Illarion.org

2) this thread, if not closed will be the complete mirror image of that long thread from some days ago.
just, because now players from "the other group" feel molested.

...
Abuse of power and (perceived) mistreatment of players by the adminstration doesn't make me feel molested, but it does make me angry. This isn't about your circles (INGAME STUFF most of the time.. Player to Player at worst. "boo-hoo, that character slapped my character") anymore, but staff unfairness towards players. This is not a popularity contest, and thus the punishments should not be given on those grounds. Ever. If you actually believe that *this* is the fair and right thing to do, then in my eyes you have forever become a hypocrite for requesting 'fairness' and 'consideration' from the 'other group' ( ) of players.

So, it would have been better if he had called him a douchebag, a dipshit or alternatively would it be more acceptable if he had called me (a handsome, manly and perfectly straight man) a cocksucker? The reason of name-calling (which was not the fact that Dij is gay) would have still been the same. Could he have called him something else? (or even better, to say nothing at all) Yes. Would that have made any difference with the actual point of it? No.

Now, of course you can disagree.

As for the server being privately funded; Yes. That is true. But it also means, that the current decision affects the other society members not all of whom are really happy with it (which, under this argument, should matter). On the other hand, fairness (or lack therof) is not something which you can simply ignore on those grounds in my eyes. Or you can, but I'm 100% sure that not everyone in the society agrees with that kind of approach, not even some of those who may support the punishment in this situation for whatever reason of their own. In my eyes, the staff has the power to do things, but not necessarily the moral right to do things. They lack the right now.

You moan about abuse of power where you know no details. Where you have no know no details. Discussion without background informations are worse.

Did anyone of the few who moan and want to discuss even asked the two if they feel misstreated? If they do not understand even slightly why that happend?

There were reasons. If you are not willing to accept that its your problem. Think about that there are more things then you know. And do not even think about asking for the reasons. The players who got punished made the misstakes not you. They have any right to know what they did wrong. And they know it. You do not have the right to know about the misstakes others did.

Nitram

To me it looks like half the people in this thread, including Fianna, misunderstood the announcement.

Exactly what Thorvald said, nobody is forcing anyone to kill DF and WE. Nobody is trying to use players to kill those chars.
There is no scheduled ban or execution.

All that happened is: the "permkill only with player concent" rule was lifted off of them. It was done to reinvoke the characters' lost fear of dying.

Konrad Knox wrote:To me it looks like half the people in this thread, including Fianna, misunderstood the announcement.

Exactly what Thorvald said, nobody is forcing anyone to kill DF and WE. Nobody is trying to use players to kill those chars.
There is no scheduled ban or execution.

Just to clear things up:

Nitram says:
you can be sure that we will make sure that you get caught

This isn't a matter of choice; our chars are being banned, they're just giving us the chance to wrap up before that happens.

Otherwise: Our characters are scared of death, sure; but they aren't scared of 1 dwarf or people who are obviously making no attempt to attack.

It was announced in a semi-nice way, but as William noted, I think we all know what it meant, it was announced publicly, in a sticky, on top of our main forum (which I find unfortunate for more reasons than one, does anyone think about how bad that looks?) There have been many players who have done worse, and they got treated nice compared to this. Enforcing the rules is one thing, but spitting in peoples faces on their way out is another.

Those who acted worser got a "You got banned, kthxbai"

These two got a chance to finish their roleplay. We could just have banned them as well, but I guess thats the nicer option for everyone including these two.
At then ends its about teaching them what they done wrong so they remember it and something like this does not happen again.

Nitram

Hello!

Now you really got me angry. Thanks for quoting me out of context from an "internal forum" without consulting me.

With kind regards
PO Magdha Tiefenerz

The boards that was takes from, was public at this time. It pretty worse still to do with without asking the quoted one.

But that is a amazing example. 8 persons have to moan, discuss and shout around. While the 310 other players do not say anything. Maybe they agree, maybe not. But it seems they accept. Or they don't care. Anyway. The one you hear are the ones who cry loudest.

Nitram

Hey Nitram. Maybe hyou should just stop reading these threads all together. As you said earlier your getting annoyed by them, so why continue to prepetuate that feeling by adding to the flame war?

The reason this whole mess has gotten this far was that the method used in handling this problem was based on anger or annoyance toward a group of players. And before you go telling me i don't have details i'd suggest you think again, i know plenty. and because i know the situation i'm not stupid enough to say the GM's made the wrong choice in banning these characters, because they didn't and even if they did it's nothing we can change.

Players should never have to see a thread like the one posted at the top of the general forum. Mainly because it blows the situation way to far out of proportion. All the players see is a GM or Staff member asking them as the players to risk themselves to execute players that are to be banned when the staff could simply ban them. That probably wasn't the intention of the post (though of course maybe it was considering the circumstance) But the players are not your police force and we're definatly not your execution witnesses. IF players don't get a choice in this matter why bring it to public attention in such a way. All things said and done it just doesn't look good and doesn't make anyone feel good.

The staff of Illarion does alot for the the players, but the tired 'I spend X amount of hours on this game without pay" line needs to stop to. If you didn't want to do it then you'd quit. If you don't want to do it now, then hell quit, see you around and thanks for the fun. The Staff likes the game just as much as the players, and by proxy they like having people enjoy the game they work so hard to make.

anyway AT LEAST could we have that thread Arien started removed, it's just an ugly reminder of something that's already done, and no one needs to see it anymore.

Well.. the quote was ment to Arien .. this behaviour was still very very clumsy, unsensitive and cynical Nitram. You can say what you want.. this is my meaning.

BTW.: I don't moan, i really try to see both sides. And I have send an PM to PO Magda...so don't judge Nitters...I'm really not the person who crys and flames.

Athian wrote:Hey Nitram.

Hey Athian.

Athian wrote:Maybe hyou should just stop reading these threads all together.

Maybe you should not join in those discussions.

Athian wrote:As you said earlier your getting annoyed by them,

Mainly I get annoyed by useless discussions. I always hope that discussions turn out productive.

Athian wrote:so why continue to prepetuate that feeling by adding to the flame war?

Why do you start posting here? Do you want to annoy me as well?

Athian wrote:The reason this whole mess has gotten this far was that the method used in handling this problem was based on anger or annoyance toward a group of players.

That shows that you speak without any background informations or false background informations. However I don't feel like telling you now every dirty detail because I feel it would be useless anyway and unfair against those who maybe said you something wrong. "Everyone lies"

Athian wrote:And before you go telling me i don't have details

You have noone or you have false informations! What you write here clearly shows that.

Athian wrote:i'd suggest you think again,

I think about it quite often and the result is: You know nothing. Face it. Not everyone tells you every detail and only the truth.

Athian wrote:i know plenty.

false informations.

Athian wrote:and because i know the situation

You do not.

Athian wrote:i'm not stupid

thats good.

Athian wrote:enough to say the GM's made the wrong choice in banning these characters,

Then we agree in this.

Athian wrote:because they didn't and even if they did it's nothing we can change.

2 points for you.

Athian wrote:Players should never have to see a thread like the one posted at the top of the general forum.

Okay. But how to inform then about the things then? Would a newsmail be any better?

Athian wrote:Mainly because it blows the situation way to far out of proportion.

Yes it does. But you know who blows? The few persons (not including the banned ones) who have to discuss that even if they are not effected.

Athian wrote:All the players see is a GM or Staff member asking them as the players to risk themselves to execute players that are to be banned when the staff could simply ban them.

I guess thats not what the most here see. The most here fear that this could happen to their own characters as well. Cromwell stated that. So I wonder why do SOME players fear that the Illarion Staff starts to enforce the rules? Do they break them on a regular base too? Or why do they fear?

Athian wrote:That probably wasn't the intention of the post

It was not for sure.

Athian wrote:(though of course maybe it was considering the circumstance)

Not even that.

Athian wrote:But the players are not your police force and we're definatly not your execution witnesses.

Again you show that you understand nothing and post without any thinking. That way of treatment is to give the characters a way to get out of the game that is a little more roleplay like then "u r banned, bye"
Thats a courtesy of the staff towards the banned players. Don't consider the staff as that dumb that we lean back now and relax, waiting that someone says "Hey they killed 40 characters but i killed them after they killed all others finally"

Athian wrote:IF players don't get a choice in this matter why bring it to public attention in such a way.

Is there any other way to tell the players that these two are "killable"? The effect of that action is not there, if noone knows that.

Athian wrote:All things said and done it just doesn't look good and doesn't make anyone feel good.

Do not say anyone while you speak of 10 players out or more then 300.

Athian wrote:The staff of Illarion does alot for the the players,

Yes.

Athian wrote:but the tired 'I spend X amount of hours on this game without pay" line needs to stop to.

Its up to the players to make it unneeded.

Athian wrote:If you didn't want to do it then you'd quit.

I want to do it but I want appreciation for my work as well. And that appreciation is worse if you works is honored by flame wars.

Athian wrote:If you don't want to do it now, then hell quit, see you around and thanks for the fun.

I guess if every staff member would quite in case the players annoy him, Illarion would be offline. The last one turns off the light.

Athian wrote:The Staff likes the game just as much as the players,

Indeed. The game not the players.

Athian wrote:and by proxy they like having people enjoy the game they work so hard to make.

Indeed. But that proxy goes missing. I can't see players enjoying the game. All i see is moaning.

Athian wrote:anyway AT LEAST could we have that thread Arien started removed,

That topic will be removed as soon as the topic is solved. While the moaning of the ones who are not involved changed nothing but annoyed everyone, the normal speaking of the ones who are involved with the staff solved the topic.

Athian wrote:it's just an ugly reminder of something that's already done, and no one needs to see it anymore.

A remember that the staff tried to give the players a chance to give their characters a end, beside just taking them out of the game. Sadly that noone here ( it seems but Faladron ) is able to understand it for whatever reasons.

Nitram

Glad to see you know how to use the quote button. Nitram, Nice try on being clever there in the first few lines, and i'll join whichever discussion i'd like thank you. thats what happens in a public thread and stop playing cynic on anyone with a different retrospective, it really doesn't do anything for you.

The main reasons are the major offences against the rules 1, 6, 8, 9, 10 and 13."

I believe this is one of your own from the internal boards ( Avaylon was being my parrot ). So unless i can't read, or your a liar then i'd say the information was pretty accurate.

This is easy to understand, all i'm saying is it looked unfair even if it wasn't unfair, and that because only one side of this was known. People see GM's starting a witch hunt instead of dealing with a problem themselves in a much simplier and quicker manner. They don't see the the fact that your offering the players of characters an ending. It's all about the look when it comes to things like this. The truth of the matter gets lost in all the fuss.


And yes Nitram I love to annoy only you, doing so keeps me youthful and healthy. In fact the only reason i started playing again was JUST to hear your oh so witty banter. I'm just glad you realized it. Bug you soon

So now the question is how did you got that quote and is your source trustable?

My source was Avaylon at the time who unlike most everyone else (these people attack my MSN like there's no tomorrow when anything happens) was fairly calm about the matter at the time, It was myself who asked to know exactly what was going on however.

And i know plenty of others, Staff and otherwise who have acess to the Internal boards. I was snooped because every five seconds an MSN meesage popped up on my screen or i was invited into a ranting chat room. Wanted to know WHY everyone felt the need to bother me.
quote was confrimed by more then one person as well, for the record

And I can believe the quote just by looking at the rules in question and placing them respectively to the activities that Will and Dom were involved in. Seems credible enough considering that the infractions listed were all on the mark.

Just makes me sad that so many people felt the need to quit because of this, real waste ya know.

do not speak of many while you speak of 5 or 6 persons. 3 of them return anyway. at least.

You always listen to those who moan loudest and not to those who are the most in count.

Nitram

Alright Nitram if you say so. Being that i consider your side in the right I guess it's the Staff and there supporters that moans loudest? Just because i hear the whiners doesn't mean i always agree with them. Gnash your teeth all you want at me, since i pretty much already lean toward your side of the arguement, it's kind like biting yourself.

The staff listens to the ones who the majority of the players and tries to make the minority that is the reason for useless topics like this understand and/or be quiet.

And with your former post confused me. It appears you know about the misstakes of the two players. At least what rules they broke. I tend to think that you do not know any details behind, since I did not post that details at the board the apparently not trustworthy staff members have access to.

In anyway it sounds to me like you want to say that out punishment was false. That we shall let the ones who break rules run around freely. It does not work that way, sorry. That punishment was a step towards the banned players. They were thankfull for that step as it seems. All others, not affected in any way, are not.

Strange isn't it?

When your name is in such a topic you may moan. Now you can remain quiet.

Nitram

Without the intention to offend anyone but trying to have a neutral perspectice: There is much more truth in Athian's comment than Nitram acknowledges.

The main argument I want to underline is:
The very first posting by Arien was written in an inadequate way. It gave the impression if the author had strong emotional feelings while writing it, the posting was not neutral, it gave no background, there were no explanations, no reasons for the rules these two characters have broken.

But all these are crucial questions for the playerbase. If these issues are not addressed at all in the first posting, it is nothing but logic that playerbase asks for reasons. Why? Well, players want to paly a game where they undersand what is going on. Dubious posting like the named one are the opposite of transparency.

Well, if the Staff has not the slightest intention to have a certain level of transparency, then the game Illarion has to define itself in a new way, I'm afraid.


Just to make sure: This is not a flame thread but a comment to better future communicatins between staff and playerbase.

That were not the the importaint questions to the playerbase. It was the importaint questions to 10 players who are nothing but curious and sensation-seeking. Not involved in any way. They started that waste.

And this here is maybe not a flame topic but its a useless topic. Beside of the point that Athian blamed now the two players public for their misstakes in detail, something we wanted to avoid.

That was done by that topic. I'm out of that useless discussion. As i said, its solved already any way.

And just to let you know. If one of all you others do some misstakes in future and will get banned, I will not tell your sensation-seeking friends every detail why you got banned. As usual.

Merry Christmas.
Nitram

Enough.

All I have read for the past page, page and a half or so, were people argueing over the banning. They are banned, and will eventually be killed IG. The thing is, is that both of these characters seem to be fairly important to many pieces of roleplay, and they are being given a chance to tidy up memories of them, and basically let the roleplay they started, survive without them, (eg, william is leader of caelum, this is a chance for him to decide who would be the next leader.) As such, if your character is involved in such roleplay, then your technically involved, but you probably already know what they did so you won't be exploading on the forums. Unfortunatly the execution must be legalized by the staff before hand, so if you do end up killing one of them a gm must be there, to witness it. Which was the whole purpose of the topic mentioned, IMHO.

To Will and DF, I am sorry to see it end this way, but the staff said it was time to end.
To the staff, thank you for keeping the game running, and working on it even when people moan and complain about something that makes their character worse, but I believe this could have been handled differently and I have no idea how, but don't flame me for my belief.
To the general people, the staff decided what was going to happen, and we can not change it. We aren't even really involved. I am not saying worship and consider everything the staff does as perfect, but they are human. Please treat them as such, or as judges, but not as demons nor gods.
To Nitram, please...calm down. We understand your annoyed, and understand that this is not a good situation, for anyone.

Deep breathes, and happy feelings to all. A ban is not easy for anyone, because it enstills fear into peoples hearts, even when not involved.Now, for all those who care, and those who don't, I wish you all happy holidays.

Greisling wrote: The main argument I want to underline is:
The very first posting by Arien was written in an inadequate way. It gave the impression if the author had strong emotional feelings while writing it, the posting was not neutral, it gave no background, there were no explanations, no reasons for the rules these two characters have broken.

If a judge walks out of court and sees other people for a private round of poker, and during that round he says something along the lines:

"Today I sentenced a murder to a lifelong prison sentence, good lords did that guy deserve it."

Does he act wrong at that time?
Is a judge not allowed to have a personal (and maybe biased) opinion about the cases he has to rule over as long as it does not affect the decision itself?

Now compare this to the thing you mentioned:

A GM writes upon a private board that has nothing directly to do with the game, after the decision has been made, an announcement to said decision and includes his personal opinion about the matter at hand.

Can you proove that the opinion voiced by the GM / judge did in any way affect his decision?

I think you can not, and you have to keep in mind that even a GM or a judge is nothing more than a human who has to enforce rules.
Sometimes he may have to enforce rules although he does not want to
(i.e. a player wellknown to the gm has broken a rule), nevertheless
he has to apply the rules to him although he would (and that may be his personal opinion) rather not do anything.

On the otherhand a GM might have an opinion as a player and may voice that opinion as he pleases as long as it does not affect his work (or is being announced officially using his GM position).

I dont think a GM is a high morale person such as a judge so you have to weight every word he speaks in public and cry "Impeachment!" as soon as he voices a personal opinion somewhere.
(or will you start to put down gms for the (jokingly) written things they might send in IM Programs or their personal opinion about other people?)

If a judge walks out of court and sees other people for a private round of poker, and during that round he says something along the lines:

"Today I sentenced a murder to a lifelong prison sentence, good lords did that guy deserve it."

More on the lines of

"Hey, remember that guy who fought with you old friend? Gave you a christmas present, we're goign to kill him"
---

Nitram wrote:You moan about abuse of power where you know no details. Where you have no know no details. Discussion without background informations are worse.

And that is why telling everyone to be quiet and not get any more details is such a good way of brainwashing people.

Um... I'd really rather not post anything more here for fear of messing with Nitters' 10:300 ratio, but...

What is trying to be said here? Without the insinuations and the veiled jabs please... Darting back and forth like this with the same arguments rephrased doesn't really solve anything- indeed it seems to cover up the issue... (for small minded people like me at any rate ^_^)

I don't understand what's going on now except that a few players think the GMs where a bit tactless... At least... that's what I see between all the insults... Is that what everyone's arguing about?

And can we, as players and staff respecting other players and staff, try to curb the urge to respond to every tiny perceived slight with something we see as just as nasty?

Perhaps pissing contests like that belong some where, but (and I'm not all that bright, so maybe I'm wrong ^_^) with feelings running hot enough on a topic that's obviously this sensitive perhaps we should cut the personal attacks and focus on what we think are the problems and politely suggest solutions or rejections?

(PLEASE DON'T HURT ME!!! >_<)

So, this is my thread and I want to tie up some of the thoughts here just to bring some focus.

Thorvald wrote:

The decision that has been made for W.E and D.F is not going to be 'common' at all. But there IS a border. Point is after all that happened the last action of them was something IC , so there will be an IC punisment. MAYBE.
You have to consider that NOTHING happened yet. No government said now "Oh sweet, lets go and kill them off." This decision will hopefully only one effect: That the PO W.E. and D.F. maybe consider next times their character are doing something ingame:

"Oh wait. This might have consequences for me. Does my character want to die?"

I want to thank Thorvald for clearing this up in an impartial way. I really found that helpful.


Fooser wrote:

It was announced in a semi-nice way, but as William noted, I think we all know what it meant, it was announced publicly, in a sticky, on top of our main forum (which I find unfortunate for more reasons than one, does anyone think about how bad that looks?) There have been many players who have done worse, and they got treated nice compared to this. Enforcing the rules is one thing, but spitting in peoples faces on their way out is another.

I think this is the real issue here.


Nitram wrote:

I slowly get really annoyed.

Everyone who is not effected even slightly: Shut up.

There is no point of discuss anything.

The point I was trying to make was how upsetting it was to the community. Like it or not, there is a community of players feeling the effects of staff decisions. When things are handled in a cold way, the players notice. Unfortunately, when things are handled respectfully, maybe they don't notice as well. I'm not sure that telling us to shut up is helpful in the end. There is obviously something to discuss here.

There is obviously something to discuss here.

only, that we in this comunity are not able to discuss.
each and every intent for discussion turns to flame and slander.
maybe, that is, why the staff does not like to discuss with us?

Uuh.. I just wanted to wish you all a Merry Christmas..

I do not think it is fair for korm to single out illarion's community as difficult to stay cordial with one and another.

I have not come across a single internet forum that doesn't have flame wars that make our wars look like a school girl fight. (If anyone wants a good laugh look up utopia and go to its politics forums, racism, genocide, communism, facism are all the norm there).

It would be easier for everyone though if we would take a few days to breathe before we write anything on most issues.

I reckon if everyone who was about to post a flame filled post waited an hour or so to post it they would decline to post.

The more people in a community, the less they care about each others (more individualist and tend to have small groups) and the more they flame, always been that way. The staff wanted more players, they got them, but they gotta cope with all the things that come with it.

I'm a complete newcomer to Illarion, so I don't know any of the people involved. However, I've been staff on other forums and had to deal with this type of situation from the "power" side. These decisions are *never* made lightly - usually there's been a lot of soul-searching, and obviously the problems have been going on for a while.

The part people don't want to accept is that the "sins" these players committed are not made public. Think about it. Would you want YOUR personal business made public?

I have news. This "secrecy" is how Real Life(tm) works. When the female department head decides to screw the Vice President late at night on a desk in an office with *glass walls*, the management does not announce this flagrant violation of common sense. (In this real life example, both people kept their jobs.) When an employee is disciplined because of repeatedly asking a young secretary out on a date (which is sexual harassment if she's already stated she's not interested), they don't post it on the bulletin board in the break room.

Not only is this sort of publicity fruitless, it violates the privacy of the rulebreakers involved (and could also cost them their marriages, etc.) Companies don't tell everyone what happens because they have to think about liability and how things will look to others.

Being "in power" looks easy and fun from the outside - in reality, the responsibility brings tons of headaches, requires you to worry about things that you *never* had to consider before, and subjects you to constant second-guessing from armchair quarterbacks who do not know the whole story. And after spending hours of your own time discussing the situation with other staff members, there are all these accusations of unfairness - usually after you've spent weeks bending over backwards trying to accommodate someone and get them to follow the rules, trying to avoid being forced to a final and drastic solution. Please don't sell the staff short - though nobody is perfect, in general people usually are doing their best to be fair.

=============================

On the RP side: I perceived the forum announcement in the same light as a "Wanted: Dead or Alive" poster put up by the local government for an outlaw. Of course I do not know any of the RP details so that may not fit the storyline - it was just my personal take on it.

=============================

For the players *directly* involved, I have one suggestion. If you have resigned yourself to the punishment then perhaps a "confession" of some sort would help the community a bit: acknowledging that your broke rules or somehow took advantage, and acquiescing to the assigned punishment.

Obviously this would be voluntary (though one could alternatively pretend that the Admins "put you to The Question" and forced you to "confess" lol.)

I think the Admins agreeing to RP these characters' deaths rather than simply banning them is ... highly unusual, innovative and admirable. And kudos to the affected players for electing to participate in closing out their storylines.

Finally, I liked this post above and wanted to repeat it.

Vern Kron wrote:Enough.

All I have read for the past page, page and a half or so, were people argueing over the banning. They are banned, and will eventually be killed IG. The thing is, is that both of these characters seem to be fairly important to many pieces of roleplay, and they are being given a chance to tidy up memories of them, and basically let the roleplay they started, survive without them, (eg, william is leader of caelum, this is a chance for him to decide who would be the next leader.) As such, if your character is involved in such roleplay, then your technically involved, but you probably already know what they did so you won't be exploading on the forums. Unfortunatly the execution must be legalized by the staff before hand, so if you do end up killing one of them a gm must be there, to witness it. Which was the whole purpose of the topic mentioned, IMHO.

To Will and DF, I am sorry to see it end this way, but the staff said it was time to end.
To the staff, thank you for keeping the game running, and working on it even when people moan and complain about something that makes their character worse, but I believe this could have been handled differently and I have no idea how, but don't flame me for my belief.
To the general people, the staff decided what was going to happen, and we can not change it. We aren't even really involved. I am not saying worship and consider everything the staff does as perfect, but they are human. Please treat them as such, or as judges, but not as demons nor gods.
To Nitram, please...calm down. We understand your annoyed, and understand that this is not a good situation, for anyone.

Deep breathes, and happy feelings to all. A ban is not easy for anyone, because it enstills fear into peoples hearts, even when not involved.Now, for all those who care, and those who don't, I wish you all happy holidays.

+1

Because I was asked not to argue about this anymore, I've stayed out. However..

blossom wrote:The part people don't want to accept is that the "sins" these players committed are not made public. Think about it. Would you want YOUR personal business made public?

I wouldn't mind, really. Open discussion is never bad, and that would allow others to decide what they think in regards to the accuracy of the accusations.

I have news. This "secrecy" is how Real Life(tm) works. When the female department head decides to screw the Vice President late at night on a desk in an office with *glass walls*, the management does not announce this flagrant violation of common sense. (In this real life example, both people kept their jobs.) When an employee is disciplined because of repeatedly asking a young secretary out on a date (which is sexual harassment if she's already stated she's not interested), they don't post it on the bulletin board in the break room.

However, in real life there are plenty of frameworks to operate in, as well as checks and balances for people in any position of authority which simply do not exist here. Here there are few to no restraints. When your boss decides to break your contract on grounds which you feel are 'wrong' or 'unjust' you can always contact the Department of Labor (I assume you're from the US ) or go to a court for impartial review of the situation. Here you cannot, thus the secrecy which in some situations might be acceptable in real life will only serve to disencourage and hamper anyone from questioning the decision of the staff (which is not always right or made after an objective review of the situation).

Being "in power" looks easy and fun from the outside - in reality, the responsibility brings tons of headaches, requires you to worry about things that you *never* had to consider before, and subjects you to constant second-guessing from armchair quarterbacks who do not know the whole story. And after spending hours of your own time discussing the situation with other staff members, there are all these accusations of unfairness - usually after you've spent weeks bending over backwards trying to accommodate someone and get them to follow the rules, trying to avoid being forced to a final and drastic solution. Please don't sell the staff short - though nobody is perfect, in general people usually are doing their best to be fair.

Well, you know.. the staff is human and thus prone to making mistakes, sometimes they do need some second-guessing from us armchair quarterbacks, if for no other reason than to bring out the differing opinion. While yes-men might make the staff feel better of themselves, I believe that it's us difficult SoBs that offer chance for some real development more often. As the history in the game has shown, sometimes it would have been smart to listen for the armchair quarterbacks from the start (magic system.. I told you so!) because sometimes we might not be difficult on principle, but rather because we're smart and actually have some logic to back our opinions up with. You can, of course, disagree with my assesment.

On the RP side: I perceived the forum announcement in the same light as a "Wanted: Dead or Alive" poster put up by the local government for an outlaw. Of course I do not know any of the RP details so that may not fit the storyline - it was just my personal take on it.

Just FYI, that was not RP. It was an ooc announcement, pure and simple. If you bother to look at the actual RP-areas of the board, then you'll notice that there are some such IG 'wanted' notes around.

For the players *directly* involved, I have one suggestion. If you have resigned yourself to the punishment then perhaps a "confession" of some sort would help the community a bit: acknowledging that your broke rules or somehow took advantage, and acquiescing to the assigned punishment.

Well, the players might not agree with the punishment to begin with (I'm simply throwing some theory here ) and might have been (while actually doing some bad things) also have been accused & punished for things they may not have committed at all. Because their ability to prove their innoncence of those crimes is directly related to how much the staff wants to listen to them and check things, it's actually pretty hard for them to disprove any accusation made against them. This is simply because the staff has already decided to punish them when making it public for the accused and thus doesn't really 'care' about finding out possible evidence (or false claims of rule violation) that would potentially lessen the justification or required amount of punishment.

The reason why the accused might outwardly agree with the punishment might be that they simply don't want to be punished worse (which can very well happen here if you choose to publically reveal or challenge the reasons why you are punished and then decide to debate the reasons in public). Just how such potentially half-hearted confessions to somehow 'prove' the 'just punishment' of the 'criminal players' by the powers that be a la the soviet union would help the community as whole is beyond me.

I think the Admins agreeing to RP these characters' deaths rather than simply banning them is ... highly unusual, innovative and admirable. And kudos to the affected players for electing to participate in closing out their storylines.

Well, it doesn't sound so admirable when you consider that at least some of the staff simply rooted for the punishment so 'people could get back at them'. That's not innovative or admirable, that's medieval by default. Maybe I'm being an idealist. Punishments should be justice, not appeasement of any presumed 'victims' or creation of a lynchmob.

Besides, who knows if the staff has changed it's decision in regards to the punishment..