Most likely you are a long way off from being a good roleplayer and that is the main reason that you see all other good roleplayers as "extremist".
Umm...no. ( notice: flaw in speaking, almost like a insult. Be less harsh on words so it smore friendly. Just giving tips )
Well Elaralith Why dont you consider this from someone else's point of view. You are not always correct. You may be too much into this Rolepaying but you may not know. There is nothing wrong in it but just look at it as if you were someone else. (notice I am being nice and not yelling ) Have you considred about teaching others how to roleplay?
Hunger and thirst may be natural things but it just does not fit into Illarion environment for me. If it was to be implemented then Illarion would just not be Illarion for me anymore.
perhaps i didnt post that right i said "i see what serpedum is saying, its just another hassel" i meant that as we might as well give it up and made a suggestion. maybe i didnt make that very clear but geesh you dont have to insult me. i still like the idea of food and drink bars.
@Kringin I am always "teaching" so to speak. Many players I "teach" to be better roleplayers. The problem is not that I don't teach its that some players just don't want to be taught. The student can only benefit if he listens to the teacher's teaching. And no, I am not "too much into" roleplaying. It is just a hobby of mine like any other. A hobby is defined by something that a person does with a passion because of much interest. And that is what roleplaying is to me. Not an obsession etc.
@Gro'bul Its easy to misinterpret what others type on the boards because of the fact that a person cannot "hear" the undertones to what another is saying and only read. If I misunderstood you I apologize.
I personally do not like this idea one bit. If there is hunger and thirst requirements then you ARE forced into doing things you may not want to do for roleplaying reasons such as fast for any number of reasons because your character could die (and this is not something you envision for your character when thinking of a scenario to act out but the risk is what you wish to encounter and then avoid, and this is what makes the roleplay exciting, not the restrictions and limitations that force you to do certain things), such as being lost in the desert or woods for a few days or weeks. Yes I know this would cause your health to go down in real life and you should act this out in character but you should not be limited in what your character can do!
Another huge problem I see with this idea even if it were to be thought about seriously by the programmers is the that the time frame of illarion must be considered when deciding on how long a person can go without food or drink before they die. There is still no set time relation in illarion, one day in real life could be anywhere from one illarion day to four illarion days. It would take a few weeks in real life to die from hunger and a week or so of not drinking to die. Now this would just be cumbersome in illarion to have to eat every few days just to keep a bar from dropping too low, when in fact the whole purpose is to add realism. Realism should be added by each individual player in the way they see fit and not by writing more code to force people to do certain things when there are numerous situations when a viable alternative could be acted out realistically, adding to the depth of the roleplaying world. This would all be nullified if a structure such as this were implemented. Diversity would be lost if ideas like this were put into the game.
Elaralith, you have said on another board that you do not like the current system of death in illarion. That when your health goes to zero you die because this is a roleplaying game and the player should be able to decide when and where their character dies (unless they are killed for blatantly obvious reasons such as by a demon or a murderer that they can not control) and for this reason they should be knocked unconcious first and then killed. If hunger and thirst are implemented into the game it will take away yet another aspect of the character that the player can control. It will turn illarion more into a simulation than an rpg and this will be extremely detrimental to the atmosphere of illarion, and the game itself.
Restrictions of this sort, while they are designed with the intent to make illarion more realistic will actually take the realism and fun out of playing this game. If your character is near death from hunger you will not have time to act this out, you'll just have to run to the nearest tree if you have no food with you, and this is generally the only way you would become hungry. This will take out the roleplaying that was intended to be forced upon us all because the person will have to make a mad dash to find food and cannot act as though they are hungry for fear of death and skill loss. You may say this is bad roleplaying but you also have to admit that this will take place.
Ideas such as this that limit the possibilities for player control over the variations in how a character can live their life are not what illarion needs at this point. What illarion needs right now is NOT a structure written in code restricting what characters and players can do and cannot do to force everyone to act as though they're roleplaying, what it needs is a system to ensure the players are better roleplayers and are kinds that would do these things on their own in the game. Instructions and advice on how to roleplay more effectively are greatly needed by many of the newer players from the more experienced players, and a second proverbial net should be formed within the game to sift out the players who are not fit for illarions world after a fair chance to acclimate themselves to how roleplaying is meant to be done in this game. It is one thing to be able to write a story in an email describing the actions of a character and to prove you can think in that abstract manner of living the life of another person, but it is another thing to be able to do this on a constant basis within the game.
There are many very poor roleplayers in the game right now that in my humble opinion are not going to change for the better as they've proven this to me time and time again and because of this, they should be removed. At this time however, there is seemingly nothing to be done about this problem. The gms are too busy with other things to get the weeds out of illarion but while they're working hard on trying to make the world a little brighter, the flowers are becoming strangled out by the numerous weeds and have a sincere chance of dying out before anything is done.
The second net should be what we are trying to shoot for to make the pool of players on average better roleplayers, not to make the bad roleplayers in the game currently forced to appear to be good roleplayers. This will only give them incentive to find a way around the original intended purpose of this proposal, you can't force a bad roleplayer to be a good roleplayer. You can only teach them how they should act through instruction and showing them how to be by your own example. Even then, it is up to the individual players to decide if they wish to learn once the seed has been planted into their minds. If they do not they should be removed from the game, and the game should not be formed with them in mind but with the good roleplayers in mind. Only then will the game flourish and blossom as it has the potential to do.
@Niniane You would not be "limited" by what your character can do. If your character is a strong warrior (when you created him you made him have high constitution) then he/she would be able to a long time without food. On the other hand if your character is a frail mage it makes sense that he would not be able to go hungry/thirsty for a long period of time. As well, when I say "death" I think there was a misunderstandment. I did not mean death in the sense where you turn into a cloud in illarion right now. It would be more along the lines of "wounded" if being wounded is ever implemented. And it would not be cumbersome to eat every few days. Do you find it "cumbersome" to eat in RL? Even if you do, you still eat do you not? If not then you must suffer the consequences, and this should definitely happen in illarion. Such ideas add to the roleplaying experience and atmosphere because they allow characters to actually "live" in a very real sense. How would YOU like it if illarion was an environment with no skills to gain, no magic, no spells, no monsters to fight, and nothing to make? That would make illarion not a graphical online RPG, but a common "RP" chatroom. I am sure noone would like that, and if you do that is very peculiar.
The point I was trying to get across but apparently failed to do for some people is that hunger and thirst are things that should be regulated by individuals and not by the programmers. This way each player can decide how long they can go without food and water and can actually act out being hungry and thirsty. To act out how this would affect them and not have to worry about actually becoming injured in their character and in the extreme case, losing skills because they died. This is a very extreme case but it could and would happen. It should be up to the player to decide when their character dies and not other people.
I also said that the problem lies not with the good roleplayers in illarion. These people do eat on a regular basis. The problem lies with the poor roleplayers. A system forcing people to eat will only affect these individuals and not the good roleplayers who already eat. These poor roleplayers will not roleplay eating but will only do so to keep their skills, they will find a bad way around the proposal that was meant to force them to roleplay. That is what this proposal is. An idea that forces everyone to do an action that should be roleplayed out.
Now a better solution is to remove the bad roleplayers from the game once they've made it in and have proven they cannot fit in. This would get rid of the people who would be affected by this proposal. It would remove the ones you're trying to force to eat, the bad roleplayers. Now all that would be left are the good roleplayers, and these people are already eating and drinking on a regular basis. So in essence, this proposal would serve no end. It would not help and would only cause more work and debate for the programmers who would have to write the code, decide on how long a person could go without food and without water (One RL day does not equal one illarion day so a formula would have to be decided on and stuck to). It would also limit the options the good roleplayers have. A person could NOT act out being lost in the desert for a week with no water if the formula decided upon did not allow them to, etc. Another problem would be the different areas of the map requiring more or less food in the name of realism and having to put this into the game. In the desert (a supposedly hot desert but it's not well documented) a person would dehydrate much faster than a person in a damp cave, etc.
So to review: This idea would only be made for the bad roleplayers who should be removed anyway, causing this proposal to be only more unneeded work for the programmers and staff, the good roleplayers already eat and drink and can act out being hungry or thirsty without little sliding bars to tell them to do so. A better proposal would be on creating a system to help ensure the quality of players playing illarion is up to a certain standard once they've been accepted and allowed into the game. Many in my humble opinion are not up to this standard and have been harming the game and forcing the good roleplayers to put their roles on hold because the ones around them are unable to act appropriately and would add nothing to any story lines that have been created by the good roleplayers, they would actually ruin anything creative, and they are damaging the pool of players illarion was made for by outnumbering them and driving them into the shadows.
How about an extra bar that does nothing but is just to show someone who wants to use it how hungry they are? Then the 'hardcore' roleplayers would benefit from being able to use this as a sort of marker, rather than effect your char. Wether it was full, half full/empty, or empty it wouldn't do anything.
@Niniane Again, Hunger/thirst bars would not force anyone to do anything as you keep repeating. A player could let the bars drop to zero;they do not have to eat. But then they must face the very realistic and reasonable consequences of weakening physically. A normal person eats regularily, and their hunger/thirst levels are normal. They are not forced to eat; they just do it out of necessity and habit. RL situation: Who is ever commonly "forced" to eat?
@Caranthir Poison is poison and beer is beer. What we have now is poison, and it should as it does now decrease one's health. It is just roleplayed by players as "beer". When we have beer it should of course raise the Hunger/Thirst bars, but with poison I don't thinks so.
mmmmm beer, anyways, beer glass could be a new glassblowing item and people who have peasantry could grow hops and brew, im sure you'll propose a brewing skill but expanding peasantry is better, if it doesnt encompuss stuff peasants do than you should call it the farming skill, which really is basically all we peasantry people do. i could make the glass mug and hops graphics, well, the hops would be a bit hard but i think i could do it this could also give carpenters a new item "vine pole" which you could use to grow hops and in the future grapes or something.
I read Niniane's post and tried to make sense of it but for the life of me couldn't. Maybe if it were condensed and simpler; as it is though my brain capacity can't handle it.
A lot of people are objecting to this proposal and say that they already eat anyhow because it is just good roleplaying. Well if you already eat anyway for roleplaying reasons then why should you object to the idea of implementing this proposal? It should not effect you.
As far as fasting is concerned then maybe fasting should be put in as a skill. If a person has a high "fasting" skill then they can go longer without food than others but still suffer from fatigue. Fasting is something that people have to gradually build up (realistically).
Take for example everyday religions that use fasting as part of worship.
They have done this their entire life so they have developed ways of slowing heartrate, metabolism, etc. and can go longer without food. I for one do not fast so I could not go without food for nearly as long as someone who fasts on a regular basis.
ok himalayin monk, maybe meditation could be a skill to like make your health/mana regenerate faster and you could go longer without food. only make it so when you meditate it slightly drains your best fighting skill, this way you could meditate for years then train as a fighter, as you think before you act, or if your a good fighter, your health/mana would regen faster.
The reason I object, and apparently have had trouble expressing to others it that it is not the fact that we would have to eat that bothers me. We're not 'forced to eat' so to speak because everyone should be eating on their own, but we are forced to eat on some schedule that is not under our control. We could no longer act out being lost in the desert for a week and three days if the little hunger or thirst bar were programmed to expire in a week and two days. Now do you understand?
It is the schedule that is out of our hands, and cannot realistically be decided as of yet because the illarion calander and RL day-to-game day ratio are apparently still being debated. This doesn't even take into account how there are many situations when players can only come online for a few minutes at a time and should be able to interact with other characters instead of spending their time searching for something to eat when their time is precious and in demand because the last time they were online and their hunger level became very high they had to leave for some unforeseen reason (this situation takes away player interaction for those of you who don't understand what I'm saying). If all players are eating and drinking, which they should because this is proper roleplaying, then why should this be implemented? My point is that if this is implemented it will greatly reduce the number of story lines that could be played out regarding food and drink deprivation due to extenuating circumstances! It adds NO story lines. Anyone can act out being hungry now as they could in the future with this system.
The people who do not eat, are the ones who are bad roleplayers. The bad roleplayers should be removed from the game even after they pass the application system for unforeseen reasons. Once they're gone, everyone left is eating and drinking. Because of this, the proposal of having to eat or drink at arbitrary times (example: every 4 hours) to keep healthy is a hindrance to game play. It will contribute much more aggravation and take away far more possibilities than any good it could ever contribute.
Any benefit of this system (people acting hungry or thirsty) could be and should be acted out in character and not solely based on a program and time frame implemented by others, but by ones own mind. People forget just how valuable the #me command is. It is far better roleplay to use the #me command to signify your own health, emotions, feelings etc. than to have a little bar causing lag that tells you that you are hungry and are now feeling weak. Use your own mind and imagination to affect your character and your character alone, a good roleplayer should not have to rely on a code written into the game for them to realize they're hungry or thirsty. That is my point.
You know as well as I do that the vast majority of the people would fill their stomachs with cherries and apples instead of spending money on anything from a baker. With the introduction of vines into the game recently another source of free food is now available. Only a select few will actually buy anything from a baker and these are the people who for the most part do so anyway for their roleplaying experience. Potions of food will be consumed by druids as well as their reserves of strawberries and onions as well. I highly doubt this proposal will change the lives of many bakers for the better.
hmmm, yes this is true free food is redily available but, if they did imply this they better take away most of those vines because you can eat like almost an infinate number of grapes (ive personally never been full from grapes alone) but if you can be filled its like over 70
Aa far as the time problem your meter would not decrease while you are off line only while you are connected and online. It would be assumed that while off line your character would take care of themselves like sleeping, eating, and drinking.
The best roleplaying game of all time "Dungeons and Dragons" required that you eat, drink and sleep at certain intervals and this did not cause problems.
@Niniane No I definitely "dont know as you do" that most people would fill their stomachs with fruits. You see fruits would only increase the Hunger bar by a small margin whereas bread etc would do a lot more. In that way a significantly increased margin of people would rely on bakers.
@Crocket I agree fully. That is what I have been trying to point as you so well did.
@Sir Gannon Exactly what I have been trying to point out to Separdum...this would definitely change the economy for the better.
Everyone that is grumbling about Hunger/Thirst bar implementation...you all say that you eat regularily already for rp. Going from that knowledge, the implementation of this would not affect you at all, and only cause the non-rpers to tighten up. This proposal would only have positive results for those who wish to roleplay. For those who wish to powergame...they don't belong in this game anyways.
I think we do not need a hunger/thirst bar. I personally prefer a previously proposed stamina bar which would force people to stop working and eat food at the same time to recover stamina as this is more effective and it partially accomplishes what you proposed...
And fish would be better than plain bread. People would only take up fishing if fruit would not provide enough energy. Fishing is much more time effecient than is baking or finding a baker. It would also be free. The bad roleplayers would take advantage of this because it would be free, elemenating the purpose of this. Good roleplayers arlready eat. Bad roleplayers will find a way to get around paying anyone for food. I'm sorry but this will not change the economy for the better, possibly marginally but hardly noticable. It would cause server lag apparently. It would cause more powergaming or out of character skill gain (learning a new skill with a character that should know know that skill) in order to get away with surviving without paying for anything. I see no benifits and many many bad things coming to illarion if this idea is implemented.
Niniane wrote:And fish would be better than plain bread. People would only take up fishing if fruit would not provide enough energy. Fishing is much more time effecient than is baking or finding a baker. It would also be free. The bad roleplayers would take advantage of this because it would be free, elemenating the purpose of this. Good roleplayers arlready eat. Bad roleplayers will find a way to get around paying anyone for food. I'm sorry but this will not change the economy for the better, possibly marginally but hardly noticable.....
so we make it to where you have to use bread as bait in order to fish.
It would cause server lag apparently...
Why?
It would cause more powergaming or out of character skill gain (learning a new skill with a character that should know know that skill)....
powergaming already happens in all areas. There is no way to stop it. People could powergame to increase their magic skill, does this mean that we should not have wizards?
I see no benifits and many many bad things coming to illarion if this idea is implemented.
Please give a list of what this proposal would add to the game if implemented that could only take place with this proposal in place.
I think the main things that this proposal would add in the name of realism are few and far between, and they could and should be instead roleplayed out using #me commands and the actions of characters rather than the code written by others do control these actions on an indiscriminate basis.
-A person would have to eat food to stay 'alive'.
This should be done by the players already, as it is a part of good roleplaying. Only the poor roleplayers do not eat now and this proposal would only be another hurdle for them to get around. It would NOT make them better roleplayers. A better solution is to remove those players who do not roleplay after a given amount of time where they could learn how to do so properly.
-A person would become weakened by lack of food or drink.
This can be done far better with the use of #me commands than any system written in code could accomplish and would allow for much more variation and story lines than the code written would allow.
-It will help the economy by making bakers essential.
No it won't. There are many other means of free food that would become even more exploited than they are today. Fish, meat and fruit are all free to non-bakers. These will only become used more often if there is a hunger system. Bakers will not sell more items. Using bread to catch fish is not a viable solution as most game fish (the fish you eat) are not caught using bread. Catfish or other bottom feeders would be but these are not the fish in the game now.
-It would add more player interaction (ie. with bakers).
No it won't. For explanation read the entire thread.
To touch on the addition of server lag, I was referring to something Caranthir pointed out a few pages ago and I do not know if this is true or not. Something was said about more status bars causing more lag and the name Bror was also mentioned. This is why I said 'apparently', I do not know for sure. It is just a technical problem that if true would be added to the list of in game problems this proposal would create.
yes we dont want anymore server lag (i think its because it takes up more space and bandwitdth) besides yes there are alot of other means by which people could eat, i doubt this will be even considered anytime soon
@everyone stop arguing with serpardum cause it going to get you nowhere
@Gro'bul Noone needs to hear your "I think Serpardum is God" posts, and if you have nothing other than that to say please do not post here. We are not "arguing" with Serpardum, we are having a fruitful discussion between varying opinions.
@Niniane Player interaction would be increased I think. Because of the 10x system one cannot be "master of all crafts" that easily and most people would choose to buy bread from a baker. Economy would definitely be for the better with Baking no longer such a "useless" craft. Because of more player interaction the role playing experience would be improved as well. Good roleplayers already eat so this wouldn't affect them anyways. And as was already mentioned fish would do much less to increase one's Hunger level than would bread making bread a way better option that most people would choose. There are many more pros to this proposal like more realism that I have not mentioned, but little "cons". The best way to fully speculate on the effectiveness and goodness of this proposal would be to have it implemented in the game. Afterall illarion is in the ALPHA stage and proposals are to be experimented with hence the Proposal board. You should stop focusing on what you believe to be the "many many bad things" that would most likely not even come to illarion, and instead see the "many many good benefits" that would definitely come.
@Roke It has already been mentioned that Hunger/Thirst and Stamina are totally different things. Therefore eating and drinking would not increase Stamina anyways when it is implemented. Stamina should be raised back to a healthy level through rest.
@Crocket Good counter-points, but I do not think bread as bait for fish is too good an idea...perhaps there could be something where a fisherman would have to use a Trowel to dig in the soil to find earthworms much like a miner uses a spade to dig up minerals. Then one earthworm would be used up everytime one fished whether one was successful or not. But then more types of fish would have to be introduced that are more valuable than the current trout. Perhaps salmon etc. that would bring in more gold.
Hunger will not be used to make food more sought after, from what I see anyway. So why not come up with another angle?
Yes, it is desirable for food to be more desirable to players.
No, people don't like getting hungry in the game except for what seems to be a minority.
So.. come up with something else.
Eventually I think that certain foods might give some other added benefit. I know that when I ride my bike and I run out of energy I eat some bread sticks, and instantly I have enegry (true). It's because the energy I"m burning is from carbohydrates, and bread is one of the best sources for it.
And that is a natural response of the body and has nothing to do with a fantasy realm.
)
Even if you do, you still eat do you not? If not then you must suffer the consequences, and this should definitely happen in illarion. Such ideas add to the roleplaying experience and atmosphere because they allow characters to actually "live" in a very real sense. How would YOU like it if illarion was an environment with no skills to gain, no magic, no spells, no monsters to fight, and nothing to make? That would make illarion not a graphical online RPG, but a common "RP" chatroom. I am sure noone would like that, and if you do that is very peculiar.
