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Dear Fooser,


the problem with your argumentation is, that we don't life in two worlds ...

If you can guarantee, that noone outside Lyrenzia will steal, murder and rape someone inside Lyrenzia, there you have the border, that there is no conflict.
Or that noone of the weaker one search the help of Lyrenzia.

But as soon as these two groups get involved with one another ... and that is as usual as people lifing in one house have to do with one another ... you have the point, that no-Lyrenzia people will have to deal with Lyrenzia and his ways.

See Lyrenzia as one person like each other person within Troll's Bane (sure, it is a bit big person) and you will logically know, that persons can't life together in the same place without getting in contact and without being involved with one another.

Aragon ben Galwan
Earl and Templar of the Grey Rose
Priest of Malachin
Councilor of Lyrenzia

As you may know I had my reservations about Lyrenzia when they first appeared. I have watched them closely and believe them to be a force for good. The wall, though inconvenient, is a great help in protecting the town. The streets are much safer now and I can walk along in a robe rather than struggle in armour. As for SMACC I am all for it. I remember the days when I couldn't sell anything because others were almost giving away items. As a merchant SMACC has saved my business.

Give me an example of someone who has been falsely imprisoned, or harmed by Lyrenzia. I have heard of no one. As I see it you have nothing to fear if you are of good heart.

I ask you, citizens of Trollsbane, to put aside your groundless fears and work with Lyrenzia to improve our town.

Ellaron, Druid Merchant.

Have we forgotten? This in the Elararith case, #9:

***
Elaralith has been found guilty of the following charges:
1) Cain Freemont accuses Elaralith of an unjustified attack against herself

The total sentence for these crimes are 5 hours of prison.

Elaralith now has 24 hours to choose imprisonment. If she does not choose imprisonment by this time, she will then be labeled as "Exile" for 5 days.
***

You say that no one has bought you off, and yet how come in your book of Laws, law number 2 it says the following:

***
2. Restrictions to the Engagement of Battle

The engagement of battle should only occur for a justified reason and should be kept to a minimum. (5 hours of prison or 5 days of exile)
The killing or attempt to kill without a valid reason is not allowed. (10 hours of prison or 10 days of exile)
The engagment of battle within the town for the purpose of practicing or training is not allowed. (5 hours of prison or 5 days of exile)
***

Now, Obviously according to your laws Elararith should have gotten 20 hours of prison, or at the very least 10 hours. But she gets 5. I find it a bit far fetched when you say no one has ever paid you to get off some hours.

Bumbol Woodstock

Hey, there is someone who has a knowledge of what he discus.
I´m realy wondering. I will follow this.

If we could come up with a system that allows Independent citizens to become independent as it should have been in the beginning, and was even stated that was what was going to happen by Lyrenzia councilors. All of this while keeping severe criminals under the control of the Judicial system, there would be less of a problem here.

Sorry Giandor, I have no idea what the halfling is talking about either. The law clearly says 5 hours for an unjustified attack against another person, but he pulls the number 20 out of thin air.


There IS a system that allows "independent" people to become independant. It is called leaving town. If you choose to live in society, then you're not "independent", so deal with it or leave the society.
You say if it's not under extreme circumstances, "independant" people can kill, rape, and steal from others? Sorry, society doesn't work that way.

You don't seem to understand Fooser. You can't be free from trial and prison just because you are "independent" and don't follow Lyrenzia.
I am also independent of Fooser and don't see you as my ruler either, so does that mean I am free to break laws on you? (assuming Lyrenzia didn't exist).
Just like you might have taken revenge after anyone who wronged you, it's the same reasoning that Lyrenzia needs to enforce laws on everyone.
You don't ask them whether they want to "join" you before you stop a murder or theft do you? Neither does Lyrenzia.

What problem IS there? There IS no problem. The problem is just a bunch of vigilantes who are deluded in thinking that they are fighting for freedom, because they are obssessed with the heroic idea of driving off an invading government from an existing one.
But unfortunately they have absolutely no idea about what is going on when a government arises where there was NO government before in the first place.

Dear Unknown writer who believes I am wrong,

Once again I will show you the law she broke and maybe, just maybe you can put the words together and realize you mistakes:

2. Restrictions to the Engagement of Battle

The engagement of battle should only occur for a justified reason and should be kept to a minimum. (5 hours of prison or 5 days of exile)
The killing or attempt to kill without a valid reason is not allowed. (10 hours of prison or 10 days of exile)
The engagment of battle within the town for the purpose of practicing or training is not allowed. (5 hours of prison or 5 days of exile)

Elararith attempted to kill Cain twice. Hence she deserves 20 hours. But she got 5. Do you understand now unknown writer?

Bumbol Woodstock

Hmm... tricky, tricky... There are 3 solutions, as I see it...

1) Have two governments in one town. Rarely works, but the judicial system could be as follows:
If a person commits a crime on government A, then judges from government B pass the sentence, and vice versa. If a person in government A commits a crime against a person in government B, then judges from both governments pass a sentence on him, giving him twice the sentence.

2)A seperate town is built for the nonfollowers of Lyrenzia. Pretty self-explanatory.

3)Open war.

Dear Bumbol, I did not see anywhere in your argument where you mentioned Elaralith attacking Cain twice. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously then you should take the time to make a complete argument with all the necessary information.


You claim that Elaralith killed Cain twice, however your quote from Lyrenzia clearly shows the charge against Elaralith:

Elaralith has been found guilty of the following charges:
1) Cain Freemont accuses Elaralith of an unjustified attack against herself

The total sentence for these crimes are 5 hours of prison.

Elaralith now has 24 hours to choose imprisonment. If she does not choose imprisonment by this time, she will then be labeled as "Exile" for 5 days.

The charge made against Elaralith clearly matches the law for 5 hours of prison, and does not mention the word "kill" anywhere. It also clearly shows that there is only one charge, and no mention of multiple counts of a crime.

Whether or not Cain wanted or specifically expressed desire for a specific law violation charge, I can't be sure. Perhaps Cain did not specify how many counts he wanted to charge either. Perhpas it's not even possible to prosecute someone on multiple counts of the same crime. We can't sure of any of that. But in the end, this was the charge laid by Lyrenzia and nobody complained and so that was the charge that was used for the trial.

The point is that Lyrenzia gave the appropriate punishment for the exact charge that Elaralith was convicted of. No more and no less.

Paul rips the original paper from the trial and posts it on the board again.

((http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... sc&start=0))

People did argue with the sentence. Cain claimed that Elaralith attacked him 3 times. How can you argue a fact without any evidence for yourself?

Probably because you're arguing for a point that nobody disagreed with in the first place.
People did agrue with the sentence. Good point. Except for the fact that it's irrelevant for you to mention that because nobody here said they didn't.

What noobdy argued was the charge, and a sentence is based on the charge that the criminal was convicted of.

I doubt people would be happy if they were charged of theft and then sentenced for arson, 2 murders, and 3 rapes.

Hmmm...I wonder Bumbol and some others I will not mention why are you discussing something you know virtually nothing about?

I was accused of unjustified attack by Cain on himself. Never did Cain accuse me of murder. Whether or not I actually attacked Cain is irrelevant as the trial took its course and a judgment was made...

Bumbol, no where in the laws of Lyrenzia does it say "20 hours of prison for unjustfied attack"... please refrain from posting to the public your deranged imaginations...you make a fool of yourself.

Note: I never gave any ingots to Lyrenzia so I don't know what you are whining and complaining about Bumbol.

I was unsure of the good intentions of Lyrenzia in the recent past...but after reading your insane ramblings and rantings against Lyrenzia Bumbol and reading the reasonable replies of Lyrenzia I must say I am THOROUGHLY convinced that Lyrenzia is a good institution for good and that it is quite flawless in its laws except for the lack of a law that jails idiotic fools like you Bumbol.

You will fit right in with Lyrenzia Elaralith.

.....your deranged imaginations...you make a fool of yourself..... I don't know what you are whining and complaining about.....after reading your insane ramblings and rantings.....the lack of a law that jails idiotic fools like you

You have a similar turn of phrase when answering simple questions.

Algoran.

Hmmm Did I hit something there Elararith? I think I did, and if you read the rules. Unjustified attacks are 10 hours just like murders. Oh yes, I will not go so low as you and insult your intelligence. However I will ask a certain question: Elaralith are you still a priestess of Elara, because you certainly don't act it now do ya?

Bumbol Woodstock

Once he reached the mainland Grant Herion recieved a letter from a hawk. In it he read all of what was happening in town and smiled when he read about Elaralith, he sent the hawk back with another letter to go on the wall.

Dear Elaralith, I find it funny that you are stooping so low as to insult people's intelligence when they hit a spot you don't like. Well, here is another little thing you may not like the public to know... Remember when you told me that to be a good Nargun follower would be to cause chaos in town. I believe that is why you don't want a police force in town, you want chaos in town. I also find it funny that you thought I was dumb enough to fall for it.

Truely,
Grant Herion

Bumbol. I thougt that you were the first who discuss against Lyrenzia.
The other only take notes and had no arguments.
But will you now discuss about Elaralith or Lyrenzia?
I´m wondring.

Sir J.Giandor

"The engagement of battle should only occur for a justified reason and should be kept to a minimum. (5 hours of prison or 5 days of exile)"
That's the law as it is, the prison time isn't 10 hours, unless of course someone dies.

The answer for you revolutionists is very simple.

Live out in the wilderness, and plot Lyrenzia's destruction there. That way, you can live freely without them applying laws to only those they favor, while labeling the social outcasts.

The killing or attempt to kill without a valid reason is not allowed. (10 hours of prison or 10 days of exile)

Do you see the law I am referring to? Elaralith attempted to kill Cain twice. For a invalid reason, her only defense was Cain badgered her. And I doubt that is a good reason for a "priestess" of Elara to lash out at anyone twice.

Bumbol Woodstock

My dear Bumbol sometimes the only cure for such foolishness as is evidently in you is by lashings. It is said the wise heed teaching, but fools need lashing to be taught. Evidently this is the case with you, and I am only your temporary (unfortunate) teacher in no doubt a series of many who you will plague with your foolishness.

Elaralith, tell me how I am being foolish, or stupid or iggnorant for that matter. You call me foolish but do not say why. This is another problem with you, you call people names, acting higher then them, but you have no reasons to. Elaralith, I am nearly thinking of talking to the Elves of Eldamar about you.

Bumbol Woodstock

I´m wondring how many notes existing for your duel.

There is no "why" in foolishness. There is a "how" though. And in your case the "how" can be easily seen from your many whinings concerning Lyrenzia in the recent past.

You seek to speak to the "Elves of Eldamar" concerning me? You are speaking to one though I have heard enough of your words and have none more to speak to you about.

Point them out please Elaralith.

Bumbol Woodstock