showed is a late-medieval Plate armor mad of thinner steel, than the soon PLATES, which were REALLY thck and indestructilke....)
Wir sehen uns....
Dein Lehensherr Sturm Feuerklinge
I think, the bihander is mighty enough to (spalten) a armor. I never tried out on a Plate Armor, but that armor here showed is a late-medieval Plate armor mad of thinner steel, than the soon PLATES, which were REALLY thck and indestructilke....)
Wir sehen uns....
Dein Lehensherr Sturm Feuerklinge
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Damien
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Boxing problem
Yesyesyes, antarion, i exactly know what you mean. And i share your opinion in this. But the problem is : even when you use a shield AND fist you make a good deal.... and there is no "fist" skill. Anyone can make this.
The other thing is, at very close range a fistfighter can easily outrun a shield guy... But the fist damage is still less then the sword damage. And when the other guy wears plates with protected knees and ankles, and a closed helmet, the hits of a pure fist will just disturb him a bit, and give him light blessures at the places where the armor is attached. And it would really hurt the fist to hit a steel plate, especially a spiked one, ouch. I had some martial arts training myself, not 16 years hehe... but some. And it takes you MUCH practice to place a hit that can really hurt a guy who is covered in metal plates, or even double-taken, hardened leather, that is made to fit the wearer. And to dance around a guy who is used to wearing an armor, and to the use of a shield, is quite difficult. That needs practice again... Martial arts will not be one skill, but several. For example :
Hit unprotected places, Dodge, and not to forget the "footwork"... all these would be needed to realize martial arts, and should only work with special weapons, and with special (medium) armor, to keep the necessary movement...
Well, what we have here, is no martial arts : it is unskilled, unarmed fight. Brawl. Without practice and knowledge. And one seems to be able to make much damage with it...
The other thing is, at very close range a fistfighter can easily outrun a shield guy... But the fist damage is still less then the sword damage. And when the other guy wears plates with protected knees and ankles, and a closed helmet, the hits of a pure fist will just disturb him a bit, and give him light blessures at the places where the armor is attached. And it would really hurt the fist to hit a steel plate, especially a spiked one, ouch. I had some martial arts training myself, not 16 years hehe... but some. And it takes you MUCH practice to place a hit that can really hurt a guy who is covered in metal plates, or even double-taken, hardened leather, that is made to fit the wearer. And to dance around a guy who is used to wearing an armor, and to the use of a shield, is quite difficult. That needs practice again... Martial arts will not be one skill, but several. For example :
Hit unprotected places, Dodge, and not to forget the "footwork"... all these would be needed to realize martial arts, and should only work with special weapons, and with special (medium) armor, to keep the necessary movement...
Well, what we have here, is no martial arts : it is unskilled, unarmed fight. Brawl. Without practice and knowledge. And one seems to be able to make much damage with it...
Boxing problem
There is no fist skill, as there is no battle staff skill - anyway both use concussion weapons.
Everything else I wantesd to say, was said before (hitting areas without armor - not penetrating the armor, but crushing against it does damage too).
I will check the fist strength on the test server and perhaps reduce the strength a little in the next version.
Everything else I wantesd to say, was said before (hitting areas without armor - not penetrating the armor, but crushing against it does damage too).
I will check the fist strength on the test server and perhaps reduce the strength a little in the next version.
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Sskakzk'krr
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Boxing problem
Well I tried the fists training one day and it took my like 20 hits to take down a worthy opponet.but with the sword it only took one or two so I have no complants about the system and pple useing there fists.
MD
MD
Boxing problem
Gentleman,
It's not nearly as eazsy to hit someone with fist when holding a shield.
Secondly, I respect and see all of your points, but my opinion is simple.
Remeber there is a line between reality and fantasy and so, though me may want Illarion's attack skills and such to be like real life it isn't always possible or reasonable.
A conprimise would be best that solves the largest conflicts and hopefully everyone can learn to enjoy it.
Remeber this is a game and it has it's limits. The programers are probably reading this going "Let them program it I quit"
Anyhow, Think of how the system is now and how you could add something without much trouble that would work well also.
My opinion is martial arts skill and dodge skill would be adequate.
It's not nearly as eazsy to hit someone with fist when holding a shield.
Secondly, I respect and see all of your points, but my opinion is simple.
Remeber there is a line between reality and fantasy and so, though me may want Illarion's attack skills and such to be like real life it isn't always possible or reasonable.
A conprimise would be best that solves the largest conflicts and hopefully everyone can learn to enjoy it.
Remeber this is a game and it has it's limits. The programers are probably reading this going "Let them program it I quit
"Anyhow, Think of how the system is now and how you could add something without much trouble that would work well also.
My opinion is martial arts skill and dodge skill would be adequate.
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Damien
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Boxing problem
hehehe right, the problem i see is just, when dueling with one shield and a sword, i take no damage (even with a fighter character) because i can parry a bit. Then the other person uses his fist with the shield, (or said so) and did damage. And quite much, and very quick (with delays, of course, because of the shield he wears). Then i die... hehe... and he says, Uhm that was with fist... lol
What i mean, it seems sometimes better to use the fist, because it makes damage faster. And a fistfight, two people using fists only, brings up one of them dead within seconds. That's too short for a nice fistfight - what about nice bar beatings when all people quickly die away ? Would be a bar massacre... hehehe...
(Edited by Damien at 11:28 am on April 17, 2001)
What i mean, it seems sometimes better to use the fist, because it makes damage faster. And a fistfight, two people using fists only, brings up one of them dead within seconds. That's too short for a nice fistfight - what about nice bar beatings when all people quickly die away ? Would be a bar massacre... hehehe...
(Edited by Damien at 11:28 am on April 17, 2001)
Boxing problem
Hi
You´ve got a point there, Damien. Me thinks, that TWO skills are appropiate to solve that problem at once.
BRAWLING for unarmed but not schooled fistfighting - just the usual punch and groin-kicking. Maybe when you use a shield.
MARTIAL ARTS for trained hand to hand combat, using techniques instead of mere strenght. You can´t use a shield or armor heavier than leather then.
This would balance the whole thing, and make it realistic too.
In my own pen and paper RPG system i created Chi-Powers. They make it possible to cleave armor or fly a bit. Maybe this could be another power like magic or druidcraft.
You´ve got a point there, Damien. Me thinks, that TWO skills are appropiate to solve that problem at once.
BRAWLING for unarmed but not schooled fistfighting - just the usual punch and groin-kicking. Maybe when you use a shield.
MARTIAL ARTS for trained hand to hand combat, using techniques instead of mere strenght. You can´t use a shield or armor heavier than leather then.
This would balance the whole thing, and make it realistic too.
In my own pen and paper RPG system i created Chi-Powers. They make it possible to cleave armor or fly a bit. Maybe this could be another power like magic or druidcraft.
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Silversmith
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Boxing problem
I think that fighting with the fist should only drop the person to very little life not kill him conpleatly just stun him. Guantlets are what old time fighters used to do leathal damage with the fist. But it might also stun him like a real blow whould so while it might not kill him with a pure fist blow it whould make him think twice about following after and it whould give the attacker a chance to get out of there. Just my thoughts. A dwarf like me could just pick a person up and throw him across the room theoretically because of my higher strength. But I am not adjile enough to dodge an attack from an armored opponet (i am very slow but not stupid). A fist can also get inside the armored attackers range so the armored attacker can not hit efectivly. bla blah blah. I could continue but i am sure i make no sense now so i will quite while i am ahead. :-).