Jailing problem-a Solution

Conscience · Post by **Conscience** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:42 pm

Obviously there is a problem with the jailing that is done these days or there wouldn't be so many complaints about it both IC and OOC. I would say the problem isn't in the jailing itself, but rather in the way the jailing is done. We can pinpoint the problem through elimination.

The jailing of criminals is not the problem.
The ability of the town guards to jail is not a problem.
Therefore it must be the way the jailing is done that constitutes the problem.

Are the town guards some group of gods? In my understanding town guards in the Medieval Ages were normal citizens called upon to patrol the streets of a simple town. Are the town guards some group of mages?
If the answer is no to either of the questions asked above then the town guards should not be able to teleport/automatic transfer individuals to jail.

What can be a possible solution to this dilemma? The town guards obviously can't be without the ability to jail, but neither can they be with the magic like ability to teleport others to the jail. Why not a change in the method the jailing is done?

I would suggest that instead of teleportation the town guards could have the ability of opening the doors of the jail and closing them to lock criminals in. This would open up many potential doors for roleplaying because now jailing is not some unavoidable, god like ability that sends you automatic to jail no matter what.

Chances for escape and cooperation with town guards would appear. It is the way jailing is done that is the problem not the jailing itself. Therefore there must be a change in the method.

Caranthir the great · Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:53 pm

Nonsense. As long as the criminals disregard attempts to use #me (which would be the only real possibility to put them into jail) this won't work. Sorry.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:08 pm

caranthir is right. what do ya think how many criminals would just make a "#me release himself from the grip" and runs away? 90 % would do it.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:26 pm

The only thing I see that needs to be done is make the punishment IC. Sentancing a criminal to 10hours in jail is a peice of cake sentence, hell its less than a day. THE PROBLEM: Its 10 hours OOC TIME, which is mixing ooc with ic in itself. Why not 2 weeks gametime logged in or not, your character is always in Illarion, therefore serving his time even when logged out. An OOC punishment is a clear violation of mixing ooc with ic.

Once again I will stress, we are punishing the character, not the player. It is alot easier for someone to roleplay their character learning from their crimes if they aren't pissed off because the system is screwed up ooc.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:49 pm

The jailing of criminals is not the problem.

Correct.

The ability of the town guards to jail is not a problem.

Correct.

Therefore it must be the way the jailing is done that constitutes the problem.

Not entirely correct. Part of the problem is that the guards can magically transport criminals to jail, but this is partly caused by criminals putting Houdini to shame and slipping away under all circumstances. The problem lies at both ends; guards who wont give criminals a chance to escape and criminals who will not be caught. I can't see an easy solution.

I think the main problem is the amount of time you have to spend in jail. We have argued this several times to no conclusion. 10, or even 5, hours real time is too long. You are in a place away from any possibility of interaction with others and with nothing to do. The time either needs to be cut or allow off line time to count. The problem with the offline solution is that if you have another character you play that one for the time your others in jail. So the only real solution is to cut the time.

I've had my conscience speak to me occasionally but never post to a forum, scarey.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:55 pm

How come you have to serve time in jail? That is still mixing ooc with ic. Grobul has it right on.

Nilo · Post by **Nilo** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:57 pm

I thoguht you left grant!

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:59 pm

Yeah, I got sucked back in..

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:00 am

Algoran wrote: The problem with the offline solution is that if you have another character you play that one for the time your others in jail.

How is that a problem?
A: Your character wouldn't be doing anything anyway
B: It gives the online populace another person to roleplay with
C: All of your characters are always in Illarion.
D: Your not punishing the player
E: The player is happier so he may play his criminal role more tactfully not "pulling the houdini move" because he knows he won't have to put up with abuse of the ooc punishment system.
F: The bitching about the system would drop dramtically
G: The player is also happier about his character being punished, instead of him.
H: Making players happier makes people want to play the game more.
I: Older characters will be around to add the "old people" element to the game, so that they can share the history of Illarion with the newer people.
J: Older characters can also teach the new players.
K: Playing the game doesn't seem pointless because of the technical power.

I would go on but there is only so many letters in the alphabet.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:01 am

Can we not get pedantic about this and agree that when someone, me, slips up and puts

...the amount of time you have to spend in jail.

They, I, actually mean the character. Concentrate on the problem and stop scoring petty points.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:08 am

Algoran, that wasn't petty points, Grobul just made a very very good proposal and there is absoluetly no reason to say it is a bad idea unless you want to punish the players.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:17 am

the solution is easy. move the jail from the far south to a building in the town where the jailed person can be a part of the roleplay. he can talk with the guys outside or walking by. that would be the best and only solution. he would be in jail, and the player would be able to roleplay.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:19 am

I still like Grobuls reasoning.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:37 am

Grant I apologise. I thought you were scoring points off me putting "you" instead of "your character", now I see what you mean.

Grobul I see your point and agree. My only point would be that not all players have more than one character, but other than that I don't see a problem with having the sentence played out over on and off line time. Then if you wanted to, and they moved the prison closer to town, you could, if you wanted, spend some online time RPing in prison. If you didn't want to then you could let the time pass offline. The more I think on this idea the more I like it.

Conscience · Post by **Conscience** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:50 am

Nonsense. As long as the criminals disregard attempts to use #me (which would be the only real possibility to put them into jail) this won't work. Sorry.

caranthir is right. what do ya think how many criminals would just make a "#me release himself from the grip" and runs away? 90 % would do it.

Are the town guards some invincible beings? If not and they are only regular humans escapes would happen. It would be up to the player of the criminal to roleplay well, but bad roleplay happens for everything. Should we take out smithing skill and every other skill because there are some powergamers? Remember there is always violations@illarion.org

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:24 am

One thing I think would make less arguments, is if the town guards paralyzed the criminal before being able to directly teleport them. This would make it explicit that there was no way in which the criminal could have escaped. No "#me slips from the bonds and hides in the non-existant shadows by this wall where Hagen cannot find me no matter how much he searches around me," anymore.

I know that Hagen, for example, can use magic. He accidentally hit me once on my other character.

I don't know about the other guards, though.

Caranthir the great · Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:04 am

Conscience wrote:
Nonsense. As long as the criminals disregard attempts to use #me (which would be the only real possibility to put them into jail) this won't work. Sorry.

caranthir is right. what do ya think how many criminals would just make a "#me release himself from the grip" and runs away? 90 % would do it.
Are the town guards some invincible beings? If not and they are only regular humans escapes would happen. It would be up to the player of the criminal to roleplay well, but bad roleplay happens for everything. Should we take out smithing skill and every other skill because there are some powergamers? Remember there is always violations@illarion.org

Smithing? No. But I think that it would be pretty damn stupid to implement a system that would be abused by 90% of the criminals without a chance to counter it except by sending a mail to the violations every damn time.

I don't know about Hagen's methods, but when Aragon had the key, he always let people who he thought to be good roleplayers and to be able to handle the sitiuation the chance of escaping him. Your problem is that you can't understand that the 'problem' has two sources, not just how people are jailed, but also how the criminals play.

Oh, and a sidenote I really don't like the way that people are creating "anonymous" boardaccounts to express their opinions. Cut that.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:19 am

I am working on a specific set of rules reguarding ingame jails.
They will be published in some days (maybe tomorrow) and we can discuss them before I set them in power.

This proposal here is kinda useless.
It is impossible as long the town guard (or any other) is unable to disable the ability to move of another character (bind them with a rope, ect.).

It will be more likely that we try to "move" the prision.
However there is a huge problem we have no solution for.

If the prision is in town, who protects the jailed?
What if a passer by thinks it is funny to shot some arrows and them and kills them?

Derinoar Fallvictor · Post by **Derinoar Fallvictor** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:02 am

Then wouldn't the town guard have to go after the person that shot them for murder?

Derinoar Fallvictor · Post by **Derinoar Fallvictor** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:04 am

Oh wait the person would still be dead inside the jail..blocking his ghost. I see

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:08 am

Jep.
10 hours of being a ghost is an overkill for your skills.

I will not put any player (assuming he played a "good" evil) into this unesseary danger of ruining his character for (maybe) good roleplay,
just because some "hero" freaks out.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:10 am

and when there is no window in the room through which the prisoner can be shot?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:45 am

Galim wrote:and when there is no window in the room through which the prisoner can be shot?

You can't check on the prisoner.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:52 am

Yeah, you HAVE to keep an eye on Fooser, or hell could break lose.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:59 am

What about a "guard post" with a very small jail cell in town, then later the jailed person can be moved to the prison?

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:07 am

Put a cross or another way to auto- resurrect into the prison...
Or, even better, build the prison so archers can't walk up to the windows and see the people inside. Who they can't see, they can't shoot.