Discussion: Rules for ingame jailings

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:36 pm

§1 a
The "Town Guard" is only allowed to make jails in the area claimed by the town "Trolls Bane".
§1 b
The "Town Guard" is allowed to jail on "Lyrenzia Laws" / "Lyrenzia Terms".
§1 c
The paragraph 1b can change anytime the player run goverment of "Trolls Bane" changes.
§1 d
Ingame agreements/contracts can make §1a to become void for specific areas owned/claimed by players.

§2 a
The Jailer has to be on the same screen as the Jailed.
§2 b
If the Jailed walks into a so called "Bulding Shadow" §2a becomes void,
since the Player of the Jailed willingly uses a weakness of the game client.
The Jailer is allowed to jail, even if the Player cannot be sure weather his target is on his screen or not.

§3 a
The Jailer is advised to use roleplay (#me-command, ect.) to show that his character is about to capture the Jailed.
§3 b
The Jailed is advised to use roleplay (#me-command, ect.) to show that his character tries to escape.

§4
Characters who lose a fight (melee or distant) against the "Town Guard", and get revived at the cross in "Trolls Bane" can be jailed without further notice.

These are the current rules applied to the ingame jailings and are the base for this discussion.
You can give input here, and propose changes on them.

In the last few days, I have only seen the worst of you, regarding discussions.
We will have to work with absolutly strict rules here.

Your post must follow the following scheme:

1. Your opinion.
"I like ... / I dislike ..." ; "I agree ... / I disagree ..."

2. Reasons for your opinion
"... beause of Point1, Point2, Point3, ect...."

3. Suggestion for improvement
" ... please add ... " / " ... please change ...."

4. Reason for your suggesion
" ... because this will result ...."

If you cannot discuss in mature and calm way, we will simply break off and put the rules as they are in power.
I dont want to hear any moans like:
"bla bla Lyrenzia..." , "bla bla favouring players..." , "bla bla game is getting worse ..."
We are talking about a very specific topic here and will not go off topic.

Gandela · Post by **Gandela** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:43 pm

Hmmm what ist with Silverbrand? i make sense when the clan of the axe and/or some special dwarfs can jauiled (in SB) too.

(mal auf deutsch, da mein englisch ja so grottenschlecht ist. Ich fände es sinnreich wenn der Klan der axt und/oder ein paar besondere Zwerge ebenfals, natürlich nur auf dem Gebiet Silberbrands, einsperren könnten.)

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:47 pm

This is not part of the discussion.

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:58 pm

I only want to mark, that the Grey Rose has posibilities to jail, too. There are 2 keys in our hands.

Until now, the Grey Rose is the formal protector of Lyrenzia and Trolls Bane. But we did not use them except for one time (Hagen was not online, a guard asked me to jail).

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:03 pm

In this case the persons who have access to the jail, count as "Town Guard" - members and have to act according the rules.

But looking at the recent change , you might consider to give up this ability ingame.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:52 pm

What if the jailer chases them out of Trollsbane, kills them, and then once they are at the cross jails them? I relize there are other crosses than the one in Trollsbane, but using the technical threat of losing skills to capture someone is sort of wrong isn't it?

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:02 pm

In my opinion, killing is a form of punishment. Therefore, if i would kill you, i could not jail you within the same case.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:03 pm

I've used the Trollsbane cross when killed in Northerot, simply because it would be bad roleplay for me to simply revive myself where I was just killed. In all truth, the loss was mostly minimal. Anyways, back to the topic at hand...

What if the criminal revives themselves out of town? Would they still be "caught" by the Trollsbane guards?

Also, I think it should be stressed that the guards have to use roleplay to catch a crook. Not that I expect anything different, considering that we do have good roleplayers as guards, as far as I've seen, but there should always be the chance that a criminal could, indeed, get away if he were quick, smart, or damn lucky. I do understand that there are certain situations where this isn't applicable (such as the villain player isn't roleplaying and is abusing the system.)

Overall, I like it. The original prison should be kept for OOC violations, because we don't need rulebreakers closer to town. Thank you Keikan for taking haste in clarifying the rules, and giving us a chance to change them beforehand.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:13 pm

What if the criminal revives themselves out of town? Would they still be "caught" by the Trollsbane guards?

No. Look at the current rules.
§1a does not allow this.

What if the jailer chases them out of Trollsbane, kills them, and then once they are at the cross jails them?

Since these criminals are mostly banned from Trolls Bane , its thier decission to take the risk of going there.
Therefore they agree to the possible danger of having thier characters killed / loosing skill.

In my opinion, killing is a form of punishment. Therefore, if i would kill you, i could not jail you within the same case.

You need two parties for a fight, else it would not be a fight.
Attacking a guard and expecting to get away with a "blue eye" after a loss is not very clever.
Why not carry the criminal away, after you knocked him out?

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:38 pm

§1 a
The "Town Guard" is only allowed to make jails in the area claimed by the town "Trolls Bane".

Could they also be allowed to arrest people in lands/towns controlled by other organisations if that organisation gives them authorisation?

eg. A criminal is chased and runs into Greenbriar. The Evergreen Halflings (who own Greenbriar) have already signed an agreement to say the Town Guard can jail criminals who enter thier lands.

Will the Town Guard then also be allowed to jail the criminal in Greenbriar?

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:41 pm

I have another question for that.....
If Trollsbane/Lyrenzia suddenly said they claimed all land on the island except for Greenbriar, Northerot, and Silverbrand....What could stop them?
Then at that point they could jail anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:45 pm

@Ark's point : I think that Lyrenzia claims to have the right to pass jugdement on crimes committed anywhere, but I think this rule is to allow criminals to have some safe place.

One problem I would have with this is if a criminal ran out of the walls, then stopped to make fun of the guard. It would be poor roleplay.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:46 pm

If you claim something, you have to have the power to hold it too.

You are right, [insert random official from TB/Lyrenzia] could go outside the town walls, and claims:
"This forrest now belongs in our hands!".

5 Minutes after he left Arkadia shows up:
"Cheer and be joyful animals of this forrest, I just liberated you !"

Trolls Bane itself has to grow to claim and hold more land than currently.

Edit:
How about the Guard hands out bows to thier guardsmen?

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:48 pm

@Hermie, I think that in that case the Guards should have the right to pursue.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:51 pm

These rules does not stop the guardsmen from running out of town and attack the one who insults them there.
But it will prevent them from jailing him/her outside the town.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:12 pm

What about my other question? (I think it got missed as it was the last on that page)

Will the Towns Guard be allowed to jail criminals in lands/territories owned by guilds etc. For instance, if Greenbriar and Lyrenzia make an agreement, would they be allowed to jail people who flee into Greenbriar?

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:24 pm

If you make an agreement about this, I think it is perfetly fine.

I think we should make a rule about it:

§1 d
Ingame agreements/contracts can make §1a to become void for specific areas owned/claimed by players.

(If there are spelling errors or grammar mistakes I'll correct them later.)

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:40 pm

The Jailer has to be on the same screen as the Jailed.

how does he catch them from 5-6 squares away?

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:47 pm

Hagen would usually try to catch you (ie be on the square next to you) before jailing you. If he isn't given the chance to roleplay I say he can jail you as long as you are on the screen. As long as you show good roleplay I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you got away every now and then.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:57 pm

Your post must follow the following scheme:

1. Your opinion.
"I like ... / I dislike ..." ; "I agree ... / I disagree ..."

2. Reasons for your opinion
"... beause of Point1, Point2, Point3, ect...."

3. Suggestion for improvement
" ... please add ... " / " ... please change ...."

4. Reason for your suggesion
" ... because this will result ...."

I am impressed how you managed to put these points in such a small line, Val.

Anyway, I dont need to add much more to Hermies posting it does say most.
And dont forget §3 where it says that the jailer has to roleplay the jailing.

Originaly this rule was made to protect the criminals, so that if you flee out of the sight of the jailer you are safe from jailing.
You have to look at everything from different points.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:13 pm

how does he catch them from 5-6 squares away?

I believe much can be infered...

Opinion-Dislike
reason-physically impossible

Change-make it physically possible, hence 1-2 squares away...

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:17 pm

Its already this way.
Look at §3, please.

And I am not going to make someone count squares in a chaotic situation.

Conscience · Post by **Conscience** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:25 pm

I like how criminals can only be jailed within Troll's Bane because this gives criminals more opportunity for survival.

However although the rule of only jailing if the criminal is on the same screen is an improvement it is far from the ideal.

1. This still means guards have some supernatural powers that are unexplainable with good roleplay. Is it even logical that a guard can magically transport a criminal that is many meters away from them? In my understanding the screen represents a large area of land with all kinds of plants and possible camouflage.
2. What if the criminal is hiding (on the same screen) but is under the cover of rocks, overgrowth, and whatever? Does this mean the guards have supervision that can allow them to detect anyone for many meters around them no matter what?
3. A criminal can be running away and then arms out of nowhere catch him, make him unable to move, and then like God send him automatically to prison. I think you can see for yourself why this is stupid.
4. The very existence of this rule of jailing anybody on the same screen prevents or severely limits the possibility of any good roleplay because of its ridiculousness and impossibility.

Therefore please change the Rule of jailing on the same screen to the Rule of jailing only if the guard is 1-2 spaces from the alleged criminal.

Because this will result a more realistic jailing, chance for guards to actually have to think about how to catch criminals, a chance for criminals to actually get away, and overall more possibilities for better roleplay on both sides.

Its already this way.
Look at §3, please.

It is not already this way. §3 is a very vague rule about good roleplay on the part of the jailers.

And I am not going to make someone count squares in a chaotic situation.

Then why bother with any of these rules at all? The whole point of rules is to make someone do something to create a more orderly environment.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:30 pm

Sorry, this is a serious discussion.

Please dont use "annoymous" Accounts, I want to know with who I am talking.
Thats why I said, mature discussion, we dont have anything we need to hide.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:32 pm

Only problem with that is, what if the criminals don't roleplay fairly? What if their character can, by some miracle, escape from the grip of three guards at once? What if the criminals basically cheat OOC?

If a criminal can escape after being grabbed by a few guards, then the guards also have the miraclulous power to send people to jail from the other side of the screen.

Conscience · Post by **Conscience** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:34 pm

Sorry, this is a serious discussion.

Please dont use "annoymous" Accounts, I want to know with who I am talking.
Thats why I said, mature discussion, whe dont have anything we need to hide.

If this is a serious discussion then why does it matter for you to know who you are talking to? This is OOC for your information. You wouldn't know who I the player am anyways. A true mature discussion would not have people disregarding someone's opinion because they feel they need to know who this person is IC in an OOC discussion.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:35 pm

I don't believe another bad rp contitute yours. If I see some using bad rp on me I don't use I just grin and bear it. But the people who use bad rp for breaking grips should be punished ooc for bad rp.

Caranthir the great · Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:38 pm

You are precisely correct, Dónal.

@Keikan
Perhaps there should be a set of rules for the criminals too?

@Conscience
If it does not matter as you say, please log off and use your normal boardaccount. Thank you.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:43 pm

Criminals dont have special abilities that needs regulation.
Thats why I dont think they need another ruleset beside the Illarion rules and the golden rule: "Roleplay logicaly!"

And I dont want to confuse every role with a specific rulesystem for them.

Val De Gausse · Post by **Val De Gausse** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:48 pm

"Roleplay logicaly!"

Everyone has a different logic...so I was jut curious how is a bad rper punishement decided? or how did they decide he/she was a bad rper?