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If you first allow the initial teachings by the mage teachers... the ancient book and an initial spell, some of the concerns will be avoided, and you will also have more teachers soon. This would also keep everyone from being able to do magic. Right now, it is rare to see compared to fighters and craftsmen.


For a specific suggestion, don't allow the NPC to do a quest or anything for the rune unless the char has two runes already, or has mana (if it can be scripted easier). If this can't be done, I believe there was a suggestion to maybe have the NPC only speak ancient? This may also solve the problem.

[rant]

pharse wrote:Does the current system work properly?
No.

Says the person who doesn't have a clue about whether it works. I don't know much about the other systems, but you don't see me sticking my nose into them. The problem with this is that everyone who has not managed to get a mage teacher (for whatever reason) is going to be like "Oh yeah gimme runes!" whereas the people who have managed to get a mage teacher will be like "The current system works perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with it and you guys don't have a clue because you've failed the interview with the teacher you applied to" or whatever circumstance it is.

It works just fine. And what would be the point of this "Yes, they still wouldn't be able to do anything useful, but they'd miss a few weeks of teaching". That's a really good system.

And the thing about magic being overpowered: It is true, that magic is very powerful, but there is no middle value in it. It can either be really strong, or really weak, depending on how much skill you have. e.g. until someone has 50% commotio, they cannot do any decent offensive spells. They have ridiculously weak ones. At that point, they have really strong spells. They say magic is for lazy people, but I don't think so. Magic is for those who are willing to not only spend hours to LEARN the runes, but hours to be able to USE them. It'd take me a good couple of minutes to take down your character right now Adrian .

@Keikan: It's not as straightforward as you saying, "Present your idea and I will implement the best", when there will be huge disagreements. Some say no teaching, some say teach some, some say teach level 1 runes, 2 runes, 3 runes; if you single out an idea and implement it, there will be a whoooole lot of flaming and a generally hostile attitude around this side of the community.

[/rant]

Here's an idea Keikan.

Runes: ra, hept, pen, mes, orl, cun, sav, solh, fhen, kah, lhor, kel, tah, taur, ura, ira, yeg, jus, sih, anth, sul, qwan dun pherc fhan luk lev require the character to do Meriel . Or be taught by a teacher. Or pay someone (not naming any names) for them.

Rune Bhona requires you to appease all the magic teachers and have all other runes.

Teachers get three apprentices and teach each 2 runes a week, but they must teach 7 out of:

ra, hept, pen, mes, orl, cun, sav, solh, fhen, kah, lhor

before they can learn the below runes

kel, tah, taur, ura, ira, yeg, jus, sih, anth, sul

then 5 of these before they can learn the below runes

qwan dun pherc fhan luk lev


Good idea eh? Oh wait, it's already implemented and works fine. I guess that you won't have to do any work then.

I don´t think that this topic is about whether a NPC magic teacher should be implemented or not, it´s rather about how this should be realized.

@Alex: I have no mage char nor have I the attitude to create one. So I am surely not that involved like you are, maestro.
But I have noticed enough complaints and displeasure from many players and staff members that I know that the current system doesn´t work properly.

--
Obviously my ideas are not worth writing them down, so I won´t waste my time.

hf&gl

I am just wondering how many of the current students are being taught 2 runes a week.

Ok, a more detailed proposal. This rune teacher speaks only in the ancient language. So you must have near perfect ancient, in order to communicate with him.

Before he will consent to teach you you must pay him 10 silver coins. Then you may receive quests for runes in a drop down menu, and you may select any rune. You may only be on one rune quest at a time.

He teaches all these runes, and these are the quests.

RA - fetch me 100 ashes
HEPT - fetch me 10 cut emeralds
PEN - do not speak for a whole day (of time logged in)
MES - run to the eldan monastery and back within the day (no portal allowed!)
ORL - fast for a day (of time logged in)
CUN - fetch me 30 buckets of water (obviously you dont have to give them to him all at once)
SAV - get an excellent wooden shield
SOLH - bring me 100 sand
FHEN - fetch me ten leather bags
KAH - bring me 100 apples and 100 cherries
LHOR - bring me something made of your own hand

I hope that is not too bad, I tried to make sure that the things were not too expensive, just mainly time consuming.

I don't lyke

this means that powergamers will learn runes faster

How about making a combination of items required to be brought, and perhaps some questions given to the char which need to be answered.
Questions that can be answered by reading the books about magic in the library.

Sorry, fact of the game is that powergamers do things faster.

Skaalib Drurr wrote:Ok, a more detailed proposal. - Finally.

This rune teacher speaks only in the ancient language. - Might be possible.

Before he will consent to teach you you must pay him 10 silver coins. - Possible.

Then you may receive quests for runes in a drop down menu, [...] - Impossible. -> You tell can tell the NPC what rune you are interested in after he told you what he can teach.

[...] you may select any rune. You may only be on one rune quest at a time. - Possible.

He teaches all these runes, and these are the quests.

RA - fetch me 100 ashes - Possible.
HEPT - fetch me 10 cut emeralds - Possible.
PEN - do not speak for a whole day (of time logged in) - Impossible.
MES - run to the eldan monastery and back within the day (no portal allowed!) - Impossible.
ORL - fast for a day (of time logged in) - Impossible.
CUN - fetch me 30 buckets of water (obviously you dont have to give them to him all at once) - Possible.
SAV - get an excellent wooden shield - - Possible, but quality is not readable.
SOLH - bring me 100 sand - Possible.
FHEN - fetch me ten leather bags - Possible.
KAH - bring me 100 apples and 100 cherries - Possible.
LHOR - bring me something made of your own hand - Impossible.

I hope that is not too bad, I tried to make sure that the things were not too expensive, just mainly time consuming. - Thats a proposal I can work with.

*Impossible = Impossible for me.

I want to see more posts like this.

I know nothing about the runes, so I can't say which runes to put and stuff like that.

But, for each rune you decide to include, you may also want to include a question as to what the rune refers to (what it means or whatever). As far as I know, there is a book which describes some of the runes.

Example:

NPC: RA is the rune of...?

Character must answer fire.

HEPT - Ice
PEN - Sprit, ghost, mind (?)

And so on. Someone who knows something about them might inform better.

Whoah ABC; that's a REALLY hard challenge.

And I thought of the Make teacher talk in ancient idea >_>

Keikan, the system is fine.

Huh? Really hard challenge? For whom? For making the NPC? For the character who has to reply?

Just to clarify something:
This teacher is meant for Newbies.

I don't want to see players who create mage characters wait for 6 month till they finally see them casting even the simplest spells.

This rune teacher speaks only in the ancient language.

Before he will consent to teach you you must pay him 10 silver coins.

- I don't agree with this, my char has had a max of 15 silver the entire time ig.

can tell the NPC what runes you are interested in after he told you what he can teach.

I may have missed this... but with this suggestion, the runes would be given in this order if possible to do:

FIRST:
PEN and MES runes-bring a special item that can get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital -a life root. Or can try to find one themselves.

(This has two purposes.... RP with another "profession" and possibly tying in the healing of both.)

SECOND:
ORL and KAH runes-20 sibinac leaves, and a fish filet dish

(this can be gotten going with a fighter to the trolls possibly easier then trying to pick and would encourage getting the PEN MES first to heal the fighter when going.. would also help with RP and make this item that the trolls drop worth getting,the second would encourage rp with a crafter.)

THIRD:
LHOR and HEPT-bring a colorful wizard hat, and three raw diamonds

(again would encourage RP with other chars and make some ig items more desired)

FIRST:
PEN and MES runes-bring a special item that can get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital -a life root. Or can try to find one themselves.

So the person goes to the desert and is then able to heal.

SECOND:
ORL and KAH runes-20 sibinac leaves, and a fish filet dish

(this can be gotten going with a fighter to the trolls possibly easier then trying to pick and would encourage getting the PEN MES first to heal the fighter when going.. would also help with RP and make this item that the trolls drop worth getting,the second would encourage rp with a crafter.)

So then you get a fishing rod, fish for 20 leaves and gives the fish to a cook with money. Why should mages have to be able to cook or buy fish filet dishes?

THIRD:
LHOR and HEPT-bring a colorful wizard hat, and three raw diamonds

So either learn to tailor or pay lots of money. And I've had about 30 diamonds but not 1 raw diamond before. So the person would have to mine, and tailor really well, or pay lots of money, or kill skeletons.

And why HEPT but not RA.

Colourful wizard's hat already has a use, it boosts magic better than any other hat.

Yes, thats what i fear, why don't give runes in the starter kit? I mean that would be the same as bring some talking clown a bunch of items.

Magic is fu***** mighty (if you know how to deal with also at very low level), especially spells like healing or illusion have a very great effect ingame, if you use them right. Actually we have a working teaching system, it works slowly, but it works. Only if you investing much good rp, you will get runes.

Just imagine that we have a bunch of new chars witch can cast the healing spell. We can close the hospital, and every fightinggroup will run around with a turbo healer. Two guys train and a 3rth stand at side and heals. That would be a real terrible imagine.

Well, I don't really like the idea of teaching by npc, as I believe it shouldn't be very common, and yes, this post is kind of off-topic.

Though, perhaps, go to a teacher, do an npc quest and then go back to the teacher who will give you your rune for just a little(to see if he is actually able to use it in a somewhat more responsible way, eg. won't run around casting shit at everyone.). Not many rules attached, just hang out with him for a little while and give him the rune without a big fuss.(Still would be the problem of less teachers though.).


Quests... uhm, well, puzzles would be cool I guess.


Perhaps you could get temporary use of a few runes(only in the cave where you need to get your rune), a fire dungeon for RA, where you get a maze with respawning flames, wich you have to douse using your temporary runes, same idea for an ice dungeon.

LHOR, if we're getting it, a mostly invisible path, through wich you have to find your way using a series of clues or such, or perhaps a little catch, as you find whatever you need to get the rune, a monster spawns and chases you, you need to make your way back over the path before it catches you and steals your object again(Quest status set back) and dissapears, and you have to retry, it'll naturally be slower than you, but will do the path right of course.

Well, my mother just yelled at me and said I have to eat, so I'll do that, hope I was somewhat helpfull.

And btw. i wand to remember that we had in the past NPC witch teach runes for quests, and it does not work.

You said this allready. Beside of pointless ranting you could put in some usefull input and a better solution for the current problem.

AlexRose wrote:

FIRST:
PEN and MES runes-bring a special item that can get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital -a life root. Or can try to find one themselves.

So the person goes to the desert and is then able to heal.

:Please read the original post:get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital

SECOND:
ORL and KAH runes-20 sibinac leaves, and a fish filet dish

(this can be gotten going with a fighter to the trolls possibly easier then trying to pick and would encourage getting the PEN MES first to heal the fighter when going.. would also help with RP and make this item that the trolls drop worth getting,the second would encourage rp with a crafter.)

So then you get a fishing rod, fish for 20 leaves and gives the fish to a cook with money. Why should mages have to be able to cook or buy fish filet dishes?

see reply above: " going with a fighter to the trolls" and buying from a cook, possibly trading something with the cook.

THIRD:
LHOR and HEPT-bring a colorful wizard hat, and three raw diamonds

So either learn to tailor or pay lots of money. And I've had about 30 diamonds but not 1 raw diamond before. So the person would have to mine, and tailor really well, or pay lots of money, or kill skeletons.

Or RP with a fighter char helping them

And why HEPT but not RA.

Colourful wizard's hat already has a use, it boosts magic better than any other hat.

I did not know about the colorful wizard's hat possibly use something a tailor would make that is not bought at present. The mage apprentice could either try to make themselves, buy it, or work out a trade (the later would make for a better RP time IMO)

_______________________________________________________
As one who has had two teachers ig no longer teach, and knowing another PO still waiting for a first rune after 8 months ig but being accepted into mage class, I disagree the magic system is fine as it is. Playing a char that you would like to RP as a mage right now is very discouraging in a game that is suppose to be fun to play.

Only if you investing much good rp, you will get runes

This idea does not take away from the initial teaching system. The char will still need to find a mage teacher for the ancient book, and to learn it. But will help those now that are waiting so long for runes. These chars can at least be able to RP mages.


Anyway, having been discouraged by the mage system for quite some time, even to the point of deleting one of my chars, I think this is a wonderful thing if it can be done and want to thank you Keikan for even considering it, whatever the outcome.

still /signed to Dji..

Anyway, if there has to be some NPC teaching runes, let these task the player needs to fulfill, something that involves RP, which keeps him busy walking arround and get to know the island..

How about this: The Rune can be made by the NPC, if you bring him the ingredients and some money to pay him for his work.

NPC: You want the Rune [add fire rune here] you need to learn the worth of fire. So bring me ashes, fire element, and some firestone and pay me ... 15 silvers..

blaaaa i know there are no such things as firestones in illa.. but well create them.. the can be mined in the volcano or something..

its just an example..
but look at the result: the newbie is driven to negotiate with some fighters to get the elemential and the back-up to harvest the firestone.. or he just earns a lot of money to buy them from other characters, but still at least one ingridient must be kinda hard to get so he needs to search arround a bit first.. you get meh point, folks?


anyhow, if this really has to be an npc teacher, the main parameter for this npc must be (IMHO):
teaching easy runes, without destroying any rp, or the worth of magic. getting a newbie involved in our wonderful roleplay, this is the maintarget of making things easier for a noob

I remember the times were we had NPC's witch teach runes, doesn't like it at all. No NPC need roleplay, and getting runes without any roleplay is a terrible thought.

More RP was generated for me within the first week of the guardians than when the academy has been open.

Nitram wrote:You said this allready. Beside of pointless ranting you could put in some usefull input and a better solution for the current problem.

I added with my post that the NPCs teach that runes for miniquests.

@Kaila: Surely it can be frustrating, if you don't getting runes and wand to play a mage. But please tell me, if you think it is a better alternative that every char, who wand to become a mage, is a mage. Than we will have at least 25% mages in Illarion. Surly it is good idea to say the NPCs speak only ancient, but i do think sadly there are some teachers ig, witch would teach ancient to fast.

Better solutions? Forgetting NPC-teachers and educate the players of magic teachers with carrot and stick. E.g. that they lose there teaching runes if they doesn't use it longer as a month, but if they had complete teaching a magic they get a little skill up.

Actually the teachers haven't real something from teaching a other player (except some nice rp), a fighter witch train a other one does it because he get skills by training.

Or make a skill witch push up the casting of magic a little bit, witch rise when you teach magic but witch fall with the time.

Simply make it more worthwhile for mages to teach, and make it bad for them, if they doesn't do it.

Kaila Galathil wrote:This rune teacher speaks only in the ancient language. - Might be possible

[...] the runes would be given in this order if possible to do:
- Runes can be given out in a specific order, or no order at all. Depends entirely on your proposal.

FIRST:
PEN and MES runes
-bring a special item that can get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital [...] - how can a NPC know this? Seems impossible.
-a life root. Or can try to find one themselves. - Possible.

SECOND:
ORL and KAH runes-20 sibinac leaves, and a fish filet dish - Possible.

THIRD:
LHOR and HEPT-bring a colorful wizard hat, and three raw diamonds - Possible.

Kaila Galathil wrote:[...]
I think this is a wonderful thing if it can be done and want to thank you Keikan for even considering it, whatever the outcome.

You're welcome, I got the tools from our Devs, namely Nitram and martin, so I guess its simply my call to put at least a little band aid on the magic system.
At least until it recives the complete overhaul it needs, whatever comes first.
(Yes this overhaul will happen. No matter how many write "/signed" here.)

Enwell van Illdoran wrote:anyhow, if this really has to be an npc teacher, the main parameter for this npc must be (IMHO):
teaching easy runes, without destroying any rp, or the worth of magic. getting a newbie involved in our wonderful roleplay, this is the maintarget of making things easier for a noob

Propose something.

Djironnyma wrote:I added with my post that the NPCs teach that runes for miniquests.

See:

Keikan Hiru wrote:Answers like "he needs to do a quest", are no answers at all.

Unless you discribe the quest that needs to be fullfilled, save your time.

Dji wrote:Simply make it more worthwhile for mages to teach, and make it bad for them, if they doesn't do it.

self bash?

only ancient speaking NPCs ->no, because "there are some teachers ig, witch would teach ancient to fast."

your "carrot and stick" method -> force teachers to teach many chars in a short time in order not to be punished resp. award them for doing so.

I can´t see the difference concerning your concerns <_<


Only ancient speaking NPCs are a good measure not to let every n00b learn magic.

Keikan Hiru wrote:

Djironnyma wrote:I added with my post that the NPCs teach that runes for miniquests.

See:

Keikan Hiru wrote:Answers like "he needs to do a quest", are no answers at all.

Unless you discribe the quest that needs to be fullfilled, save your time.

I don't talk about your idea i talk about the NPC teachers in the past. And see i already added a better solution, see above.

pharse wrote:

Dji wrote:Simply make it more worthwhile for mages to teach, and make it bad for them, if they doesn't do it.

self bash?

only ancient speaking NPCs ->no, because "there are some teachers ig, witch would teach ancient to fast."

your "carrot and stick" method -> force teachers to teach many chars in a short time in order not to be punished resp. award them for doing so.

I can´t see the difference concerning your concerns <_<


Only ancient speaking NPCs are a good measure not to let every n00b learn magic.

There are actually rules for teachers witch avoid that there doesn't teach to fast. The system of carrot and stick can't run to to fast teached runes in reason of these rules.

Kaila Galathil wrote:

AlexRose wrote:

FIRST:
PEN and MES runes-bring a special item that can get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital -a life root. Or can try to find one themselves.

So the person goes to the desert and is then able to heal.

:Please read the original post:get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital

Please read your own post. Who would go watch a druid when life roots are easily obtained?

SECOND:
ORL and KAH runes-20 sibinac leaves, and a fish filet dish

(this can be gotten going with a fighter to the trolls possibly easier then trying to pick and would encourage getting the PEN MES first to heal the fighter when going.. would also help with RP and make this item that the trolls drop worth getting,the second would encourage rp with a crafter.)

So then you get a fishing rod, fish for 20 leaves and gives the fish to a cook with money. Why should mages have to be able to cook or buy fish filet dishes?

see reply above: " going with a fighter to the trolls" and buying from a cook, possibly trading something with the cook.

Yes, because going with a fighter to the trolls and buying from cooks are very useful mage skills. And as *I* said; who would do that when they can just FISH for it? Your ideas are idealist, as if everyone who goes to get runes will WANT to rp

THIRD:
LHOR and HEPT-bring a colorful wizard hat, and three raw diamonds

So either learn to tailor or pay lots of money. And I've had about 30 diamonds but not 1 raw diamond before. So the person would have to mine, and tailor really well, or pay lots of money, or kill skeletons.

Or RP with a fighter char helping them

Oh yeah, I forgot that fighters could make wizard hats and materialize diamonds. How silly of me. And again, what does that have to do with magery?

And why HEPT but not RA?

Colourful wizard's hat already has a use, it boosts magic better than any other hat.

I did not know about the colorful wizard's hat possibly use something a tailor would make that is not bought at present. The mage apprentice could either try to make themselves, buy it, or work out a trade (the later would make for a better RP time IMO)

Yeah, let's turn magery into a new way for to make tailors with extremely high skill a little bit useful!

As one who has had two teachers ig no longer teach, and knowing another PO still waiting for a first rune after 8 months ig but being accepted into mage class, I disagree the magic system is fine as it is. Playing a char that you would like to RP as a mage right now is very discouraging in a game that is suppose to be fun to play.

And yet many get taught. Think there's a reason for that?

Only if you investing much good rp, you will get runes

This idea does not take away from the initial teaching system. The char will still need to find a mage teacher for the ancient book, and to learn it. But will help those now that are waiting so long for runes. These chars can at least be able to RP mages.

Actually it's not difficult to obtain a book of ancient, and people will share them. And people CAN rp magic. It's been around for ages, you don't NEED runes to rp it, it's even written on the magic section of the website that you may rp it. Why must you do learn runes to rp?

Anyway, having been discouraged by the mage system for quite some time, even to the point of deleting one of my chars, I think this is a wonderful thing if it can be done and want to thank you Keikan for even considering it, whatever the outcome.

So people can learn runes with little roleplay that are extremely useful, as Djironnyma said.

Gah, let me put it this way for some of the community:

JUST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE A TEACHER/YOUR TEACHER LEFT DOES NOT MEAN IT'S A BAD SYSTEM.

(Yes this overhaul will happen. No matter how many write "/signed" here.)

The reason there are so many /signed's is because some of us don't WANT or NEED a new system. Tell me what is wrong with the system, you said because mage characters have to wait a while, well maybe that's a good thing, especially if it's a newbie. Gives time for them to learn to rp. In fact, Karl created a mage character and got a teacher on his FIRST DAY so I don't know what you're talking about. Some people will not get runes, because they fail the interviews. That's their fault, if they can't pass an interview, that doesn't mean we should throw runes at them for no reason. And if these runes are so basic, why teach them at all? That just means they get a taste of power and go whinging for more hours to the magic teachers. This system is NOT beneficial, so I don't see why you are so defiant about making it.

Oh and also:

With MES PEN you can powergame your pervestigatio pretty damned well, easily enough that, with some equipment, can get you to summon flames as soon as you've got the runes for em. It'll just mean that people will be stupidly powerful as soon as they start out, especially if Kel's on there. They could kel ra/kel hept up to 50% commotio and then bam, as soon as they get qwan then they can own people. All they'd need is 1 rune from a teacher and they could make 2 extremely powerful spells. Is that what we want? If they get the runes from their teacher, they'll have had much more lessons before they can actually cast any very good spells. This way should be preferred, surely?

JUST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE A TEACHER/YOUR TEACHER LEFT DOES NOT MEAN IT'S A BAD SYSTEM.

It does.
It means that the supposedly 'working' system, really isn't working so much after all.
As Keikan already said anyway, it'll be getting overhauled either way.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=24481

go there and write as much as you like. But stop spamming this topic with off-topic comments. Thank you very much.

Keikan Hiru wrote:

Kaila Galathil wrote:This rune teacher speaks only in the ancient language. - Might be possible

The thought here is the char would initially have to go to and find a mage teacher. This would more then likely stop the creation of every char ig being a mage....and would make sure the PO is at least a fair RPer. The rest would have to be up to the mage teachers. They would still be able to use their judgement on which chars would be good mages. If this can't be done, then I would suggest possibly something entirely new to have in hand that can only be given by a teacher before they can get their first rune.
[...] the runes would be given in this order if possible to do:
- Runes can be given out in a specific order, or no order at all. Depends entirely on your proposal.

Thank you, this proposal then, the runes would have to be given in this order:
FIRST:
PEN and MES runes
-bring a special item that can get from a Druid having watched one heal at the hospital [...] - how can a NPC know this? Seems impossible.

The NPC's wouldn't know, only that they brought to them a life root, the rest would be up to the apprentice char and if they decide to go to them, the druids
-a life root. Or can try to find one themselves. - Possible.

SECOND:
ORL and KAH runes-20 sibinac leaves, and a fish filet dish - Possible.

THIRD:
LHOR and HEPT-bring a colorful wizard hat, and three raw diamonds - Possible.

Kaila Galathil wrote:[...]
I think this is a wonderful thing if it can be done and want to thank you Keikan for even considering it, whatever the outcome.

You're welcome, I got the tools from our Devs, namely Nitram and martin, so I guess its simply my call to put at least a little band aid on the magic system.
At least until it recives the complete overhaul it needs, whatever comes first.
(Yes this overhaul will happen. No matter how many write "/signed" here.)

Thank you Nitram and Martin also

@Kaila: Surely it can be frustrating, if you don't getting runes and wand to play a mage. But please tell me, if you think it is a better alternative that every char, who wand to become a mage, is a mage. Than we will have at least 25% mages in Illarion. Surly it is good idea to say the NPCs speak only ancient, but i do think sadly there are some teachers ig, witch would teach ancient to fast.

Dij, IMO if there is a requirement to still have to see a mage teacher first, that will address the concerns of non-RPer mages, and also too many mages. If there are some teacher ig would teach ancient too fast, then maybe that would need to be addressed at the academy?

I like some of your other ideas however, as far as rewarding mage teachers.