Balance of Weapons

[AlexRose]

Staffs are two handed weapons, as duscussed before two handed weapons are weak. plus the other staffs are absolutely useless.

A mage might disagree... Some staffs have nice effects.

By the way, there are useful concussion weapons, I know at least 2 of them who outstand most slashing weapons. Also, characters with the right attributes are able to deliver alot of damage with two handed weapons, they are not that useless at all.

Umm... only mage staffs can be used for spells you realise?

[Estralis Seborian]

The kewl concussion weapons I am talking about are dropped by monsters, thus, they are available. Not sure if one can craft them, though. In fact, they outstand most slashing weapons in terms of stats afaik.

The staffs I am referring to are non-wand-staffs who grant magical boni. There are lots of them around. They are not useless but I'd take a wand if I'd have one.

[Arameh]

I have no idea of the great concussion weapons you talk, might enlightening us?

[Salathe]

i remember morning stars used to be insanely strong, way more than any sword. Is this still the case?

[Lance Thunnigan]

i remember morning stars used to be insanely strong, way more than any sword. Is this still the case?

I dunno, but I remember that too. Have a new character with lightblue slashing and kill a non-newb character pretty easily.

[Lrmy]

They are not even worth using now. Morning stars that is.

[Fooser]

Warhammers use to be pretty hot, werent they?

[Arameh]

The weapons I know in concussion are staves, wands, maces, morning stars and war hammers, and all of those are weaker than using magical longswords currently, as far as I know

[AlexRose]

Warhammers use to be pretty hot, werent they?

Yeah, all the orcs used em.

[Salathe]

this game needs some sort of preqequisites for using certain items... such as skill lvl, or having certain attributes... I know its supposed to be an open game, but this is too open of a game. Since this is supposed to be a RP game without any technical sides open to the players, it makes alot of things VERY unclear to the players such as how good certain weapons are. It is even unclear to smiths like myself. Logically you think that you learn items according to how good they are but in my experiences that wasnt the case, sometimes the last item i would learn wouldnt be the best at all, i remember that lor angur armors turned out to be alot weaker than i thought, and salkamaerian armor turned out to be alot stronger than i thought.

Some sort of way to see the technical sides of certain things would be great for this game. And though i dont think it will ever happen, i would also like to see preequisites for certain weapons. Such as having certain attributes to use a powerful weapon, and certain skills to use them. And have books in the library state how to use them. Or someone who is already skilled with that weapon able to teach someone how to use them.

I know magic has prerequisites for spells (or atleast used to), such as having certain int to learn certain spells. I would like that for armors and weapons.

i cant really say what i have in my head clearly... hopefully you guys can understand what im trying to get across...

[Arameh]

I agree with Salathe, it gets quite annoying when we see some very thin character walking around wearing the heaviest armor and carrying very heavy weapons. Maybe strenght, constitution and skill could make so certain weapons or unavaible for certain characters, so that a character with 4 constitution cant wear a heavy armor and a character with 4 strenght cant swing some war hammer. It is also true that we can hardly know which item is better than the other, we can find out with weapon a little easier but for armors its about completely impossible.

[Cuthalion]

I agree too, but I think balancing the weaopns system should have first priority. If it really is this unbalanced, it should be fixed before anything else I think.

[Estralis Seborian]

I hope all of you are aware that the current fighting system favours fitting attributes for each kind of weapon. A clumsy ogre will suck at fighting with a dagger while a swift rogue will do more damage with a toothpick than a halberd. At least the theory says so If this is not the case, modifications of the current systems are possible while I assume introducing technical restrictions in terms of minimum skills and attributes for items are alot of work that introduce limits to this game. Do you really want more limits?

[Salathe]

Estralis, i dont think many players are aware of that... This is another problem i have with this game... there are no good explanations of attributes anywhere. All there is to look at are the ROLEPLAY explanation fo attributes in the newbie forum, but these are no good to understand what the attributes are really good for. And im sure that very very few players are aware that attributes, instead of skill, play a specific role in how well your character is at using different weapons.

I find many problems here...

players do not know what attributes really do... just a very vague roleplay reason...
players do not know how attributes pertain to using certain weapons... (assuming they know that attributes DO pertain to using certain weapons..)
players do not know how strong one weapon is...
and it seems that the actual skill has little to do with actual the fighting...

What i get from your post estralis is that the weapons are perfectly balanced, its just that we arent using them correctly with attributes... Well i think that players should not be left in the dark and that there should be an explanation of how weapons are correctly used.

[abcfantasy]

yeah i think the balancing should be done...

my char certainly prefers to fight with a sword and a shield, but always gets a disadvantage when duelling with someone using 2 swords.

all the warriors on gobiath are ending up wielding 2 swords, and it's sad.

I hope at least this goes under the ToDo list or something.

[Hu'greu]

I dont know I kinda enjoy not knowing for sure. Why not make a Roleplay reason for your character to use that type of weapon. Its what I done with Hu'greu. The game isnt about maxing out your killing effectiveness either you know

[Salathe]

yes but as a player you want to be able to know how to play. It sucks to not know how to play the game correctly and not understand the technical aspects of the game

[Stuikerd]

and like if you want to duel someone. your in a big disadvantage

[Cuthalion]

yes but as a player you want to be able to know how to play. It sucks to not know how to play the game correctly and not understand the technical aspects of the game

I think you focus a little to much on how to best kill Salathe. The atributes are rather logical. Or most are. Willpower and esscene might be a bit hard though, but the others should be ok to understand. Dexterity is how well you use daggers, and how well you do things with your hands mainly.
That is about what you need to understand I think.

[Cuthalion]

One thing though. sry for the double post.
I thought agility was how fast you run, and not only how fast you fight. however, my 18 agility char, is not any faster than most. Not even when wearing no armor at all.

[abcfantasy]

true that's a pity...
i mean...everyone will run with the same speed...but i would imagine an elf to be faster than a dwarf...especially if the dwarf is wearing some thick heavy armor...
and if that elf would have to attack that dwarf and run...maybe the elf wouldn't be able to escape him which would be unreal...

[Skaalib Drurr]

I ask you Cuthalion. What is a weapon meant to be for? To hurt, to kill, and it is only natural players will look for the most powerful weapon, for that very reason.
You could say it focusses too much on killing, but there is no point in even having other weapons then, because everyone else has an advantage over you.

[Salathe]

you say dexterity is how well you are with with daggers... then you say it is how well you are with your hands... all weapons require the use of hands, so does this skill only help with daggers or all weapons since they are used with your hands? And exactly how does this happen technically? Does is make you attack faster since you are good with your hands? That sounds like agilities job. Does it make your attacks stronger since you have good hands? That sounds like strengths job. Or maybe it has nothing to do with weapons and it helps with using a shield? So it helps parrying? Or maybe it is solely used for hand to hand combat since it is for hand usage. It is also that it is useful for crafting and not fighting.

Yes it is a clear roleplay reason that is given to the players... but how they are used in the technical aspects is not clear at all.

and of course willpower and essence cant even be interpreted into a technical aspect of the game at all with the RP explanations that were given.

but i ask for the exact use of attributes here because i am now told that attributes are important for different weapons. And i understand from estralis' post that they are balanced already, but we arent using them correctly... so to reach the solution the players need to know how this stuff works

[Cuthalion]

Of course you would try go looking for what weapon you are good with, but you could not stand picking abilities at birth, that suits you the best. Allso, the char should find out ingame what weapons he is best using, and then pick them.

Now I ask you Skalib, is it a reason why you allways start paying attention to a thread when I post somthing?

[Arameh]

Of course you would try go looking for what weapon you are good with, but you could not stand picking abilities at birth, that suits you the best. Allso, the char should find out ingame what weapons he is best using, and then pick them.

Now I ask you Skalib, is it a reason why you allways start paying attention to a thread when I post somthing?

...?

We cant know which weapons our character is better with if they are not balanced.

[Estralis Seborian]

players do not know what attributes really do... just a very vague roleplay reason...
players do not know how attributes pertain to using certain weapons... (assuming they know that attributes DO pertain to using certain weapons..)
players do not know how strong one weapon is...
and it seems that the actual skill has little to do with actual the fighting...

Nah, I don't think the weapons are balanced perfectly, it took me 10 seconds to find a couple of inbalances in the list I have. If anybody with the skills to change that reads this, take a look at wp_range of ID 231 and 2737, or at wp_poison of 2784.

I had the chance to take a look at the current fighting script and I guess nobody will kill me if I reveal that the following attributes have an influence on fighting: STR, DEX, AGI, PER and CON. Depending on the type of weapon, the focus differs. Huge weapons favour strong fighters (STR) while swift weapons (daggers) require more DEX and AGI. PER is useful for distance weapons and melee as well. CON reduces damage. But that is common sense, ESS and INT will not help you to pwn a demon. Also, the skill affects fighting alot, but it is not the only influence.

Concerning the "how good is a weapon" topic: What do you think about some kind of identification system? A method that produces texts like this: "This is a serinjahsword. [Random gibberish about the history of swords in the serinja culture]. It is a rather/very/extremely swift/clumsy weapon that deals huge/alot/moderate/slight slashing damage. Parrying blows with this weapon is easy/challenging/almost impossible."

[Skaalib Drurr]

I agree with the point, FOIG. utterly. And actually agility does make quite a large difference when running on mountain ground. Or so I'm told.
And cuthalion, that really is a petty comment, I always read all threads on all boards but off-topic.

[Cuthalion]

it is both weapons and crafting as far as I understand. Simply because a dagger is a small weapon, and how well you can move your hand is very important. I think it makes a small diference when using a blade to, but not any near as much as when using a dagger. Agility is how quickly you move and so on. Tecnical aspect are pretty much the same. imagine you being a strong guy. you would pick a heavy weapon, not a dagger, right? Imagine you being very dexteriuos, but weak, you would pick a light weapon, right?

[Cuthalion]

Of course you would try go looking for what weapon you are good with, but you could not stand picking abilities at birth, that suits you the best. Allso, the char should find out ingame what weapons he is best using, and then pick them.

Now I ask you Skalib, is it a reason why you allways start paying attention to a thread when I post somthing?

...?

We cant know which weapons our character is better with if they are not balanced.

Exactly the problem:) I agree.

[Hu'greu]

humm doesnt sound bad, but who will give the idenifcation of the weapon.